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[REALLY Long Rant] Dear and no offence CertainlyT,

SEKAI··8 votes·1,441 views

Do you have any idea how a competitive character roster works?

Because with the reveal of Zoe, I am forced to come back to this question yet again, which happens pretty much every time something is made with your name slapped onto, barring that 1 remake of WW where his design framework seriously hindered you from 'CertainlyT''ing him up and had kept you at bay to begin with.

I mean, how in the name of Rift God did you even get the unofficial title of creative prophet or misunderstood genius in the first place? Because when you're not straight up lifting designs and identities from other already existing champions (Darius and Thresh are the most severe examples, whose core identities and almost the kits themselves are identical to another signature and already existing champions at the time of their creation), you seem to only be capable of making 1 single champion, just different versions of them for different days of the week I suppose; that is, via over-stuffing them with features (occasionally straight up power like the Morde rework), mobility in particular, and market them as being 'fun'.

Fun? O rly?

What's more, all of your (non-rework) champions besides idk, Zyra which you made together with Morello and Coronach, were seemingly all made to ANSWER a very specific position in the meta, while shamelessly attempting to be the kings and queens of it. No kidding, Darius were made to dominate the top lane bruiser meta at the time and deliberately made to counter (in gameplay) Garen, the source in which you stole the kit for Darius from; Thresh were of the same boat, just moved to support for the bot lane support meta and up against Blitzcrank; Kalista were made as THE bot lane ADC of the ADC+Support meta, by combining the most beneficial aspects from Vayne and Ashe, and it worked out perfectly; Zed (I think you made this guy?) were THE mid lane, who were basically uncounterable for the entire duration until you finished Zhonya, is almost ungankable, and with supreme roam potentials, which are all great perks for mid lane's meta role... yadi yada yada, you get the idea. That's some VERY meta design philosophy you've got there, huh? Like, seriously, what even are your champion's identity besides having them outright being 'answers' with so little of their own reasons to exist on their own? Like, who in the bloody hell are they? Yes, that's right, answer me, WHO IN THE BLOODY HELL ARE YOUR CHAMPIONS? So much for creativity I suppose?

But I guess I'm going off-track a bit: Here's the deal, coming back to the question I've imposed and left hanging above to cook, do you have any idea how a competitive character roster works?

Because you don't.

Because you and your fanboys/fangirls don't understand the simple fact that the point of a roster is to have and support a diverse range of themes and playstyles. And your design philosophy, one as explained above, that is void of legitimate individuality in the characters and reasons for their existence, is artificially loaded without a single care (probably because you know, those characters are not made and treated as characters to begin with, but rather as just an 'answer tag'), and is disgustingly meta (despite the seemingly popular belief that it's not, they're so very wrong) while you're at it, is at a serious odds with it. Because they all require the game itself, as in League of Legends itself, to adjust its holy ass around your champions, or else your champions will NEVER be balanced due to their blatantly unfair base design; and yeah imagine my shocker to see all of your designs have been nerfed many times, reworked (some multiple times), while others are announced for their rework, and none of them have been out long enough to warrant a gameplay update so you know the problem is elsewhere.

Why is this such a big deal you might ask?

Because maybe, just maybe, other champions exist in this roster, and there are other players other side too, on the receiving end of your BS? Because it's not about just you having mad fun, and fuck everybody else? If you don't like other champions affecting your champion design, and I'm sure you don't like it considering you are going so out of your way to deliberately make your designs outright incompatible with the rest of the roster and general gameplay pattern of League and similar games in the genre for that matter, so why in the bloodly hell do you expect so much for the game to balance itself around you? Can't you strike a balance somewhere, you know, that 1 oh-so insignificant thing that you absolutely don't seem to really give a shit about?

You'd think when you're on the board with a bunch of designers in the same sharing space of the roster, you'd at least respect their playstyle/design philosophy and pay at least some sort of care towards your creations that make them compatible with the others, just like they also make their stuff compatible with you. But I guess not, because you're CertainlyT I suppose. I utterly fail to see why is it that you seem to get a pass on ridiculously ego-centric designs and expecting others to conform to you with almost no intent in trying to work with others, especially after so many releases of your creations already, and time and time again whenever you pull your shit everyone would just give you a pass while other designers have been burned on the stake for far less.

At least to your credit and props to you, the artistic integrity is at least better than before. Previously your conceptual designs have all been very 'hand-wavy' and/or ridiculously generic like the kewl shadow ninja with brother complex, kewl dishonoured wind samurai out for vengeance, 2 angry wraiths mad at slightly different things, and oh what's this, Mordekaiser rework, the Lord of fucking Death? At least you're breaking away from the bottom levels of DeviantArt OC it would seem, and embrace something actually worthwhile design-wise like the recent rework of WW where he's now a chemically-altered werewolf, and this new little happy-go-lucky star princesses who is pretty adorable and full of positive energy I must admit. Great. Awesome. Pretty neat.

