Rengar is getting reworked, you know. So stop complaining about him.

FrickendaChicken·Dec 30, 2015·2 votes·854 views

A long time ago, Rengar was released. He was horrible. Did nothing Then he was buffed, and was too strong. Then he was nerfed SLIGHTLY on 2 abilities-too weak, possibly worse than his release. Then triple Q'ing was a thing that he did. They removed that. Didn't do enough damage now. Buffed him. Said his kit was impossibly to balance-saying they will rework him.

No point in complaining when the complaints are pointless. That's like saying "I don't have enough money to buy a PS4! I need 20 more bucks!" and your paycheck is tomorrow. THERE'S NO POINT. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

22 Comments

YuGiHoDec 30, 20154 votes

Rengar is not getting reworked any time soon like warwick so for now just nerf him till hes not the #1 pick

FrickendaChickenDec 30, 20151 votes

I made a post about this somewhere-but you can't just nerf an assassin. You can't just buff an assassin. The reason I listed so many changes to him was because he went through too many ups and downs. If I nerf Rengar's base stats by 8 on his damage. He loses SO much more than that 8 damage. He loses the ability to assassinate a target. He loses his early game strength. He loses his clear-which is already pretty bad. Without these things, Rengar becomes easily the worst champion. This works for ANY assassin. They are too reliant on kills, meaning that Riot actually intentionally puts these champs at a disadvantage. They need the kills, to get their items, to get their damage, to get their kills. They are just super efficient at cycling their kills. If I nerf Rengar's health/heal on his W. He becomes unreliable because now he can't just 1v1 someone who is about as fed as him MEANING that he can't do his job/is worthless/not worth making.

I understand it's hard to deal with, but we'll have to tough it out.

Cenobite AzazielDec 30, 20153 votes

OH there are REWORKING HIM? WOW. I guess that will be fast and quick! Poppy Sion Yorick Warwick Taric .

I'll be back in 3 years. Riot doesn't have the guts to smite rengars whole kit and create a new one. They killed olaf, eve, twisted cassio, gragas, but rengar, lee and riven are a nono.

FrickendaChickenDec 30, 20151 votes

Olaf, is fine, they just hurt is early game. TF? What? he is incredibly strong. Cassiopeia was given an identity, and is just unpopular. Gragas is insanely strong, but again, just unpopular. I played Eve, and they don't want her being super strong because of how snowball she is. Lee is possibly the hardest champion in the game, next to Azir. Look at his winrate for how much practice the player has, THEN the winrate. It shows that those who pick him up-play him for 50 games- and won't even hold a single speck to the lee that has spent 100 games. 200 games. Lee is super easy to just ward and play around, he works on a player's ignorance and his strong early game. Once we hit team fighting stage, all he can do is assassinate the adc. If YOU stop him. He is worthless. Riven is one of the easiest champions to stop from snowballing. She doesn't do much until she gets her first two kills. As long as you play safe and try to win trades, she can't snowball. And-IN FACT- she is incredibly easy to snowball against. Getting the first two kills means that she is WAY behind you (because she HAS to build damage, and can't build tank). And I just went over Rengar.

Cenobite AzazielJan 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Olaf, is fine, they just hurt is early game. TF? What? he is incredibly strong. Cassiopeia was given an identity, and is just unpopular. Gragas is insanely strong, but again, just unpopular. I played Eve, and they don't want her being super strong because of how snowball she is. Lee is possibly the hardest champion in the game, next to Azir. Look at his winrate for how much practice the player has, THEN the winrate. It shows that those who pick him up-play him for 50 games- and won't even hold a single speck to the lee that has spent 100 games. 200 games. Lee is super easy to just ward and play around, he works on a player's ignorance and his strong early game. Once we hit team fighting stage, all he can do is assassinate the adc. If YOU stop him. He is worthless. Riven is one of the easiest champions to stop from snowballing. She doesn't do much until she gets her first two kills. As long as you play safe and try to win trades, she can't snowball. And-IN FACT- she is incredibly easy to snowball against. Getting the first two kills means that she is WAY behind you (because she HAS to build damage, and can't build tank). And I just went over Rengar.

Olaf - for about 3 months (or more) he was a complete mess. Evelynn - got eved in the rework, got shafted again and again during jungle changes , has little to no late game. Cassiopeia - Her identity is spam E? didn't fix the problem with scripters that was the major reason for a cassio rework. Gragas - Current winrate - 45%. Yes, he is THAT bad now. (Used to be a good laner, turned into a decent top laner, got pushed into the jungle and now can't go anywhere). LeeSin : Riot said that lee was fine. Then they dumbed down his passive for silver players that can't kite and added more damage in his ult. So you can disperse the whole team and probably kill the ADC/APC if he is kind of low. you say: all he can do is assassinate the adc. Yes. A jungle tank/dueslit/assassin that has the luxury to go for sight stone because he has insane base and scaling damage can kill your ADC while CC part of your front line. There is little to no excuse for lee sin to exist in a state of no weakness and being able to fill any comp. Too much utility, too much damage. Lee has the damage of an assassin, has the mobility of one, is pretty hard to catch and still has tons of CC (slow and knock up). It is an abomination.

