I've heard why different players want him nerfed, but did we ever hear why Riot decided it had to happen?
I know they sort of touched on Kat's changes, but I don't know if they talked about Rammus Gnar or Sona at all. (Gnar's the only one I personally care about)
Really the changes confuse me, so I'd very much appreciate a Dev response.
RiotMeddler18 votesGnar - main focus of the changes is to reduce his lane bully potential a bit (we feel he's just too dominant in many match ups), while leaving his late game power intact.
Sona - looking to lower her sustain a bit overall, particularly in cases where a lot of damage has been traded on both sides and Sona/her allies recovery's a bit faster than we think's appropriate
Rammus - Reducing early ganking/dueling power a bit basically. This one especially we'll want to monitor closely, keep an eye on how Rammus does once the new jungle changes roll out.
Atro Spiker9 votesCan you explain why Sona needs nerfs in the first place? No one thinks she is strong. If she is somehow strong enough to need nerfs even though she still feels weak, doesn't that mean that the rework was a failure?
RiotMeddler12 votesOur feeling is that Sona's currently pretty under the radar power wise and is actually really strong at the moment. That's not indicative of the rework failing though. Reworks are done to fix fundamental problems with how a champion plays (e.g. lack of counterplay or insufficient distinguishing features from other champions of the the same role). Power by contrast's adjustable with simpler numbers changes, and isn't inherently linked with how healthy for the game a champion is (it's possible to have a really unhealthy champion that has well balanced numbers or a very healthy champion with unbalanced numbers).
Atro Spiker8 votesI thought the point of the rework was to shift her power to a more appreciable form so that you could better see the effect she has. If she still feels weak even when she is strong enough to need nerfs, then her power is still too invisible.
Pika3103 votesYes, the rework was meant to make Sona more visible. That encompassed the entirety of the visual effect changes, everything else was an afterthought. The kit changes and VU were just done as a pet project to screw with while they were at it and were both abruptly abandoned once those new flashing lights were complete. Which they did fail at, her power is still invisible, which doesn't matter because her actual numbers have been nerfed across the board anyways. The reason she feels weak is because she is weak, I never felt that way before the nerfs when I would consistently end games with 10-12 kills and 0-2 deaths. New Sona is lucky to end the game with any kills/assists and less than 6 deaths.
As for the new nerf, it's because the balance team hates Sona and are angry that people are still playing her. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone after they blatantly nerfed her full kit 20 weeks ago in the hopes she'd fade into obscurity.
FatedTitan1 votesOur feeling is that Sona's currently pretty under the radar power wise and is actually really strong at the moment. That's not indicative of the rework failing though. Reworks are done to fix fundamental problems with how a champion plays (e.g. lack of counterplay or insufficient distinguishing features from other champions of the the same role). Power by contrast's adjustable with simpler numbers changes, and isn't inherently linked with how healthy for the game a champion is (it's possible to have a really unhealthy champion that has well balanced numbers or a very healthy champion with unbalanced numbers).
Then please tell the ChampUp team to not touch Swain's kit. They can give him a VU all they want, but a kit update isn't needed. He fits a unique space, isn't toxic, etc. Frustrates me that IronStylus even mentioned the idea of giving Swain a Gameplay Update.
L7xLoTek4 votesI think it's more of a thematic fail: Cool tactican guy? Screw it, change into a giant crow!
As such, they might "Karma" him.
HowPlayGAEM2 votesShe's not under the radar, her pickrate skyrocketed from 4% to currently over 9% after you fixed her Q range, and her overall winrate went up 6%
And the rework IS a failure, I don't know why you keep spewing this nonsense that it's not. Sona's only playmaking ability is her ult; everything else about her kit is still nearly invisible power or straight up BS. She was incredibly useless in lane when her Q was nerfed to 550 range, now that its 850 it feels almost overbearing. If you nerf the range or damage, she'll go straight back to being worthless. There's no counterplay here; either Sona can poke safely and is a bitch to lane against, or she's within range and dies instantly.
A significant problem IMO is that Sona's power level is felt more by enemies than by Sona or her allies. That's stupid, and you should have worked harder on the gameplay update/rework to fix that.
Pika3105 votesIf you nerf the range or damage, she'll go straight back to being worthless.
