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Can you please explain Random AP scaling?

Nagoh Shan··2 votes·1,572 views

My biggest issue with champion design is random AP scaling. If you got rid of that, I'd lose almost every complaint I have.

With that in mind, I'd like to ask, what is the reason for random AP scaling, and how is it determined? Why are there so many examples of Champions with obvious AD build paths, that have the odd man out ability that scales AP? It can't be because of the damage type as there are a multitude of examples of abilities that do Magic damage scaling AD, and Physical scaling AP.

One of the main arguments that's been presented is "Better than scaling off of nothing" and "Gives you some benefit if you get a Trinity or Baron buff". The only problem I have with that is: Is the scaling free? The most likely scenario is no. The ability loses something that it could have had (Lower cost/recharge or higher base damage for example) because power budget is spent on scaling that, honestly, isn't going to be used. Champs that have some balance issues and are slightly underpowered can get their AP scaling changed to something useful, which would allow for more viable action choices.

To use Fiora and Gnar for example. In my opinion both of their W's could be massively improved by changing their scaling from AP. They don't build AP viably, and not enough to justify balancing the ability around that. Additionally there are more options that provide interesting power synergy, and natural counterplay than just swapping to AD, as that would obviously cause some potential issues.

Movement speed.

Ripostes are about timing and speed; the faster you are the more effective they are. Fiora's W should really scale by her movement speed. 20% movement speed for scaling allows the power to grow as she itemizes (which it doesn't now) without forcing her to build ineffective hipster builds that neuter her other abilities. Additionally it would be countered naturally by slows, meaning it can be itemized against, or even picked against.

Hyper, I mean really this stuff writes itself. Why it didn't already scale with movement speed in the first place is mind-boggling. But, in order to keep it interesting, and allow it to fit with what mini-gnar needs (a harass punish) make it scale 1:1 with bonus movement speed (anything above 325). Again slows can keep things from getting out of hand, or not even allowing yourself to get stacks built up.

Stuff like this is really needed. The randomness of a lot of AP scaling just feels lazy, and it doesn't provide anything interesting to the design of a champion. Or the choices of a player when using a champion that has this issue. In many cases the champion feels needlessly held back by these types of decisions. It really needs to either be changed or there should be a really good reason for this particular design fundamental, especially with the massive changing of champions own design fundamentals via reworks.

8 Comments

Sunfield2 votes

9 out of 10 its because of Trinity, when Riot wants to give them a small power increase in a safe way

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

its either to increase trinity scaling or they give some champs the ap scalings for the parts of their kit that they dotn want to scale

The Mormonator1 votes

I didn't read your full complaint but I know that the random AP scaling is meant to be there for logic. AP scaling is given to champion abilities that seem to require some kind of magic. Champions that are relying on physical weapons instead of innate abilities are going to have ad scaling on such things. It really has little to do with champion design and a lot more to do with logic. I actually feel like scaling is done after a champion's kit has been created. There are some odd exceptions like Miss Fortune who was given an AP ratio on her Q for literally no reason. The patch notes simply stated she was getting an ap ratio and that was it. However, when most champions are released, their ratios and damage type will make sense according to what the ability is doing. Make sense?

Nagoh Shan1 votes

Problem with that is, there's far more example than MF of the "Magic means AP" idea being wrong.

IIRC:

Akali, Corki, Darius, Ezrael, Eve, Gragas, Jayce, Kat, Kayle, Kogmaw Lee Sin, Mordekeiser, Poppy, Shaco, Shyvanna, Twisted Fate, Warwick, and Yorick all have abilities that do magic damage, but can scale off AD.

Fiora and Pantheon, both use physical weapons (Rapier and Spear/shield respectively) yet they have each have AP only scaling ability(s).

It really, really feels like there's got to be a design directive leading this, but I can't find the pattern for the life of me.

The Mormonator1 votes

Well actually, a lot of the champions you just listed realistically make sense with the "magic means ap" I also mentioned a champions innate abilities making sense to scale with ap as well. I know that Mordekeiser is definitely using magic when he uses any of his abilities, Shaco is using magic to power his boxes and create his clone, lee sins' only ap scaling is his shield which makes sense because he is using magic to do so or an innate ability at the cost of energy, about 90% of the champions you listed have ap scaling on abilities that involve them doing something that they couldn't do with normal weapons or by themselves without the help of something else like magic. I'm using magic as a very general term here. Pantheon cannot man jump a large distance and crash down without the help of something other than his spear and shield. I could go on and on and explain how each of those champions deserves the ap scale.

Nagoh Shan1 votes

Must have explained wrong.

Each champ on that list can scale a magic ability off AD <- Emphasis on D which is what I was using to disprove the idea that magic = AP

Lee sin has his own random AP scaling (in his shield), but when referencing him in the list I was referring to his E, Tempest which deals magic damage, but scales 1x AD.

Mordekeiser uses magic, but his Mace of Spades can scale AD

Shaco is a bit hybrid, but His two shiv poison is a magic damage attack that scales of AD and that is what I was referring to.

Basically looking at that list, and seeing some of the stuff that scales of AD, it becomes difficult to come to some idea of why abilities like Riposte, Hyper, Aegis of Zeonia, Smoke screen, ect... can't. Yes, you can handwave a lot of things thematically, but this is a design based question, and in a competitive environment, design generally trumps theme. My curiosity is: what is that design fundamental? My hope is also that, unless the philosophy is incredibly sound, that it's thrown in a trash can further from their offices than the old lore was.

NeoKira1 votes

Random AP scaling can exist for a few reasons.

  1. Sometimes ap scaling on champions that tend to be AD, like Ezreal, can allow for a completely different way of playing them, like AP Ezreal. The same applies to shaco. Ik this may not have been what you meant so i'll move on to the other points.
  2. Some champions simply cannot have a kit in which all of their damaging abilities scale with AD. There are champions out there who would be quite overpowered if all of their abilities had AD scaling. Take, for example, Caitlyn trap or net. Both of these scale with ap, but don't provide a new playstyle, as quite frankly AP Caitlyn doesn't really work. However, if her net scaled with ap, think about how strong her combo would become? Her headshot, e,q combo would become far more powerful than it already is. Making an ability scale with AP on an AD champion is a method of giving a champion abilities that deal damage and provide utility, without having to worry about that damage becoming too strong.
  3. The third and final reason is for people like quinn or sivir. Both of them have ap scaling on their q's, but you can tell that it's not there to limit them like in my second example, because the same ability has AD scaling. Thus, we know that it's there for a different reason. And the reason is actually gold efficiency. Regardless of who is stronger with it, it's probably more gold efficient to buy trinity force as quinn than as vayne, because vayne has no ap scaling on her abiliites. That means that the 30 ap from Trinity force is just wasted gold on vayne. However, for quinn, it still benefits her q, meaning that it wasn't actually useless. So Ap scaling on abilities that already have AD scaling on champions that don't work as AP champions exist to add gold efficiency to items such as trinity force.
ValyrianBlade1 votes

I think it is, in fact, free scaling. riot is simply trying to encourage people to try out unconventional builds or roles on champions. In some cases they may never work, but in others you may find something that suddenly becomes meta. In cases where it seems obvious a different option would never work, it's likely to provide a really niche buff, for example if you buff shaco in any other way his early game is way too OP, but ap scaling that would only be activated by a Baron buff means it only is relevant late game.

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