FrickendaChickenJan 1, 20161 votes

Lee weakness- Reliant on hitting his Q, reliant on comboing is abilities quickly and efficiently, if a single part of his combo is messed with, then his damage is SEVERELY wounded. Let's say you're facing a Vayne, if you Q to her, and she pins you to a wall, only to have the rest of the team do the same, because you are so far away from your team now beause you've dived the back line, and they can't do anything for you.

The thing about winrates (your example with Gragas), if you take a winrate face value and judge a champion on that alone, you don't understand how to read a winrate. Read it by Wins by Games Played and Win Percentage Based on How Long the Games go. This tells you how difficult the champion is to pickup, and how their power spikes in the game.

If you take Lee Sin's Wins by Games Played, he CANNOT just be picked up and run with, such as with Volibear. You can't just pick him up and expect to understand and master his mechanics in any fashionably quick way. And, his Wins On How long games go decreases depending how long the game goes.

This tells you, Lee Sin is a very difficult champion and increases in difficulty to succeed in on how long the games he participates in go.

How does Olaf being in a mess for 3 months effect how he is now? It just means they had difficulties getting him in the right spot. Balancing isn't something that is done overnight, it takes a very long time. (Looking at you, Azir)

Eve has SUCH a horribly toxic kit that she has to be given a major weakness. And that weakness is her late game. This let's her still have an influence on the early game by abusing the resources available in her kit. So she snowballs the rest of her team early game, then provides some large aoe damage and the ability to provide a constant dps pressure onto a certain enemy in teamfights.

To Cassiopeia's identity? Yes and No. She does rely on her E, but she relies on accurately and actively micro managing her poisons and cooldowns on the target she is A) able to reach, and B) wants to kill. Her identity is that she relies on being able to combo all of her abilities together, and micromanaging her damage to be a high dps/control/zoning mage-with small elements of kiting. Remember, Cassiopeia's E increases all damage dealt by her poisons, which amplifies he ability to keep her dps up, able to control to the positioning of her enemies with her ult and poison positions, zone with her highly powerful ult, and rewards a good Cassiopeia's ability to micromanage by giving her more damage overall with EVERY ability but her ult per base spell cast on the same enemy.

FrickendaChickenJan 1, 20161 votes

And Yes, Riot said Lee Sin was fine, and he is, and then gave him some love by letting him follow more of Riot's code, Easy to Learn, Hard to Master. And if you pay attention to the all of the major changes on MOST champions, they fall under this category. They gave him SOMETHING to do if he fell behind and had to build tank, and let him farm easier in the jungle, allowing the best players the ability to keep his health up early and gives more power to some of his ganks. And let's the new players ease into the idea of "He has to combo all of his abilities together to get a maximum amount of damage out of his kit." if you don't get the max amount of damage quickly, he does nothing, which is why is Winrate Per Games Played is so High for extremely serious Lee Sin Players, but it is low for the people who pick him up.

Cenobite AzazielJan 3, 20161 votes

It is really funny that you talk about azir balancing. Riot : Lee is good on LCS but too much mechanical for normal players! Dumb it down so you don't need to hit two autos for the energy, add more damage to his ult to punish the tank for being tanky because the noob will always kick the tank away insted of going for an insec!" Few seconds later: " Wow azir is good on LCS but players can't learn him well. Nerf him to sh***. "

It is funny that you say "Oh lee sin NEEDS a late game. He is the god of early with monstrous ganks and insane diving skills (still riot nerfs alistar jungle to hell, because of the dives) but if he falls off bulding tank.

"They gave him SOMETHING to do if he fell behind and had to build tank "

Oh golly gee, an brutal killing dueling machine that needs a late game if he doesn't succeed. Last time I checked Shaco , Khazix , don't have late game free damage. Lee already has a 8% missing health. You know has has a similar skills and pays up for that? Elise. 220+ 8% missing health. She doesn't have an ultimate.

Lee keeps his ultimate and his passive makes every skill lee cast is a 40% aspd buff. So if you read his Q, add up a "he gains 40% for the next 6 seconds". He shouldn't have an ultimate.

Lee CAN be picked up and run with. You still have the insane ganks, the only thing that you will feel is the "ohhh he falls off" because you don't know how to insec. You still get insane mobility, insane damage and a ton of CC. With a 34% pick rate that contributes to his low win rate.