The difference being, Q's bolt range is the same as before, but her damage has already been nerfed. It's now 40/80/120/160/200 when it used to be 50/100/150/200/250. On top of this, it granted herself bonus AP to do even more damage, so her bolts already do over 20% less than before. Despite this, nobody ever complained about Sona being the least bit stifling to play against, even after noting she had lower CD's, higher healing, lower mana costs, etc. Contrarily, regardless of having better numbers she was still just an off-pick.
Sona's power level is felt more by enemies
In actuality, Sona's power isn't felt playing as, with, or against her. Enemies complaining aren't really complaining about Sona, they're complaining about all enemies doing damage. These are the people that believe all matches should be 1-sided in their favor, they'd be as likely to complain about any opponent doing damage. Comparitively: Nami's 3 spells each do more damage than Sona's 1 spell; Morgana's Q and W both do more individually; Alistar; Annie; Blitz; Braum; Janna; Karma; Kayle; Leona; Lulu; Nunu; Soraka; Thresh; Zilean; and Zyra all have higher base damage on their spells. Hymn of Valor has the lowest base damage amongst the entire support class. It is Sona's one and only damage spell, yet is only tied by Leona's Q (E still does more) and Taric's TWO damage spells. Number's don't lie, Sona has the lowest damage output amongst the entire support class, even outclassed by every tank support.
Sailor Mint2 votesThe changes weren't implemented properly on the PBE. It currently heals for 35-50% less than expected. Would it be possible to take a look before changes get locked? I'd hate to play 2-3 with a bugged heal.
Emmy Cha0s3 votesHow about the fact that live Sona already heals for 22-63% less than pre-nerf.
It'd be great if they stopped turning a blind eye to the numbers they've been sitting on for 20 weeks.
Pika3105 votesReworks are done to fix fundamental problems
Except Sona had no problems, a rework was unnecessary. Riot only wanted flashier visuals and once those were complete, the balance and skins teams have both abandoned her. She was a niche pick that whilst being slightly less flexible than Nami, still could find a place in the meta and even got some playtime in LCS. Contrarily, after the nerfs not a single serious pro team was even willing to consider her at worlds due to the poor state Riot has forced her into where she's now just a 3rd-rate version of Nami in every regard.
(e.g. lack of counterplay or insufficient distinguishing features from other champions of the the same role)
Sona was super squishy and team-reliant, inherent counterplay. Adding more has crippled her. She was a songstress and only one of two stance champions, very distinguishing. She no longer plays songs and does not use the stance mechanic, you've homogenized her into another cookie-cutter mage. Even worse, she's a 3rd rate cookie-cutter Nami. With this one rework, you've essentially **given **her two of the fundamental problems you claim are reason for a rework in the first-place. Riot worked backwards on Sona instead of forwards.
That's not indicative of the rework failing though.
Her individual damage is lower, her team-donated damage is weaker at ranks 2+. Her sustain is unreasonably low and stiflingly expensive at ranks 1-2 during lane where it's most important and her damage mitigation at all times is poorer. Celerity has become a complete mess and to top everything off her abilities are now melee range and all of her CD's have been screwed up. Not to mention, Crescendo still isn't 100 mana at ranks 2-3. There wasn't a single improvement made to her kit in the entire rework, just blatant nerfs across the board. If this isn't evident of a failed rework, I don't know what is. Riot needs to sincerely consider hiring some mathematicians to their balance team, cause their work over the past half season has been shoddy at best. I'm referring to every blunder: the Cass and Soraka nerfs; the Lucian fiasco; Essence Reaver; the list goes on.
Power by contrast's adjustable with simpler numbers changes
You've had 20 weeks to make number changes, actions speak louder than words and the only action we've seen is inaction.
MAZZ1M03 votesCouldn't agree more.
Zeracanule1 votesMeddler-a day ago 11/18/14
(it's possible to have a really unhealthy champion that has well balanced numbers or a very healthy champion with unbalanced numbers).
Xelnath-5/8/13
The data indicates Xerath is actually balanced in terms of total impact on the game.
