@RiotRepertoir How about Pantheon?

healinglolz·Aug 11, 2015·3 votes·3,481 views

Are you going to return his old AS scaling or atleast give his something, which will make his late game decent, cuz right now pantheon can go full ad and be able to oneshot people, BUT in high elo people just stun lock him and oneshot him before he can even use spell, hybrid pantheon could work aswell, but this pantheon dont have the potencial to kill somebody from 100 to 0 and can be kited without problems and the final build is jungle -> full tank, who protects the adc whole game, this is the only one build which works in high elo, but still it sucks you are just 1 peel tank without any dmg

33 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 12, 20157 votes

still it sucks you are just 1 peel tank without any dmg

I'm not a big Pantheon player, but my impression of him has always been that's an early game snowballer that tries to end thing early, and then falls back to more of a tank/peel pattern in the late game if he isn't ahead. What sucks about that being his end-game role? What would you like his power curve or late game role to look like? And what's missing from allowing that to happen that wouldn't just boost his already-strong early game?

BeoridasAug 12, 20154 votes

i think his case is a bit complicated. He is the artisan of war. what does that even mean? your sentiment is rather true. But he has been nerfed that a crushing majority felt as undeserved. He has A LOT of weaknesses, few strenghts (that are good mind you) Its hard to snowball while being very mana hungry--which leads to superficial purchases.

healinglolzAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not a big Pantheon player, but my impression of him has always been that's an early game snowballer that tries to end thing early, and then falls back to more of a tank/peel pattern in the late game if he isn't ahead. What sucks about that being his end-game role? What would you like his power curve or late game role to look like? And what's missing from allowing that to happen that wouldn't just boost his already-strong early game?

Alright lets start with pantheon problems, if the opposite top/mid laner stays passive and farm under his turrent there is no way to kill him, also most of times if you try to kill him under the turret enemy jungler is waiting for you and kill you, most of champs have problems only pre 6 after 6 they can kill panth 1v1 and since blackcleaver change pantheon early game is slowed even more, now we need tiamat for the power spike and it cost almost 600 more gold then brutaliser(old power spike), now lets move to the spells, pantheon has useless Q late game, 1 sec stun, E which makes some dmg and bugged ult which takes 4.5 sec to finish instead the 3,5 from the tooltip If you ask me how pantheon can be changed, pantheon spells to scale with total ad and to balance panth cds can be increased and also these ult buggs to be fixed What else, hmm W stun can be increased from 1 sec to 1,1/1,2/1,3/1,4/1,5 also the range can be increased or atleast the spell to allow pantheon to jump on wards/allys or even to be a dash/jump/skillshot and if pantheon hit an enemy to stun him At the end i would prefer weaker early game which can be achieved with the long cds early and pantheon spells to have good scaling late game, his power curve will be for example hydra cleaver and lw and his late game will look like current one, but he will have enough dmg to kill somebody and dont die in the same second this can be achieved if his E makes him immune to ccs and to give him 50% reduced damage taken at max rank or something like this the cds could be something like q -> 12 10 8 6 4 e -> 14 12 10 8 6

LeonDemonOfDeathAug 12, 20151 votes

Please don't do anything about Pantheon. Trust me when I say this, the only people who don't hate him abuse him.

healinglolzAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Please don't do anything about Pantheon. Trust me when I say this, the only people who don't hate him abuse him.

Can you explain me how pantheon can be abused late game? Cuz in most casses they are abusing early game and hope for 20-25 min surrender from the opposite team xD

JefftiffyAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Can you explain me how pantheon can be abused late game? Cuz in most casses they are abusing early game and hope for 20-25 min surrender from the opposite team xD

That has alway been the case. I have never heard of late game pantheon other than catching a carry alone and killing it for being out of place or for the split push that was in one of the LCS games in S4???

healinglolzAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That has alway been the case. I have never heard of late game pantheon other than catching a carry alone and killing it for being out of place or for the split push that was in one of the LCS games in S4???

