4th Sorcery Keystone Concept

DW Diana··4 votes·1,831 views

Hi,

So was thinking around this. A lot are missing DFT, and while we know this will never come back (it isn't interactive enough) I was thinking of other options and think this might be worth a look.

So first off, the word interactive in the current runes seems to mean "damage with 3 separate abilities/AA's" or "use a hard CC" to set it off. On that basis I'm going to stick with the "use 3 abilities" thing as this is more suitable for the audience the rune is meant for (primarily mages though others could also see benefit). Secondly I like the idea of having some counterplay to it (i know several other runes lack this, but I still feel it is important). Lastly this is a rune DESIGNED for mages that currently find themselves either without a relevant keystone so just take something like Arey, or as a Mage equivalent to Electrocute. Though it will no doubt fit many other champions, I feel we should all understand the target audience (much like Electrocute is meant to be for assassin's but is kinda getting used by a lot of others right now, while comet is meant for mages but far more popular on AD champions with an inherent slow)

With this in mind, and hopefully with not too much prejudice already created, here is my suggestion:

Necrotic Cyst

Abilities generate stacks on enemy champions hit, up to one per cast. Applying 3 stacks to a target within a 5 second period causes them to grow a Necrotic Cyst for 5 seconds. Damage done to a champion with a cyst will cause it to grow, slowing them for 10% per 100 damage done (max 30%). After 5 seconds has elapsed, the cyst bursts, doing the target 35% of the damage taken from you while the cyst was active as magic damage.

Cooldown: 30 - 15 seconds (based on level).

So the idea is you hit them 3 times and then unleash your ult/ignite/ anything you have and then they explode at the end in a Zed ult style mess. The fact you have to use abilities will make most champions it wasn't meant for avoid it, and also limit the damage that can be done with it on mages that do huge burst anyway. For those that have a more delayed damage style however and lack the "frontloaded" damage that others get as standard, this will be a very strong option for them (as DFT was in the past).

-- Loki --

Edit: Added "from you" to the damage proc to clarify the damage is not based on damage from other champions. Damaging items and runes will still apply to this as long as you are their source.

12 Comments

Malak1 votes

interesting idea but that name is nasty af

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

interesting idea but that name is nasty af

I really couldn't think of anything and wanted it to be kinda "dark magic" style. It's an old spell from D&D 3.5 and seemed to fit the concept xD Open to alternatives though :P

Anu3isII1 votes

Just spitballing:

Devouring Flame Cursed Touch Soul Devourer Mist of the Scourge Hellfire Tormenting Hex Grasp of the Damned

I know some of those are fire-related, in their case the fire would grow more and more visible with time until they create an explosion. And maybe make them dark-violet flames? Or even green would look great!

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Just spitballing:

Devouring Flame Cursed Touch Soul Devourer Mist of the Scourge Hellfire Tormenting Hex Grasp of the Damned

I know some of those are fire-related, in their case the fire would grow more and more visible with time until they create an explosion. And maybe make them dark-violet flames? Or even green would look great!

Yeah I wanted to avoid fire. It's not brands passive lol

Devouring Corruption could work though xD

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Just spitballing:

Devouring Flame Cursed Touch Soul Devourer Mist of the Scourge Hellfire Tormenting Hex Grasp of the Damned

I know some of those are fire-related, in their case the fire would grow more and more visible with time until they create an explosion. And maybe make them dark-violet flames? Or even green would look great!

Devouring flame would be super cool.

@thread Why do you want an overloaded 3 hit passive?

IMO... "Enemy champions hit by two or more instances of ability damage dealt within 1 second deals 20% of its damage as damage over time every half a second"

Works on battle mages, works on bruisers, works technically on marksmen... But it works well on DoT users.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Devouring flame would be super cool.

@thread Why do you want an overloaded 3 hit passive?

IMO... "Enemy champions hit by two or more instances of ability damage dealt within 1 second deals 20% of its damage as damage over time every half a second"

Works on battle mages, works on bruisers, works technically on marksmen... But it works well on DoT users.