This is just my constant annoyance, but I'll never forget the fact that Xerath was considered balanced, not just in numbers apparently, but also total impact on the game. So... what was unhealthy about him that he deserved a rework? It's like.... everyone has been begging for something to be done about Urgot, or Sion, FOR YEARS NOW LITERALLY (Urgot got a MINOR update to his skills/mana/etc but he's still at lowest play+winrate, and Sion probably had a whole year+ of you guys working on him... <_<), and Xerath was just like the bloody test subject for you guys to test your new process of reworking of "Lets Talk About (Ruining) Blank Champion."
Anyone know of a game with a character similar to Xerath in terms of lock-down-->cast spells/etc-->un-root for chase because that playstyle and thinking in terms of always having the best position and knowing when to Locus was what kept me constantly playing League & Xerath. When you guys announced you were gonna rework him I basically binged myself into Plat 3 using almost purely Mejais Xerath over the course of a month that summer knowing that I'd never get to do that again most likely, and during his rework I tried out the different versions, really v.5&6 were the best ones as he still had a minor amount of % magic pen now innately on his QWE, though the mechanic of increased damage on a single target was a horrid idea (Though I'd actually have liked Riot to have tried putting v.1~4 when his ultimate was a mana draining Locus of power, or even a long cooldown obscene range/damage/whatever boost in, like... using the beta as a FULLY open beta where what you put on it might not go live (as has been noted recently) I'd have loved testing horribly broken v.1 Xerath instead of getting Morgageddon's feedback on the much earlier versions that got nowhere near live, let alone the PBE). So, I've enjoyed the time I've spent playing League, but overall... I kind of regret the amount of RP I've sunk into this game.
Sailor Mint1 votesI think you missed the point. Xerath was considered balanced because at a 1% pick rate, he had little to no impact on the overall health of the game.
There was a post that explicitly stated that Xerath was considered strong but unpopular and was not getting any changes for that reason. He would have gotten nerfed to the ground if he had hit fotm because they didn't want an assassin that could delete people from the fog of war.
tl;dr: Old Xerath was the Talon of mages.
Nagoh Shan1 votesI can't say I agree, and we'll see what happens, but thanks for explaining.
It's appreciated.
OneSlickPhony2 votesroll
HA, I get it
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
Narasimha1 votesThis is an easy one, its to better fit her theme. She's the Grand DUELIST, not the Grand 'Ult-into-a-teamfight-and-kill-everyone' person. She's meant to excel in 1v1s. Her ult change, other than the direct nerf aspect, keeps her 1v1 potential while making her less of a teamfight threat.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
Narasimha1 votesGood to massive untargetable AOE damage is good in ANY situation. Its literally a move without any counterplay. And yes, you can buy Thornmail and wreck her, but thats counter BUILDING, not counterplay in itself.
Jeddy0172 votesHa,roll out.
Mansana1 votesSpeaking of nerfs how far is Syndra under the teams radar? I main Syndra and am always under the impression that after 2 years people have come to finally understand her limits and powers efficiently. But then there is the other perspective that she's the result of others being nerfed. I'm sure you guys analyze a lot of data to figure out where to nerf a champion that is perceived "overpowered" via gameplay patterns. Are you guys waiting for preseason changes to take place to see how it all plays out so no unnecessary changes are made?
Also, is there a set power bar for mid lane like the claimed Renekton is too top lane; imo Orianna for example would probably be that bar but is there more to balancing than just making bars and adjusting champions?
Drunk Rummate1 votesRammus - Reducing early ganking/dueling power a bit basically. This one especially we'll want to monitor closely, keep an eye on how Rammus does once the new jungle changes roll out.
Haha. Roll out. 
Puns aside, how has rammus been doing in the pbe jungle? I've heard the early clear is really difficult for most champions, especially the new wraith camp. Will this be so limiting that champions like rammus completely lose jungle viability due to insufficient clear speeds?
Narasimha1 votesHe's safe, but super slow.
SpeedOfDarkness2 votesIn regards to Sona You're probably very busy, and you probably get like a million replies to your comments on a daily basis, but I think I have a cool idea and there's no way to get it out there without saying it, so here goes: I know that what I'm about to mention is basically a rework of her already reworked W, but I always thought it would have been really cool if Sona could only heal herself and her ally by landing Diminuendo. She's always been an aggressive poke support, and I thought that this idea was in line with that identity. I also considered how sitting back in lane and mindlessly spamming heal (a la pre-rework Soraka) to undo all the interaction from trades was pretty boring for me, and probably pretty lame for the enemy. This idea, if implemented, would probably cause the name of the power chord to be changed and its current effect of shredding damage to either be moved or removed. In my opinion, removal would be the better option since her shield still has the effect of mitigating damage. Or she could just have a loaded chord; no renaming necessary. If this isn't a good/feasible idea, I would be very grateful to know why.
