Riot is basically killing AP Mages in mid

RG Velean··146 votes·6,995 views

As a mid lane main (preferably a control or siege mage) Riot is essentially killing the ability to survive in mid as a mage against an ad assassin. Athene's has been made to be used on only AP champs that have sheild's (yay for a lux and ori buff that was definitely needed. kappa). Zhonyas has been lowered in price, lowered the AP received from it, increased the CD of the active (zed can now ult you again before its up) while giving us 10% CDR. So our one Armour item that was somewhat viable against AD assassins (or even AP assassins) is now less viable because it's weaker and its active is now on a longer cooldown. Thank you Riot, when we said we wanted more AP options we didn't want a rocket belt, we wanted another Amour item that also gives us combat stats...

Edit: To anyone curious of the source of this info

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/79cto3EB-planned-69-mana-x-mp5-x-ap-x-mr-item-pass

200 Comments

Trylobyte33 votes

I too enjoy making doomsday predictions based on PBE changes that even the Rioter who made them said are highly experimental and might backfire spectacularly.

Pentarina Only48 votes

When has Riot ever not gone through with an item change or champion change on the PBE.

WoonStruck36 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pentarina Only,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FBo2N8Vq,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-04-07T14:33:57.605+0000)

When has Riot ever not gone through with an item change or champion change on the PBE.

Lots of times, actually. Apparently you don't watch the PBE closely enough.

TNHA Baritone18 votes

People just upvoted it because he said it confidently lol

WoonStruck2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Midnight Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FBo2N8Vq,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-07T15:21:57.883+0000)

People just upvoted it because he said it confidently lol

I was at -6 earlier lol.

Apparently people don't know what they want to think.

Velzard of Koz6 votes

Or maybe there's more than 6 people on the boards, some of them agreeing and some of them disagreeing.

Pentarina Only2 votes

No people upvoted me because I have a brain

TNHA Baritone2 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/73ab4c8525db5a89941e20fb6c3f898a.png

Nice Brain.

Don't talk slick and expect people not to come back at you.

Pentarina Only8 votes

What does this prove?

TNHA Baritone2 votes

Well you implied that since you have a brain, since you think logically, people will upvote you which also implies that people aren't upvoting those who go against you because they arent thinking logically.

AD Thresh top is unconventional and illogical. It proves that we all have a different opinion on a certain think so just because a few upvoted you, doesn't mean you're always thinking so logically.

Dextix LT12 votes

Ad thresh is unconventional, but far from illogical, he has the power to make it, especially with the e passive. So you pinting to one experimental build is childish and proves nothing about a person.

Nameless Voice86 votes

When it was a change to Lee Sin.

Pentarina Only17 votes

This made me spit out my drink

RG Velean29 votes

You my friend deserve the upvote*[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]*

Snowplosion5 votes

and a Riven. And Morde's title.

13743428 votes

Remember that abyssal scepter change last year that basically turned it into an MR version of sunfire cape?

TNHA Baritone4 votes

When they gave Karma an team dmg amp on her W

Nameless Voice22 votes

Uh, I fail to see how Athene's is a buff for Ori or Lux. It had its mana regeneration removed, its mana-on-kill/asssist removed, its AP lowered, and instead has a passive that only works on allied champions, which most mid-laners won't actually want unless their main focus is protecting their ADC rather than dealing damage?

Mimy4 votes

IT'S NOW A "MAGE" SUPPORT ITEM!

Kynami6 votes

That mostly won't be used because 40 AP is peanuts. Lousy slot efficiency.

Mimy4 votes

Not for Sona spamming Q building up the blood charge and then negate all their damage with one W...

RG Velean4 votes

Because people pick mid laner's like Ori, Lux, or Lulu for utility (at least anyone in premades or higher elo) the passive will apply more utility to those champs

Spaceman5pff3 votes

This is especially tru to Lulu, though. The only great AP scaling she has is / was on her W. (cant remember if they made the ms stop scaling with ap)

Getting the likes of item 3157 item 3174 item 3504 on lulu (if these changes go thru) would make her a much improved utility bot, while only marginally hurting her dmg output, since her damage never scaled extremely well with ap, anyways.

TotalJerk4 votes

Because Ori and Lux aren't who it's for, anymore. They've shifted the item towards supports, and added other items for mids like them.

Amelie12 votes

Definitely not a buff. New Athene's is a support item. Either these types of mages will go bot lane, or your mid laner becomes a glorified support. :|

Supports may actually be stronger than some mid laners...????