But the main problem is still unchanged, your gameplay design. They're unfair, uncaring, boring (imo), and contrived, at a fundamental level. I would probably blame half of the responsibility on the fanboys/fangirls, I guess if you're surrounded by their almost-ADD/ADHD tendencies, their incomprehensibility to the notion of balance as well as strategy and tactics (remember, League is meant to be a STRATEGY game, not a twitch shooter!), and their obsession with the same thing over and over, you'd probably feel that it's exactly what people are looking for. But you know, you still share the other half of the problem by hearing exclusively from them, seemingly not giving a single respect and fuck to your designer peers and their work as well as the health of the game as a whole while expecting the game itself to fit around you for some reason, and doing and same shit over and over and OVER. It's not creative, it's not balanced, it's just NOT FUN.

It is high time to put your perceived reputation of a creative genius to where it is due, that and, actually work with other members in the design team for Rift God's sake. That is it, that's all this mounts up to.

Kind regards,

An mad Silver rank player who probably doesn't know wtf they're talking about

.............

EDIT: I do more or less expect this thread will be quickly buried by downvotes and/or just ignored entirely, most likely. However I do feel and very much hope that, this should in one way or the other, make it to the Riot design team somehow, even just as a 1 line summary, because I absolutely feel CertainlyT needs this call badly.

12 Comments

k wìx3 votes

You don't even know what the new champion is capable of yet.

SEKAI1 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EreE2ZvE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-11-04T12:56:39.198+0000)

You don't even know what the new champion is capable of yet.

Stealing Flashes as a main draw is already enough to form this criticism, because CT doesn't seem to have changed their design philosophy where other players (both ally and opponents) will always be forced to conform and play around them but never the other way around, either through 1-sided interaction or some random and definitely not deserved innate advantage of sort, which is why I called briefly that their design are "ego-centric". That and, it would also seem their obsession with spamming kits also hasn't changed much either, which is also why I called their gameplay design shticks played out and boring at this stage because it's just almost the same champion over and over, nor is it fun.

It's also got some points addressing other things but the above are the main points.

k wìx3 votes

{quoted}

Stealing Flashes as a main draw is already enough to form this criticism

'Stealing' implies the champions steals it, meaning the original person looses it, and the new champion would gain it. This isn't accurate, it's more like 'copying' .. and we have absolutely no context on how it works, which is why I think your criticism is built on nothing.

CT doesn't seem to have changed their design philosophy where other players (both ally and opponents) will always be forced to conform and play around them but never the other way around, either through 1-sided interaction or some random and definitely not deserved innate advantage of sort, which is why I called briefly that their design are "ego-centric".

I want to see some examples on this one. What exactly do you mean by 'forced to conform' ? This sounds like every champion. I also think that you have to change your play based on every single champion that gets picked, not just CertainlyTs... Please elaborate - because I dont understand!

That and, it would also seem their obsession with spamming kits also hasn't changed much either, which is also why I called their gameplay design shticks played out and boring at this stage because it's just almost the same champion over and over, nor is it fun.

Again, as with the first point, you literally have no context other than a video. You need to wait until we LEARN how the champions kit works. Your criticism is unfounded.

SEKAI1 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EreE2ZvE,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-11-04T13:30:10.519+0000)

I want to see some examples on this one. What exactly do you mean by 'forced to conform' ? This sounds like every champion. I also think that you have to change your play based on every single champion that gets picked, not just CertainlyTs... Please elaborate - because I dont understand!

CT's champs are mostly unique in the aspect that no other champs will have a core aspect of their icon to force his allies to click on the lantern (Thresh), to be bound with another champ as well as being pulled into their pocket without their consent (Kalista), to get killed over and over before you rushed Zhonya's unless you have mad zoning (Zed), having the ability to proc on any knockup even though the CD is already non-existent and thus would be used to demand of teammates (Yasuo), Yasuo's fucking lane phase, etc; at least a designer won't have almost their entire library have this attribute.

It's 1 thing to have a team comp that synergise, it's another matter entirely where you basically say I have my abilities, but the responsibilities is on you and not on me to pull it off; or a simple "because fuck you that's why" against the opponents. It's an incredibly selfish way to design their champions. Like, why would anyone think holding all participants in a match (both allies and opponents) as some forms of hostage to their whim, one way or the other, is a bright idea? I mean at least Lee and Vi has to click on you themselves, to set the play that mostly involves themselves doing it, whereas CT's champs just put the responsibility part of the equation on others for whatever reason. But sure enough, that's CT's idea of teamplay, I suppose, where I only needed to care, and it's your responsibility to keep up with me.