Lee has a similar toxic play pattern similar to eve. He can invade and I guess no one can out duel him (except for XinZhao ). He is more slipery than eve (hey, base move speed 350 for the most mobile champion in the game?) and guess what, he has a late game. Lee has at least some CC for the late game. Pure tank eve adds up nothing to the combat and ap eve is squishier than anything.

Cassio was a dot mage. Now she is uses a rambo's M-60. Hit poison and smash e. The new mastery from ferocity made Brand (another dot mage) broken. Cassio goes for thunder lord because of the trades. What was the ultimate dot mage doesn't work with a dot mastery. Her passive is a bandage. Removes early game power (so it makes easier to balance her) to add up for the late game, so she can still be relevant after the lane phase.

Le blanc is another hard to master champion, still, her silence removed because the "no counter play"rule of design. If you play as a imobile champion vs lee sin you are dead very time post lvl 6. You can dodge his Q, if he hit a minion or another champion you are going to be insec'd if you don't burn your flash. Hell , if he is far away from you, he still can ward hop, slow you down and WALK around you ( one fo the biggest base move speed in the game) and kick you away.

You can say some other champions hold that toxic pattern, such as annie, but with no mobility and short range she has her destructive power gated behind flash. Imagine now if she could ward hop like lee sin (instead of that useless "shield").

Lee breaks another league of legends rule. "No hero should be a generalist." Lucian got shafted last season because of that. Corki got nerfed after lucian was nerfed because of that. If you can fit all comps with no disadvantage at all, you steal away champions roles that are molded for especific comps and dumbs down the game.

Lee can fit in dive comps, engage, disengage and even poke. Good luck poking with warwick...

Gragas is in a horrible state. His win rate floats between 42% and 45% in 50 to 125. His winrate at 40+ minutes the late game where a tank should shine is 47%. He is losing his player base really fast. You should can only be a insane lad if you think he is in a good spot now. There is no reason to pick him at all, maybe if your team really need a disengage and your suport goes tank.

Lee brakes another design rule. "If you make mistakes you should pay for that". Did a wrong engage? Try hoping away. Q away if there is a enemy creep or monster. Wasted everything? Use that ultimate that will stop the chase and cripple anyone that is following you. Good thing he has such high move speed.

It would be good if they nerfed his move speed to 330.

TroiannDec 30, 20153 votes

He's not getting reworked any time soon.

pE4CbxDPQODec 30, 20151 votes

Leave my KnifeCat alone.

FrickendaChickenDec 30, 20151 votes

is it not true tho? (P.S. I love rengar I have him at rank 4 and he was the first champion I ever earned a pentakill, and just recently had 30ish kills with him in aram.)

ViashinoWizardDec 30, 20151 votes

You forgot AP Rengar shouting at people so loud they exploded.

FrickendaChickenDec 30, 20151 votes

That too, and he still can do that to some degree. RIOT just can't touch his Kit, he's too fragile of a champion.

The DeckownerDec 30, 20151 votes

even taric ww yorick urgot shen sion didnt get a rework, rengar is nowhere near getting one.

PixTronDec 30, 20151 votes

Yes, but in the meantime, we should still complain about Rengar. Riot might smite his kit before the rework. :D

FrickendaChickenDec 30, 20151 votes

I made a post above this saying why they can't just nerf him or any assassin for that matter.

FrickendaChickenDec 30, 20151 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

GreenjeyDec 30, 20151 votes

Are we sure they are reworking him tho ? Do we have a source or is this just long-term assumption ?

No offense, i can totally see why they could rework him, but the last time a rioter talked about him, he just said they don't have plan for him except giving his ult more counterplay. I'm just asking that because Rengar isn't the only binary champ who get periodical QQ hate (trynda, leblonk, riven, yasuo...), and none of them are up for a rework.

FrickendaChickenDec 30, 20151 votes

They did say he was impossible to rebalance, meaning that the ONE thing left for them to do is to rework Rengar.

Vik4prezDec 30, 20151 votes

What if they changed his ult so it doesn't provide stealth inherently anymore? Like, he still gets the movespeed and the ability to "sense" enemies or whatever, but remains fully visible UNLESS he enters a bush, in which case he is granted a short duration of stealth and the ability to leap at his target. I think it would provide at least a small amount of potential counter play to his ult without gutting it completely and wouldn't mess with any of his numbers so his ability to actually kill a target would remain the same.

FrickendaChickenDec 30, 20151 votes

Then he would lose his ability to jump the backline. Rengar's particular idea of jumping the backline is to go past everyone with stealth-which is counterable by true sight. If they remove his 1 way of getting to someone (keep in mind he will most likely die against a co-ordinated team the moment he jumps out) safely, then he has no way of doing hos job

I made a reply somewhere on this thread about why they can't just nerf him and assassins. Think of balancing a champion or item like glass. You want to place things on the glass. Removing something too soon or too forcefully will break it. Putting too much on it will break it. You need to find that equilibrium.