And cuz of this LCS they take out this from panth, pantheon no longer can use spells while he is falling = impossible to catch adc when he wants ;( Before opposite team were seeing the circle and 0,5 sec later pantheon were on top of the adc apc and oneshoting it, but now days the circle stays for like 2,5 sec and everybdoy can move out of it

KingsgraveAug 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'm not a big Pantheon player, but my impression of him has always been that's an early game snowballer that tries to end thing early, and then falls back to more of a tank/peel pattern in the late game if he isn't ahead. What sucks about that being his end-game role? What would you like his power curve or late game role to look like? And what's missing from allowing that to happen that wouldn't just boost his already-strong early game?

I'd like if his Q and E were Total AD scalings so he could go tankier without being useless.

healinglolzAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'd like if his Q and E were Total AD scalings so he could go tankier without being useless.

yep, if they do this it will be perfect :))

TURBO 5OOOAug 12, 20151 votes

Just dont touch my pantheon and ignore Pantheon threads :<

Variks the LoyalAug 13, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I'm not a big Pantheon player, but my impression of him has always been that's an early game snowballer that tries to end thing early, and then falls back to more of a tank/peel pattern in the late game if he isn't ahead. What sucks about that being his end-game role? What would you like his power curve or late game role to look like? And what's missing from allowing that to happen that wouldn't just boost his already-strong early game?

I'll throw my two cents in. I used to play a LOT of Pantheon, but stopped in Season 4, around when Kha'Zix fell out of favor.

He's very perplexing, as a champion. He plays like a 'light fighter'; according to his playstyle, I'd say he's a tankier version of champions like Riven, Yasuo, and Fiora - Very fast and very mobile, but he trades sustained damage for extra tankiness, while retaining burst. He's a champion who didn't really benefit from the Black Cleaver rework. Brutalizer is a perfect rush item, but Youmuu's isn't that great on him.

I think this stems from the fact that Pantheon was built to be an Assassin. Assassin was his old tag, rather than Fighter, and I think his kit may have been based around that. His tag got changed based not on changes to him, but on how people were building him. He, imo, would have been a much better champion for the Juggernaut reworks than Skarner.

His auto attacks aren't really that effective, since he's going to be channeling Heartseeker Strike and casting Spear Shot most of the time. This makes items like Bloodthirster and Ravenous Hydra less effective on him, because he doesn't AA much. That said, there aren't that many items he can build. Black Cleaver used to be a mainstay, but that got changed. Last Whisper is good, but he often lacks the AD to back it up. I see some build Manamune/Muramana, to help his mana issues, but he stacks tear extremely slowly. I think, with Pantheon, it's more of an itemization issue than a champion issue. I think Dead Man's Plate may help him a bit (Now I want to go try that...), as will Sterak's Gage. Not Titanic Hydra, though.

So, yeah. He's perplexing. if I were to change him... I would rework him. Visually as well. But, in the absence of that, I'd lower his mana costs, on his W and E. Not on his Q, so he can't just spam Spear Shot ALL day without pots. A higher base Mana pool would help, too. Lower the channel time on his ult - I remember there was a big proposed change to his ult a while back, significantly reducing the range and cast time. I think something similar, but just with a _small _ cast time reduction (I'm talking .5 seconds here), would be good. They can nerf the damage on it too, no one uses it for it's damage, and in taking away some of that power, he can be given some elsewhere.

Here's a thought... What if his E applied on-hit effects? This would essentially make it a replacement component for his AA's. He gains the benefit of increased damage and range while channeling, but loses his ability to move (And maybe also loses the ability to block attacks with his passive while channeling?). It would make him benefit MUCH more from Life Steal, and open him up to items like Blade of the Ruined King and Wit's End. He would still be rewarded for leveling Q first, since it does more damage by itself, and have E leveled by the time he has 1 & 1/2 on-hit items completed.