I get this, but the whole problem with DFT from Riot's point of view is that it wasn't "interactive" and "was just a boost to damage" so by making it 3 abilities to proc, it fit's with riot's "interactive means 3" while still benefiting those that would want to use it. DoT users especially benefit from the rune as a lot of their damage comes AFTER the ability has hit, meaning that 35% ending would be much higher on them (especially with items like Liandry's as Beatrice pointed out). It also prevents champions like Zed from abusing it as most of their damage is done in the first 3 hits and it doesn't work off AA's so they'd actually have to HIT their abilities (shock shock, horror horror!) meaning they are unlikely to use it like a second mini ult (you know, that ult they don't actually need xD).

In this way I've ensured it's niche is to those that NEED it rather then making it viable for everyone as this again seems to be Riot's process, even if that means leaving a load of champions without a relevant keystone for A YEAR....

As far as the name goes, I am purposefully avoiding anything to do with flames or fire as this isn't a Brand designed rune or a new DFT, it's just designed for those that USED to use DFT.

However Devouring Corruption could work... xD

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fm1p0sOT,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-08-10T09:56:00.427+0000)

I get this, but the whole problem with DFT from Riot's point of view is that it wasn't "interactive" and "was just a boost to damage" so by making it 3 abilities to proc, it fit's with riot's "interactive means 3" while still benefiting those that would want to use it. DoT users especially benefit from the rune as a lot of their damage comes AFTER the ability has hit, meaning that 35% ending would be much higher on them. It also prevents champions like Zed from abusing it as most of their damage is done in the first 3 hits and it doesn't work off AA's so they'd actually have to HIT their abilities (shock shock, horror horror!)

In this way I've ensured it's niche is to those that NEED it rather then making it viable for everyone as this again seems to be Riot's process, even if that means leaving a load of champions without a relevant keystone for A YEAR....

DFT was also incredibly general and could be used effectively on almost everyone.
What youve suggested is a damage bloat that is super strong on all levels.

Its a slow. Its a huge amount of delayed damage. It benefits battle mages and assassins massively. Its cooldown lets it always be up for a trade...

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

DFT was also incredibly general and could be used effectively on almost everyone.

Actually it was very niche, with only a few benefiting from it. That's why it was so easy for Riot to remove: Few champions cared, and those that did were easily drowned out.

What youve suggested is a damage bloat that is super strong on all levels.

No, by making sure that it is ENTIRELY based on the damage you do, and that damage being ENTIRELY after 3 abilities used, and even THAT being ENTIRELY after MR/Armour, it's damage will actually be pretty limited but still scale even on those that do make good use of it.

Its a slow.

Yes, it has utility. Riot wants this... Their main complaint about DFT was that fact it was pure damage and gave no utility...

Its a huge amount of delayed damage.

Again, it's not huge, and the fact it is delayed means it has counterplay.

It benefits battle mages and assassins massively.

No, specifically NOT them. They do huge burst in 3 abilities and then have fuck all for a few seconds. This required 3 abilties to even proc, and then only lasts for 5 seconds. In addition it cannot be procced by AA's so they can't even get away with using AA's like Zed, talon etc would

Its cooldown lets it always be up for a trade...

It's designed to give delayed trading power... I know it's not the front-loaded instakill that is so popular right now, but that doesn't mean its not viable. Also it has a higher CD early then any other damage orientated keystone...

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fm1p0sOT,comment-id=0000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-10T10:25:22.086+0000)

Actually it was very niche, with only a few benefiting from it. That's why it was so easy for Riot to remove: Few champions cared, and those that did were easily drowned out.

No... it... Wasnt. Anyone who did damage with abilities could utilize it effectively. It became a crutch on certain champions and was removed because it was "just damage" with no cool gimmick like three hits.

No, by making sure that it is ENTIRELY based on the damage you do, and that damage being ENTIRELY after 3 abilities used, and even THAT being ENTIRELY after MR/Armour, it's damage will actually be pretty limited but still scale even on those that do make good use of it.

So youre focusing on everything after three abilities as a gate? That... hurts your intended user base extremely so and makes this rune very, very, very clearly intended for spammy battle mages like ryze and cass.

Yes, it has utility. Riot wants this... Their main complaint about DFT was that fact it was pure damage and gave no utility...

No, their main complaint about DFT was that it added damage with no gimmick.

Again, it's not huge, and the fact it is delayed means it has counterplay.