Haunt21 votes

We're talking about AD assassins. What does buying an Athenes have to do with that? You don't rush Athenes into AD Assassins, that's the opposite of what you do. That is irreverent to this thread and you're just finding more things to complain about for the sake of complaining.

Zed's ult: Death Mark RANGE: 625 COOLDOWN: 120 / 100 / 80

Active Stasis Cooldown: 90 --> 120

Zed can ult again before it's up? Really? "Oh he has CDR" So what he get's... 10 seconds to go in. You can't play safe for that amount of time? Take exhaust and barrier too. In my elo people don't have any problems countering Zed with all of these bruiser/tank builds and Iceborns's being spammed. Take some notes on it.

You get a bit less damage for CDR and a MASSIVE gold decrease. This is GOOD for you. Are we not going to talk about any of the other items that are GREAT here? No? We're just going to single out an item that is actually going to be better? Ok, makes perfect sense.

This is illogical.

Captain Aishi2 votes

In diamond, zed has the 4th higest winrate of all champions for the past month at 54%, so it would seem that they do, in fact, have problems countering zed

Haunt1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Aishi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FBo2N8Vq,comment-id=00310001,timestamp=2016-04-07T22:41:05.062+0000)

In diamond, zed has the 4th higest winrate of all champions for the past month at 54%, so it would seem that they do, in fact, have problems countering zed

Diamond is a hell of a lot different than Master Tier.

Captain Aishi3 votes

master tier alone generally has too few games to pull reliable statistics from due to high variance in a small sample size

but from what can be seen, in masters/challenger tier, on a 19 day sample size, he has four days below 50% winrate, lowest being at 38.5% meanwhile he has 10 of those days at above 55% winrate with the higest being 68.5%

so that would indicate that on average he is an incredibly strong pick in the highest levels of play as well

ComeOnAndSlamJam18 votes

Mid mages have been obsolete for a while. Mostly due to no good itemization for mana and armor.

Makes playing against resourceless AD hard.

AD mids having waveclear on par with, or better than AP mids makes it impossible.

AD mid will just clear waves really hard, forcing you to do the same or fall behind in CS, then once they've run you out of mana, they'll beat you to death. Or go gank while you desperately try to clear with whimpy mage autos.

Onerios7 votes

It's literally just zed that's the issue. All the other ad mids are either mana gated or forced into melee range where they become prime targets to be hit with aoe spells, clearing minions and keeping their health down at the same time, but zed kind of circumvents it due to the extra range on his q and the shadow. On the other hand he constantly ends up getting nerfed for it, so that problem should be solved in time.

Nameless Voice2 votes

I'd argue that Yasuo is also the issue, because sure he's forced to get closer, but his entire kit negates a lot of mages completely, while still giving him decent free waveclear.

Çhåryzård10 votes

If you're going to touch Zhonyas' damage then why would you increase the cooldown on it? Or if you're going to touch the cooldown why decrease the damage?

All of these changes are in preparation for the mage changes but when are those happening? We are supposedly getting new items, but how long until those mage changes? These current item changes suck, why not just apply them much closer to the mage update

Very Hard Engage5 votes

its because they reduced the price. that was their main justification for increasing the active CD.

RG Velean12 votes

But it makes it way less viable. Rushing it against a Zed or Talon is no longer as effective since now they just have to wait until their ult is up again because your Zhonyas is still down

Spaceman5pff5 votes

Yeah but commiting to hourglass rush is a shitty idea. Just rush a few dorans + seekers, then re-evaluate the situation. you might not even need to complete the hourglass right away, unless you over-aggressed and gave up kills or didnt punish their roams.

TotalJerk2 votes

That was still the case before. Zed and Talon's ults are lower than the Zhonya's CD, regardless.

AMYS GRAVE4 votes

Zed rank 1 ult has 120 sec cooldwon, zhonyas was 90.

Presently Absent9 votes

The recent dialogue involving itemization has been about 'magnifying strengths and weaknesses', so why then did all of the marksman itemization changes magnify their strengths and gloss over their weaknesses? AD champions (specifically marksmen) have crit, lifesteal, attack speed, and attack damage. Mages get ability power, mana regen (rip), and cdr. But wait, AD champions have Essence Reaver. And Black Cleaver. And Death's Dance. And Trinity Force. And Ghostblade. Meanwhile mages can't take advantage of any 'AD' stats but marksmen can have unlimited mana and maxed cdr from two items that also give attack damage and crit chance. AD champions have the advantage taking dragons, baron, AND turrets. AD champions can deal damage with basic attacks AND abilities. Mages only have their abilities. Mages have waveclear? Build SS and one-shot minion waves. AD champions can build defensively without much penalty (QSS build/Maw + many AD items grant health/lifesteal/anti-burst). Meanwhile Zhonya's active is getting nerfed.

