mages have too few choices for reaching cooldown cap

Sagiterios·Nov 17, 2015·257 votes·8,793 views

My favorite thing to play in this game is traditional mages, with high damage and control but lackluster mobility. Cooldown reduction allowed more regular access to their strengths, which made them a lot more fun to play, and sense the preseason started, it just isn't as available.

Before the preseason, buying a mana item and would hit the cooldown cap. With the nerf to lucidity boots, and the cooldown masteries being placed too high in the middle tree to get if you specialize in the damage tree, you need to get additional items to achieve the cooldown cap.

there are currently 6 cooldown items which are really designed for ap champions; , out of these, and are autoattack based, and many champs just dont have good synergy with them is useful for its sheer utility, but in general isnt a very powerful item for a full mage

this leaves

morello and athenes occupy the same basic purpose in most cases: getting your mana to sustainable levels. Usually you would want to choose one or the other, as buying both will just overkill your mana regen and make you spend money on a stat you dont need more of.

Essentially, if you want max cooldown, you are forced into getting or + + . and unless your champ has the synergy with nashors or lich bane, or just go for tank items, its basically your only choice. This just feels bad, and has severely encroached on my enjoyment of my favorite position. I am fine with making the cap harder to achieve, as that is a reasonable power gauge considering the strengths of the class. But we really need some options for how we get there, either through additional items or masteries

188 Comments

NostolgicSkiesNov 17, 201553 votes

then take into consideration item 3508 and u find ap mages have to sacrifice dmg to attain max cdr while adc's give up nothing. its so sad =(

NilokNov 17, 20154 votes

The fact your are suggesting an ADC item for AP mages is a very bad sign.

Either AP mages don't have enough choices, or the ADC item is too good.

AnidanNov 17, 201527 votes

No, he was saying that for an ADC to reach CDR cap, they sacrifice nothing, while a mage may have to give up damage or use an item that has poor synergy with their kit if they want to attain to attain that same goal of max CDR.

CatSithNov 17, 20154 votes

You can't compare the benefits of mages with cdr and adcs with cdr. Mages gain more out of it.

maikokkNov 17, 201520 votes

unless you are Ezreal MissFortune Lucian Tristana or AD TwistedFate

all of whom gain as much as mages for CDR. not that all of them prioritized it... but when you dont have to pay gold... or even sacrifice an item slot... or even stats~~~~~ there is no reason to not have that extra power.

CherysseNov 17, 201529 votes

Basically thats the idea of the season, lets make mages even harder to play. Leage of ADC is coming.

RyzeReworkNov 17, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Basically thats the idea of the season, lets make mages even harder to play. Leage of ADC is coming.

Considering how every ap item is viable compared to how there was only viable build for adc's. And mages are still strong unless you have actually tried mages yet then you have no idea

Cosmic WarperNov 17, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Godlike Jungle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FIYBYk87,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-11-17T10:00:51.421+0000)

Considering how every ap item is viable compared to how there was only viable build for adc's. And mages are still strong unless you have actually tried mages yet then you have no idea

The only strong mages this patch are the DoT or high base damage mages. High scaling mages got completely fucked by the DCAP and Luden's price increases and the shoehorning of build paths just to get 40% cdr. I play mages almost exclusively and the only strong ones right now are Brand, Vel, Anivia, Malz, and maybe Lux. Everyone else got indirect nerfs through the gold changes and the MR increase on tank items.

Kitten of EvilNov 17, 20152 votes

Veigar still seems fine, but that's because he gets free AP from farming. The others, I agree. It's really hard to play as a mage right now, not least because Yasuo is in every. single. game.

FistOfSharkieshaNov 17, 201517 votes

I just made a thread about item 3003 users being completely fucked out of CDR. They don't want or need mana regen but they stack a latent power item for 20 minutes only to have a bit more AP and no CDR. We need way more AP cdr items.

ArdondNov 17, 201513 votes

the thing is a lot of the item 3003 users don't need the cdr as they already have low cooldown spells that would make cooldown redux kind of useless, or they have to get one of the mana regen items in addition anyway.