One last thing I'd like to talk about is his fantasy. When I think of Pantheon, I think of a warrior, but a different sort than, say, Olaf or Darius or Sion. Pantheon has a cool head, so, if he were reworked, he wouldn't have any 'rage' themes. He's a soldier, but a soldier in an army of warriors. He's fast and agile, but his shield permits him to be durable. He can fight an army of average soldiers almost on his own. I'd say he'd fit perfectly into the Juggernaut role, as one that trades some tankiness for increased mobility. He also serves as a potential point of religious worship in LoL, which is something that is very absent. He could worship the Sun, since the Solari lead the Rakkoran people, and disdain the Lunari. There's also potential for stories where he believes the Solari have become decadent and complacent (Perhaps the Solari have the finest foods on all of Mount Targon, while the Rakkoran commonfolk are suffering from food shortage), and begins to doubt his faith, maybe even coming into conflict with his childhood friend, Leona.

healinglolzAug 13, 20151 votes

Great idea, will be interesting to see this new E and the lower mana costs/base mana increase will be great aswell :) And about the ult it must be 2 sec jump 1,5 fall, but currently it is bugged and both "phases" are taking 2 sec each! Also if they can createa new items, which can be builded from brutaliser will be really good for example, they be something like brutaliser + BF + kindlegem or any other HP item and the item to have 80 AD 300-400 HP 20 armor pen 20% cdr or they can make Brutaliser + Pickaxe + Vampiric Scepter, the stats could be something like 75-80 AD 10% live steal 20 armor pen 20% cdr And also in order to balance the stuffs, people will be limited to 1 item which can be build from brutaliser, like the current jungle items :) PS the recipes/stats from above can be different, i just wrote few rough ideas, which will allow panth or any other champ who rush brutaliser to have something strong which can be builded from it and to boost his early-mid game

LuggAug 12, 20155 votes

I just wish Riot would fix his ult. It takes FOREVER to cast and to land.

GloriousKaiserAug 12, 20151 votes

If it was faster, his ganking potential would only increase. Being able to come far away AND without having to be detected by wards is powerful in itself. I don't think Riot wants pantheon to turn bot battles into 2 v 3 in the blink of an eye.

healinglolzAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If it was faster, his ganking potential would only increase. Being able to come far away AND without having to be detected by wards is powerful in itself. I don't think Riot wants pantheon to turn bot battles into 2 v 3 in the blink of an eye.

currently is it is bugged anyways, and this ult can be countered really easy with simple TP from the top lane or shen picks, and keep it in mind that for 1,5(right now it falling part is 2 sec and it should be 1,5, tooltip says it xD) sec players can go out of the circle easily

LuggAug 12, 20152 votes

It takes 2 or more seconds to launch and 2 seconds to land. That is an eternity in League.

LeonDemonOfDeathAug 12, 20151 votes

Yet some players cant even run away in those 2 seconds, you have to realize pantheon is incredibly fast.

GloriousKaiserAug 13, 20151 votes

Both you and Lugg speak true. A basic Leona combo can let Pantheon come in and get a double kill. Yet at the same time, Running away from the circle is not hard and takes like 0.5 seconds. Besides that time window gives chance for a counter attack of positioning is a big factor in this fight.

healinglolzAug 13, 20152 votes

Also there is few more disgusting stuffs regarding the ult, if the enemy team pick a chamption which has aoe stun, trap, chompers or w/e he can place it in the middle of panth's ult and stun/root him there, his enemies wont take any damage and most likely panteon will die, cuz he wont be close to his team!

LuggAug 13, 20151 votes

Absolutely. The Panth ult is a death trap for him half the time. If I have any CC, I use it right when he lands since you have plenty of notice.

RebonackAug 12, 20153 votes

Easy fix?

Make him into an actual Assassin. Reduce Ult AoE and range, targeted, hits the primary target and deals damage in the area around them. Jumps instantly, becoming untargetable, takes two seconds to land, Ult becomes visible at one second in. Play pattern would become W in and drop your combo, use the Ult to break focus and force the enemy team to back away from your target to avoid getting stomped. Crash back down with your spells coming off cooldown for a second rotation.