Just because its delayed doesnt mean that its got counterplay. Case and point: Tristanas E.

No, specifically NOT them. They do huge burst in 3 abilities and then have fuck all for a few seconds. This required 3 abilties to even proc, and then only lasts for 5 seconds. In addition it cannot be procced by AA's so they can't even get away with using AA's like Zed, talon etc would

40% CDR is pretty easy to get if you itemize for it, and most casters get two rotations in 5 seconds... Hell, you could do skill things by staggering your procs specifically to wait out cooldowns. Your suggestion is just "MAOR DAMAGE" and everyone who can reliably proc it will take it, like they do electrocute. Hell i can easily imagine zed and talon taking it.
Further... After its procc'd ANY damage from ALL sources will add to it; You take two or three people who can proc it, bye bye tanks who just ate 3000 damage from a marksman and are now taking another 1000 or so from this.

It's designed to give delayed trading power... I know it's not the front-loaded instakill that is so popular right now, but that doesn't mean its not viable. Also it has a higher CD early then any other damage orientated rune...

Delayed trading? your suggestion is more akin to kill assurance.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

No... it... Wasnt. Anyone who did damage with abilities could utilize it effectively. It became a crutch on certain champions and was removed because it was "just damage" with no cool gimmick like three hits.

DFT was used by very few champions. Saying it COULD be utilized on a lot is like saying "well everyone has AA's so PTA can be utilized on anyone". Just because a champion is ABLE to use it doesn't mean it would be a good choice on them, and I don't see how this would change with my suggestion...

So youre focusing on everything after three abilities as a gate? That... hurts your intended user base extremely so and makes this rune very, very, very clearly intended for spammy battle mages like ryze and cass.

Not at all. Ryze and Cass rely heavily on phase rush for mobility so they can spam their abilities in an effective manner. Ryze might look at it as a late game option, but tbh it would cost him. Cass on the other hand might see more benefit then intended, but then she is really strong at the moment anyway so I imagine a slight nerf wouldnt be out of the question there if abuse did start to happen. Regarding the "intedend user base", this would be fantastic on them. Imagine morde hitting W, E, R. That alone would do plenty, even without proccing W or hitting nay Q's. Imagine Malzahar's ult combo with E W R... I mean this would be perfect for him. Consider Singed with flip, ground and poison... Consider brand with E Q W... I mean I could go on, but the point is the intended user group would benefit hugely from this. Some may even need minor nerfs...

No, their main complaint about DFT was that it added damage with no gimmick.

It was damage, no inteactivitiy, no utility. Those were the 3 reasons Riot has given.

Just because its delayed doesnt mean that its got counterplay. Case and point: Tristanas E.

Trist E DOES have counter play through heals, shields, zonyas, and lifesteal.

40% CDR is pretty easy to get if you itemize for it, and most casters get two rotations in 5 seconds... Hell, you could do skill things by staggering your procs specifically to wait out cooldowns.

Ah that late game argument. Well all I can say here is, the same thing applies to EVERY OTHER DAMAGE KEYSTONE IN THE GAME. You don't see people stopping half way through a teamfight before "my electrocute is on CD"

Your suggestion is just "MAOR DAMAGE" and everyone who can reliably proc it will take it, like they do electrocute. Hell i can easily imagine zed and talon taking it.

They'd get far less use out of it then electrocute, but sure, if they wanted to....

Further... After its procc'd ANY damage from ALL sources will add to it; You take two or three people who can proc it, bye bye tanks who just ate 3000 damage from a marksman and are now taking another 1000 or so from this.

No, it would be based on YOUR damage, not everyone's. I'll edit the OP to ensure this is understood...

Delayed trading? your suggestion is more akin to kill assurance.

No, it's akin to potential kill PRESSURE. Like electrocute but without it being front-loaded.

Beatrice falls1 votes

Wouldn't it be super OP coupled to things like item 3151 Brand passive on a tank ?

DW Diana1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beatrice falls,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fm1p0sOT,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-09T21:17:04.248+0000)

Wouldn't it be super OP coupled to things like item 3151 Brand passive on a tank ?

True, but then brands passive was buffed due to a lack of dft in the game. With the introduction of this I'd expect the passive to revert back

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