Pika3103 votesSo let me get this right. You want to move her sub-par, 1000 range, 10 second heal onto a 550 range, AA reliant one that requires 3 charges for a minimum of a 12 second CD and almost thrice the mana cost. You want to remove her built-in exhaust, her last uniquely defining characteristic. Lastly, you want W to only do the paper-thin shield with a half-second lifespan and nothing more.
We don't need your Sona-hating, Fearless-worshiping around here. Your blatant nerf suggestion is so biased and anti-Sona, I put the odds at you being Fearless' smurf at a 70% chance.
SpeedOfDarkness1 votesSo, let me (attempt to)set this straight: As a Sona player, I would like it if her heal had better interactions. I personally like the idea of having to go to work for my heals as opposed to being a stay-at-home Sona. I understand that not everyone feels the same way as I do, but you can't have change without someone getting upset. Since this would indeed affect her viability, you can take that 12 second CD and make it lower, or reduce the mana cost, or -dare I say- increase her AA range to encourage aggressive play-making.
I would like it if her invisible damage shred was, well, more visible (see Arcade Sona). I merely mentioned its removal in the event that her Diminuendo became too overloaded.
As for her shield, again, there are many levers to pull here. You can buff the strength of the shield (maybe based on how close you are to your ally?), increase its duration, etc. You want to read another cool idea? It would be cool if shielded allies had increased healing effects while the shield was active.
Sona is my waifu.
Also, I think I'll go look up Fearless to figure out what the heck you're talking about.
Pika3101 votesHere, I'll save you some time:
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/player/NA/Fearless
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=46561127
Fearless was the unqualified employee allowed to have full reign of the biased Sona nerfs.
MAZZ1M01 votesSona is my waifu.
Also, I think I'll go look up Fearless to figure out what the heck you're talking about.
FalconPawwwwnch9 votesMaybe because he dominates every melee in the game in lane with no counterplay and then also becomes a better tank than them later?
Nagoh Shan2 votesConsidering, hell no, I don't think that's the reason.
Like I said, I'm wondering if Riot explained. I've read all the Gnar QQ so far. I'm wondering their reasons.
SionideCN7 votesConsidering, hell no, I don't think that's the reason.
Like I said, I'm wondering if Riot explained. I've read all the Gnar QQ so far. I'm wondering their reasons.
Because he's a ridiculous top laner with no counterplay against a gnar who is even semi lucid.
You can't play against a gnar who is even half competent with the champion, between the near 24/7 boomerang spam and the sheer offensive power of his mele form at early levels good luck getting ANY cs against someone who knows what they're doing. There is a reason he's pick ban in competitive play
Skias1 votesBasicslly this. Both of his forms are bad news for most champions to deal with, he has very very small windows of opportunity for counterplay which most likely kill the aggressor anyhow.
MotherChurch2 votesI think the Rammus nerf is a mistake. He already clears slowly, the new jungle is nerf enough.
a w1 votesWay too much zone control and he excels at fighting all in if he gets caught in lane because of his stupid op passive. With little to no items he still bullies in lane.
FatedTitan1 votesThat's Swain though. He's been around for years. No need to change his character now. That's Swain. If they want to make someone who's more of a tactician, then they can make a new champ. Don't destroy Swain.
RadiantWings1 votesIf you only think Sona's sustain is the problem, then why are you touching her late game damage? While her burst is kind of scary (if she gets ahead), few people really capitalize on her squishiness or early game mana problems. I find that far too many people back out of every trades just because Sona hits them with a Powerchord.
5512021 votes
Is so broken,
He counter any top laner, ANY!His Q (his poke) has no Cooldown and no mana cost (so forget about farming against ) So with his Q that slow + his E, he can easily chase and kill ANY1.
He DO NOT NEED AD ITEMS TO CARRY OR DO DMG! In most of the case they build as a HARD TO KILL tank, but they can still rape the top laner and carry their team late game, because passive give him AD, Armor, Mag Res, Attack Speed, Move Speed and A lot of HP!