Panth transitions into a Fighter later in the game because he lacks any means to break focus on himself. The impression I'm getting is that people want him to play more like an Assassin. If that's the case, then the above would do it.

healinglolzAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Easy fix?

Make him into an actual Assassin. Reduce Ult AoE and range, targeted, hits the primary target and deals damage in the area around them. Jumps instantly, becoming untargetable, takes two seconds to land, Ult becomes visible at one second in. Play pattern would become W in and drop your combo, use the Ult to break focus and force the enemy team to back away from your target to avoid getting stomped. Crash back down with your spells coming off cooldown for a second rotation.

Panth transitions into a Fighter later in the game because he lacks any means to break focus on himself. The impression I'm getting is that people want him to play more like an Assassin. If that's the case, then the above would do it.

really good idea and if they make Q and E to scale with totall AD, pantheon will be a great champion :P

pripustasAug 12, 20152 votes

His ult is almost useless. The only use of it is to land behind the enemy, because if they see the circle they will run, and there is no way to catch them after that. If Riot would to remove the damage on his ult, nothing would change. Also the cast time is so long, that teamfight is usually over by the time you land.

Troy242621Aug 11, 20151 votes

I usually go Warriors>BC>LW>Tank, then just peel for the ADC and shred their frontline.

healinglolzAug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I usually go Warriors>BC>LW>Tank, then just peel for the ADC and shred their frontline.

and how do you survive with just 2 tank items x?

Troy242621Aug 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

and how do you survive with just 2 tank items x?

By not standing on the front line. It's unlikely they'll focus me over the ADC, and if they do, the ADC will kill them regardless. The problem comes when the ADC positions like a moro-Someone who could probably position better than they do.

TURBO 5OOOAug 12, 20151 votes

dont initiate as Pantheon. Ult behind the enemies if smth will start. If u are rly fed u can initiate. Always buy full assassin and last item tanky.

healinglolzAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

dont initiate as Pantheon. Ult behind the enemies if smth will start. If u are rly fed u can initiate. Always buy full assassin and last item tanky.

Ye and when you behind the enemies your team most of the times will simple leave you, let you die in less then 1 sec and start flame you for ulting

TURBO 5OOOAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ye and when you behind the enemies your team most of the times will simple leave you, let you die in less then 1 sec and start flame you for ulting

You have to know when and when not

healinglolzAug 13, 20151 votes

So yeah RIOT at the end, why you just removed the pantheon "bug", which were allowing him to make damage while he is falling, but you didnt removed the aoe stuns which can stun pantheon while he is falling(he cant be seen on the screen ... now days) and also can you expalin me why the falling duration is 2 sec when the tooltip is saying 1,5? Dont you think that this is a huge bug, which makes pantheon ult even harder to place and actually catch somebody? And also the game changed alot nowdays every champ is highly mobile, the ult must be reworked, check Rebonack idea it is really good !

Variks the LoyalAug 13, 20151 votes

Yeah, I just played a game as Panth...

Wow. His mana costs are WAAAAY too crippling for an early game AD Caster. He needs to use his abilities to clear the jungle or establish lane dominance... But it leaves you with no mana when you need it. My lack of mana during a level 4, mid lane skirmish gave the enemy Xin Zhao a triple, and let him snowball from there (I had no mana because I hadn't even recalled yet).

His jungle sustain is actually incredibly good. Didn't use a potion and didn't go below half HP. But that was only because I used my Spear Shot every CD, which let my passive come up faster, and block more monster damage. That left me with no mana during fights and skirmishes.

So, yeah. He needs more mana.

RebonackAug 13, 20151 votes

Something as simple as making CDR boots build out of Forbidden Idol and Boots of Speed could help Panth tremendously. He likes CDR and could use a source of MP/5.

Troy242621Aug 14, 20151 votes

Pantheon's biggest problem is that RekSai exists. She is more mobile, also has global mobility and honestly is just better.

Pantheon falls off really hard, even just mid game. Honestly his early game just doesn't justify him as a pick. For global pressure you'd just pick Rek'Sai,...