@Riot, can we talk candidly about jungle mages/tanks?

Just a quick question.

I know it's not all about fairness between all roles, sometimes it's about simplicity but I feel like, right now, a lot of mage junglers and tank junglers are struggling to find their footing. I wonder if there's not a way we could fix this without needing to tune every champion individually just by adding/tweaking a few items.

Mages: Runeglaive is comparatively really expensive right now compared to last season, and it gives even less AP. I understand that that's not an entirely bad thing because, last season, it was fairly over-tuned, so it could have stood with a bit of a scale-back, but I feel like there's an inherent problem with this: the item worked fairly well last season on MOST mage junglers_ because_it was overtuned. It has Sheen as the defining component, so a large determining factor of whether or not the item is good on you is how well you can use a sheen proc. If you can't use that well, the item being really cost effective was largely lost on you anyway, ESPECIALLY if you don't have a lot of mana problems (which is LESS of a problem now due to the existence of in general. Runeglaive seems fairly balanced now for the champions who can use it the best (Evelynn and Elise come to mind), but for junglers who really are not sheen-proc reliant, like the now struggling fiddlesticks, the item isn't even worth considering in 99% of situations... which is bad. You shouldn't be a champion tuned to belong in the jungle, and then have no jungle upgrade worth buying. You either spend a lot of gold on stats you don't particularly need, or you end up behind in levels and experience just because you don't have a solid item choice. I think that, with the state of the game as it is now, and it being preseason, it might be a good idea to bring back Magus/Spirit of the Spectral Wraith as an alternative option for mage junglers who don't want loads of mana and a sheen proc and would rather just get as much AP as possible from their jungle item. There are LOTS of components which could fit the bill for ingredients including , , , , or just a good, old-fashioned or to solidify the item as an alternative to the more spell-weavy option of Runeglaive. After all, AD champions get a choice between devourer and Warrior depending on what synergizes better with their particular kit. what's so wrong with giving mages the same consideration?

Tanks: I think a fundamental problem with tank itemization in the jungle is that you have two types of champions that want to build it: "true" tanks like , and and juggnernaut/dive-figher champions like , and . I think it's really hard to get an item that scales appropriately for the former without being useless on the latter, or that provides raw survivability for the former without being overbearing on the latter. Even that non-withstanding, I think, right now, PURE tanks that don't have pretty significant inherent sustain pay a pretty hefty price after the loss of Trailblazer. They lag further and further behind in clear-speed relative to their counterparts as the game goes on, and their sustain never really gets better, meaning that, often, fighter junglers are going to have MORE HP than tank junglers simply because they take less damage in the jungle to begin with. I'm not entirely sure how to fix this. I think one option is, again, to give two jungle options, and bring back the tenacity/CDR-granting Juggernaut/Spirit of the Ancient Golem for juggernaut/diver junglers and solidify Cinderhulk as an exclusively scaling-tank item. As a tradeoff for requiring more investment into tank items to get Cinderhulk moving, I think that if the passive scaled with Max HP on, at least, the Cinderhulk upgrade, that would go a long way to helping tanks stay at least a bit closer mid-late game.