He snowball every games! Even if all the others lanes are lost, he can carry his team, because he can stun the WHOLE ENEMY TEAM for 3 secs! (enough to make his team rape the enemies)
Riot should make his Q 15 secs cd at All LVL, so he can't spam it every sec! Its impossible to play against a Top lane! Reason why he is the most banned in ranked .
AsolDiana1 votesThey want him to have a 0% pick/ban rate, there's no other explanation.
SpeedOfDarkness1 votesHere, I'll save you some time:
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/player/NA/Fearless
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=46561127
Fearless was the unqualified employee allowed to have full reign of the biased Sona nerfs.
Thanks for the links. I've got quite a bit of food for thought now.
You know, there are things that I didn't like about the Fearless rework. For example, when I use my W, I understand that its effectiveness varies depending on the situation, but I'm confused as to its optimal usage. Whether it be team fights or in lane, is it better to mitigate the damage of a full health ally or heal it after it's dealt? If one is better than the other, does the other option count as superfluous design? It seems like the ideal use of the ability is to shield 4 full HP targets and heal+shield one injured target, but this scenario isn't in my control.
The new E is now supposed to serve as another method of engagement for ult follow-ups. I don't see how it's more effective than her pre-rework E + ult engage. Wouldn't a stronger, decaying MS buff accomplish this better? On another note, wouldn't this make it easier to tag allies with her "cuddle zone", especially when allies are moving away from you?
Speaking of "cuddle zones", correct me if I'm wrong but: Wouldn't the gameplay for them be deeper if the effectiveness of the buffs increased proportionately to how close you are to your ally and/or if the duration increased based on how long the ally was in the zone?
For example, if I'm trying to "cuddle" an Ezreal against a Draven, wouldn't this make Ezreal think about where to Arcane Shift? In this case, if Ezreal has to Shift to avoid a skillshot, it becomes most effective if he Shifts somewhere inside the zone, which means that he's relying on me to have good spacing so that both of us can simultaneously avoid the skillshot and retain maximum benefit of my ability. On Draven's side, wouldn't this create gameplay if he knew he could alter the effectiveness of my abilities by using Stand Aside to push Ezreal out of my zone and force him to either Shift back in to gain the benefit, or do not and lose out on the buff? In this case, you'd have to stick to your partner like glue while your abilities are up, the ADC would have to make good plays for you to follow, and the benefit of the duo being most effective when the two have good coordination.
But no. I give Ezreal a variety of buffs and he can Shift away with them all willy-nilly. Draven can push Ezreal away but he can just walk back in to a zone for a buff that's equally as effective(the only exception being the heal). ZZZZ
I'll give this some more thought though.
Sailor Mint1 votesInstead of downvoting actual constructive posts, you might want to fix your issues.
You can witch hunt and cry all you want, it's an exercise in futility. No reworks have ever been reverted and Sona is one of the more successful one so far. You can either adapt, move on to something else or get left behind.
You should found r/oldsonacirclejerk so you and the very vocal minority that were left behind can share stories about "how much more better" old Sona was and how much you hate Fearless for ruining your waifu.
Oh, and assuming you are healing an injured target (75% health), it's a 45.31%/28.41%/18.75%/12.50%/8.13% HPS decrease between Live and pre-rework Sona
Pika3102 votesNo reworks have ever been reverted
The Lee Sin rework was reverted. It never made it to live, but neither should've Cass, Soraka, Sona, Lucian, Nidalee, etc. Either for being blatant nerfs or OP buffs.
Continue your blatant selective disinformation, it just discredits you further.
Sailor Mint1 votesUnlike say, the Renekton rebalance, I don't think the Lee Sin "rework" even made it to the PBE. It's just one of the more public internal test. For every change that makes it to live, there's hundreds of iterations that don't make it past the concept phase and internal testing.
If you only care about your own personal enjoyment and don't care about the global health of the game or are afraid of change, League of Legends is probably not the game for you. You're not arguing about Sona, you're arguing against the vision Riot has of the game. You can either accept that changes you won't necessarily agree with will happen or take a break and move on to something else.
I don't miss losing 80% of my life to one spear and I'm glad Season 2 Soraka/Graves lanes (or sustain supports crowding out everything else) are a thing of the past.