Need a dispel? Build QSS! AP? Better take summoner 1 and lose a summoner.

Lanes: AD can go top lane (bruisers/tanks), mid lane (assassins), jungle (dominated by AD. Runic Echoes ends up being abused by champions it wasn't even intended for; Udyr, Hecarim), and bot (marksmen). Mages? Mid...support kinda. Maybe top if you get a cheese match up?

Keystone masteries: Warlords? AD. Fervor? AD. Deathfire Touch, the arguably 'for ap' mastery of this tier, is absolute garbage on all but Cassiopeia or Malzahar and sees most of its use on, you guessed it, AD champions; Jhin and Varus. Not only because it scales way better with AD, but also because it's heavily nerfed for AoE effects which is most mage abilities by default. Stormraiders? Assassins. Then you have the Tenacity tree which is for tanks, but can be used by AD champions (specifically bruisers) to great success. The only option really is Thunderlords.

Why can a marksman have infinite sustain, unlimited mana, max cdr, damage, attack speed, crit, and more** in the same build** while mages get sub-optimal build paths to buy their sole, one dimensional, counter item? And we wonder why we have quadruple AD teams, often triple marksmen, and Rammus flew out into the meta faster than a homeguarded Quinn. Plenty of marksmen bring teamfight/cleave damage (cough Sivir cough) and tanks bring plenty of CC. You pretty much only bring a mage out of necessity for an AP threat. Proof? When the enemy team has no tanks you put an AD champion in every position.

The itemization for AD is just flat out better. AD is more versatile and its items are more loaded with stats and effects. These changes benefit one-kill rotation AP champions and AP tanks; neither of which needed any help. Traditional mages needed more options, more variety in itemization and power spikes, not _more _ restrictions in a meta that already strangles them.

I suppose it's too early to tell what with the updates coming. Who knows, maybe mages will be broken OP. But when they released the AD item changes it made more stats more readily available to AD champions. That's not what these changes appear to be for AP champions, and that makes me sad.

Very Hard Engage4 votes

the only hope is that the champion changes will be huge compensation buffs, focusing in utility abilities and scaling. which we all know wont happen.

scalings are never changed on champions. only base damages.

Spaceman5pff6 votes

Ekko, Fizz. irelia this patch.

Ziggs ult within the last few patches. Mundo E scaling shortly after they buffed his e.

Multiple changes to the passive on tahm kench ult scaling.

Just off the top of my head.... should I go on?

Hakuna Matatah3 votes

Omg you're bronze 4. why am i arguing....

RG Velean8 votes

Funny part is, I know what I'm talking about. I was Silver last season and haven't played a lot of games this season. Also, I'm not talking about trying to 1v1 a champ, I'm talking about laning in a 1v1 situation. Also, I don't main lux, I've played her once.

Pengod7 votes

[{quoted}](name=RG Velean,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FBo2N8Vq,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2016-04-07T16:10:26.854+0000)

Funny part is, I know what I'm talking about. I was Silver last season and haven't played a lot of games this season. Also, I'm not talking about trying to 1v1 a champ, I'm talking about laning in a 1v1 situation. Also, I don't main lux, I've played her once.

I'm not bashing on you but, you shouldn't back up your "knowledge" with "I was silver last season". Someone else will assault you for it. Also, you are talking about 1v1ing a champion. Lux v Zed, if zed ults on you and does damage and you want that zhonyas active for it, it's a 1v1. He is advancing onto you, alone.

RG Velean1 votes

I'm not backing it up with what rank I was, but this guy seems to think rank means everything. But I'm talking about a 1v1 lane. AP mid's are loosing a reliable source to survive while also loosing out on damage.

Hakuna Matatah2 votes

I don't think rank means everything. I just think it's silly to argue about a champion who just got nerfed & is supposed to give certain mage picks a difficult time in order to shut them down early on in the game. You basically want zed to not be a thing lol.

RG Velean3 votes

Not true, I think Zed is a fun champ to play, but really punishing to play against.

The Great Divide12 votes

And you're gold: you're point is?

Plus you play mostly Zed and Rengar, so it's not like you have broad experience when it comes to various different AP mids like Syndra, Anivia, and Zyra (who, if these changes go through, are all looking to be in trouble in terms of ability to manage that lane).

Moesnd2 votes

Dumbass control mage mains cant be pleased even when they are getting buffs

agbudar15 votes

the item 3027 change will single handedly nerf so many mages that would rush it.

More from Gameplay

More by RG Velean