BattalionNov 17, 20151 votes

I play that on Azir mostly, or used to before games closed out an extra 8 minutes sooner. I don't think you'd be able to get to item 3040 with a champion that was in need of 40% (45%) CDR in the first place.

item 3027 + item 3040 + Azir = Tanky Bursting Mage that never runs out of mana (Sounds OP? It is ;D)

P4ppinoNov 17, 201510 votes

{quoted}

I play that on Azir mostly, or used to before games closed out an extra 8 minutes sooner. I don't think you'd be able to get to with a champion that was in need of 40% (45%) CDR in the first place.

+ + = Tanky Bursting Mage that never runs out of mana (Sounds OP? It is ;D)

Pls don't build this to azir, it hurts my eyes xd

Auz the RipperNov 17, 20157 votes

To be fair at least, item 3003 item 3027 item 3089 gives the highest amount of AP of any three item combo when fully stacked

BattalionNov 17, 20152 votes

Let me explain for you:

Solo Q is not a friendly place for hard core mechanics involving teamwork and communication, it just isn't.

So a highly immobile , squishy target such as Azir gets bursted down pretty easily. Azir is all about teamwork and positioning.

"So why don't you just poke from a distance?"

Early laning phase with poking is highly mana dependant, building into a mana item such as item 3010 helps keep you from getting deleted, helps sustain in lane with mana and health regen on the level. There is nothing you can do to make Azir do damage early game, unless you're running straight AP runes. He'll always get outshined by a caster or an assassin by level 3.

Building a item 3027 is a cost efficient way to get Azir a scaling item that improves health, mana, and ability power.

A item 3157 In most cases is a very good idea, the Armor and the AP is really good but what about that active? Being protected for that amount of time means that your Team's damage output is drastically decreased. A fully stacked item 3040 keeps you protected whenever you're using the huge pools of mana from the previously stacked item 3027 , without reducing damage output. Generally if I'm against a lot of assassins i'll build All three items mentioned.

AP damage is not decreased, surviability is increased. Since Azir is not a burst style champion the longer he stays alive the better, all of these help contribute to that.

This build is only viable when you can stall the game out to about 30-35 minutes. That is easier said than done since patch 5.22. Since then I hardly go for a item 3040 anymore.

The amount of late game synergy that item 3040 and item 3027 have is undeniable, however that doesn't mean it's viable in the current state of the game. I can usually get about 400 AP without item 3089 which means I have more room for mobility, health, or even magic pen in the way of item 3135 .

FistOfSharkieshaNov 17, 20154 votes

But several of them do need the CDR. Veigar LOVES this item with his farming nature and passive, but the CDR from Athene's or Morello is far better and has a higher winrate. Orianna Karma Annie Zyra Zilean Ziggs can also easily stack tear but there's just no reason for them to forgo the CDR.

My point is, the tear is meant to be latent power. You basically lose 720 gold in tempo to have a stronger lategame, and it's so commonly paired with RoA that your early game is just absolute trash. It could have been a good option to trade early game for lategame for the mages I listed but it isn't because CDR is tacked onto useless mana regen items. Also even if a mage's primary spell or spells have a low or no cooldown, CDR still benefits several skills. Karthus's ult is gamechanging. Having it or not having it can easily determine the game. Swain has only one toggle ability and it's on an 8 second cooldown. He greatly benefits from CDR no matter what others would have you believe.

At the very least we need 1 more top tier AP item with 10% CDR since the removal of DFG.

peachplumpearNov 17, 20154 votes

I'd like a mask item that builds out of item 3136 item 3108 . Could give like 60 AP, 250 HP, 15 Magic Penetration (Unique from Liandry's), and 10% CDR and cost 2900 gold? (Combine cost of 500g and gives +10 AP and +50 HP over its components so it's basically just for slot efficiency).

flibitydooNov 17, 20157 votes

Swain Karthus Anivia Singed build item 3003 and they don't care about cdr. They've never had to (or cared to) complain about cdr because their primary damage output isn't tied to cd based abilities. They build to fuel their toggled, mana-drain over time abilities. As cool as it was playing Anivia and nuking someone with the 1.0 ap ratio targeted E on a 5 second base CD, much of her success comes from using her toggled-rumble-ult-blizzard-circle by pressing r and pinning them with stuns/the wall and watching the whole enemy team squirm and die. Likewise with the other mages, CDR isn't a big rush on Karthus (or Swain, or Singed), usually the strat is to stack ap/mana to inflict maximum damage whilst standing in the enemy team.

and as for Cassiopeia who does not have toggles , she just get's friggin 25% cdr from her snake stacks passive which solves her issues with cdr. And her E mechanic (her main damage output) isn't tied to CDR either, the ability sets a flat CDR of .5 seconds. And Ryze builds it mainly for the damage scaling, but he also get's a free 30% cdr from his ult passive. (and his abiltiy CDs scale according to his passive, which ensures that regardless of CDR he will always have the same spell rotations).

ahferroin7Nov 17, 20153 votes

Actually, 40% CDR is significant on Karrthus, depending on how you play him (CDR means you're more likely to have your wall or ult up when you need it. Add to that that max CDR can make his Q faster than many non ADC's auto attacks...

aítchNov 17, 20152 votes

Annie item 3027 item 3040 item 3158
Fight me

FistOfSharkieshaNov 17, 20154 votes

Annie is one of the best beneficiaries of CDR in the game. 2 second Qs 4 second Ws, permashield, permatibbers (45 second tibbers duration 45 second cooldown at max CDR). There is a point where CDR is better than AP on nearly every mage except Ryze and Cass who get theirs for free.

EfficientDynamoNov 17, 201515 votes

Agreed. Twin shadows, while rarely utilized, at least gave you an option if you wanted CDR, AP, and utility. I would argue there is room for at least two more items with CDR; maybe as a boot enchantment?

DeliothNov 17, 20156 votes

Boot enchantments are reserved solely for mobility purposes.

JonxxNov 17, 20151 votes

Who cares.

DeliothNov 17, 20159 votes

The idea is that boot enchantments are combat-neutral; you can pick the one that's better for your personal play rather than getting the one with damage or damage assistance. It would be like making a trinket that gives AD- they're reserved for vision.

S H A Y C 0Nov 17, 20152 votes

Yeah its like boots that give you attack speed or some sort of defensive buff. Boots are for the sole purpose of movement...these noobs and their noob ideas.[slayer-jinx-unamused]

SociopathFriendNov 17, 20155 votes

He specified enchantments both times; all of the boots enhancements have little to nothing to do with actual combat. item 1301 Flat movement speed item 1302 Gives allies movement speed item 1303 Lowers spell CD item 1305 The closest to "combat boots"- gives movement speed for fighting item 1304 Heal up and run out faster in base

S H A Y C 0Nov 17, 20151 votes

Yeah...that is the current set, but he was suggesting a NEW ENCHANTMENT to resolve an apparent LACK OF CDR. ffs man, learn to read, and you dont have to be an a$$ ALL the time

DeliothNov 17, 20155 votes

Yeah, an enchantment.

Those are explicitly not for combat stats, only movement.

S H A Y C 0Nov 17, 20153 votes

and that has to remain the same for what reason? find the right side of your brain and use it.

DeliothNov 17, 20154 votes

Because it's good to have something that is completely independent of damage, and purely player choice. You're considering taking something that is actually a player's independent choice- not a damage optimization, pure player preference- and forcing a damage optimization onto it, thus removing a player's choice by either letting them take their preferred enchantment and having handicapped damage/cooldowns or forcing the CDR enchantment and not getting their preferred enchant.

GhastlyGhoulManNov 17, 20159 votes

This. Options for cdr are SO limited. I have definitely found it frustrating when playing mages.

DrCyanideNov 17, 201510 votes

Options are limited, and our cap was raised to 45% with masteries. Are full CDR runes the only answer?

7ha7guy777Nov 17, 20153 votes

I actually tried out 25% scaling cdr from 2 quints and 9 glyphs but i can't tell if the mr and ap loss is worth the extra cdr. I don't know if i want to try it in pvp because that ap and mr can make or break laning phase and the cdr doesn't really become relevant until level 10.

RedagaNov 17, 20154 votes

yeah, especially when mage bread and butter are their spells, AD champs at least their AD escalates with their items and get Attack Speed and such, if a mage pulls out a combo and dont kills the enemy, they are as good a a sitting duck, and mages are not well know for being ultra mobile ( Xerath

AuryielNov 17, 20158 votes

Also, buying Lucidity Boots in itself is a huge sacrifice in damage considering you pick that instead of 15 flat mpen

ahferroin7Nov 17, 20153 votes

That's pretty dependent on play-style and a lot of other factors. If you actually run the numbers, some Mages can do more damage with the bonus CDR than with the mpen. This of course only holds if your opponents aren't stacking MR, but that's pretty unusual to see in low ELO.

SpoofghoulNov 17, 20155 votes

Well in this ad meta maybe item 3110 wouldn't be so bad on mages.

Probably not optimal for pure burst but for more dps oriented mages like or Azir or Anivia This could very well work.

More tanky more mana and more cdr. We wont be having any real tanks in the frotnline this preseason so might aswell take item 3110 and kill two birds with one stone

Hyrum GraffNov 17, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Well in this ad meta maybe wouldn't be so bad on mages.

Probably not optimal for pure burst but for more dps oriented mages like or or This could very well work.

More tanky more mana and more cdr. We wont be having any real tanks in the frotnline this preseason so might aswell take and kill two birds with one stone

The amount of attack speed slow that Anivia item 3143 item 3110 has is utterly hilarious.

SpoofghoulNov 17, 20152 votes

Anivia item 3110 item 3143 item 1414 summoner 3 new meta ?

ahferroin7Nov 17, 20152 votes

Lol, reminds me of an ARAM game I had the other day, I was building full tank on Maokai and was able to 1v1 the enemy Jinx throughout most of the game...

L8tNov 17, 20154 votes

How to fix this? Run cdr per level runes problem solved

Hyrum GraffNov 17, 20156 votes

{quoted}

How to fix this? Run cdr per level runes problem solved

Except 15% cdr at 18 doesn't get me to 40% cdr with one of athene's or morello's. This is my least favorite thing about the preseason changes.

A LiberalNov 17, 20152 votes

Except runes shouldn't be mandatory in any case. There should always be in game options to achieve all ends.

Hyrum GraffNov 17, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Except runes shouldn't be mandatory in any case. There should always be in game options to achieve all ends.

Before, if you wanted to get 40% cdr, and you took 5% from runes like everyone did, your only options were to waste cdr, get ionian, or use runes. Now, IF there were more in-game AP cdr items, there would actually be more ways to get 40% cdr without waste.

>Edit: >Obviously not everyone wants 40% cdr. They'd prefer more AP, so the loss of 5% cdr isn't a >a big deal. That's your options right there, same as last season. The point is there's fewer >options for people who *do* want to get 40% cdr.

Right now the only 40% cdr option for no-aa mages without runes is double morello (or morello + athene, but that seems silly). However, with a couple more 10% items there would be awesome variety.

ZioviNov 17, 20154 votes

I think that it may be fine to introduce a new item with high AP (100, i guess) and 10% CDR

CJ NishinoyaNov 17, 20151 votes

CDR Glyphs and Quints are very cost effective also "mages" start in a solo lane meaning you don't have to run so many combat early stats unlike adc's/sup's who always live in threat of a good hook/grab/stun in the land of opportunities called bot lane. ("but adc's got ER op blah blah") Discussion over.

RisenDarkKnightNov 17, 20158 votes

If you take both cdr glyphs AND cdr quints you lose out in a ton of early game power, which is a problem since games are shorter this patch. If you run just cdr glyphs you have to build lucidity boots to reach the cap, which means you will be 23.4 magic pen (15 from sorc shoes, 8.4 from masteries at lvl 18) less than other mages.

Even if you are going for 40% not 45% cdr, that means you don't have any cdr from masteries unlike last season so you are forced to make the same choice: invest in cdr glyphs and quints gimping your early game, or buy lucidity boots instead of sorc shoes gimping your mid game.

DIRUNov 17, 20151 votes

you don't get the concept of 'trade-off' do you?

RisenDarkKnightNov 17, 20154 votes

And ADCs dont' have to make that trade-off despite being the attack speed-based class that doesn't depend on cooldowns. Most mages don't do any damage while their spells are on cooldown and therefore they need CDR. It's strange that CDR, traditionally the stat of Mages, Supports, and Tanks is now most common on ADCs (Essence Reaver into Cloak of Agility = 30% CDR more than many mages will get all game). Supports and tanks can still reach 40% (Frozen heart still gives 20% and most support items gives 10%) but Mages have to sacrifice a ton of magic pen to do it while adcs don't sacrfice anything for it right now.