I probably didn't do a good job explaining it, but I'll put it in a word that summarise it, CT's designs are literal bullies, where this new champion might follow that exact same toxic pattern of "all for one" depending on how she 'steals' the summoner's.

........

I also used it that 'forced to conform' to point that CT doesn't want to compromise any of his overloading routine, but expects others to balance and re-design the entire game around them instead. This sentiment is shared by his fanboys who believe that instead of fixing CT's champions, the rest of the 120+ champs and the entire game should be fixed instead. Again, playing to the notion that CT is ultimately somewhat of a ego-centric designer.

........

I hope I'm wrong. I WANT to be wrong. But I fear the worst, because CT's track record has given me a solid reason to, and the teaser is not giving me much confidence.

Salson2 votes

An mad Silver rank player who probably doesn't know wtf they're talking about

Yup

SEKAI2 votes

{quoted}

Yup

Why spare the trouble of actually arguing with someone's point when you can just take someone's humbling gesture and demean them and dismiss their entire argument with it?

Flawless rebuttal.

Salson1 votes

Oh come on, the situation was literally perfect.

I'll get serious now. I like how, with the exception of first Darius, none of his champions are effortless.

You have these point and click champs like Cho, Ramus, Malza, Twitch and Lulu. They do their job without requiring any effort on the player's part.

At least I can outplay Yasuo or Thresh.

The one part I agree with is him reusing old designs. Probably why he's better in the rework team.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

Oh come on, the situation was literally perfect.

I'll get serious now. I like how, with the exception of first Darius, none of his champions are effortless.

You have these point and click champs like Cho, Ramus, Malza, Twitch and Lulu. They do their job without requiring any effort on the player's part.

At least I can outplay Yasuo or Thresh.

The one part I agree with is him reusing old designs. Probably why he's better in the rework team.

The instant you bring up point and click as "no effort" without understanding how it balances out with skillshots (Point and clock has lower range than skillshots, and can't be used as a probing tool/blind-firing and 'hip-firing'), as well as failing to understand the fact couterplaying and outplaying doesn't just and only exist between champions in combat range and/or that limited scope of counterplay is also by no means the definitive element of it, you lose the argument already.

That said, I do tend to share the sentiment that they're probably better off in the rework team at this stage.

EDIT: It isn't to say that nonsense like Cho and Lulu etc don't have their problems, but it's generally less to do with lock-ons.

Salson1 votes

The instant you bring up point and click as "no effort" without understanding how it balances out with skillshots (Point and clock has lower range than skillshots, and can't be used as a probing tool/blind-firing and 'hip-firing')

You should know as well as I do (I'm Gold btw), that this does not apply for the 90% of us below Plat. What you're confusing is not understanding something and hating something are not the same thing.

as well as failing to understand the fact couterplaying and outplaying doesn't just existing between champions in combat range and/or that limited scope of counterplay is also by no means the definitive element of it, you lose the argument already.

Which is why not even Faker can solo kill a Malzahar, even though he's objectively a better player. Again, I get it, I just hate it.

So do tell, why should I bot speak about changing a flawed system that I hate? If you want point-and-click to actually take skill, look at Darius's ult which needs stacks, or Vlad's Q which also needs stacks.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

You should know as well as I do (I'm Gold btw), that this does not apply for the 90% of us below Plat. What you're confusing is not understanding something and hating something are not the same thing.

Which is why not even Faker can solo kill a Malzahar, even though he's objectively a better player. Again, I get it, I just hate it.

Okay.

So do tell, why should I bot speak about changing a flawed system that I hate? If you want point-and-click to actually take skill, look at Darius's ult which needs stacks, or Vlad's Q which also needs stacks.

Because "checking" is a part of this partially strategy game. That and there is also nothing wrong to have certain levels of guarantees. Remember, League is not a twitch shooter.

If you're caught out by an assassin in the middle of nowhere while you're squishy or low on HP, you've already been outplayed (again, outplaying and such doesn't just exist between champs in combat range, it exists out of it too). There is very little reason for the game to by default allow you to gracefully survive that encounter or even beat the assassin outright that has already outplayed you and should already be receiving their reward. There is no problem to have an assassin delete you with a single target lock-down that you can't seemingly escape from in that scenario. It's not like they haven't forgone most of their potential just to be good at killing solo targets, anyway.

I mean sure, this is not to say Rengar 100-0 instantly from stealth (or worse, Twitch does that from range and shreds the entire team) or Cho's infamous RG+Stoneplate ulti 1 shot while swinging 7000 HP doesn't have its problems; but it's less to do with lock-on itself, as they tread in the same realm as flash-TibberStun, which is not a lock-on. The deal is that certain combination of a kit's element make them frustrating or outright unfair to play against, lock-on is by no means the center of the problem but merely a potential contributor, just like ANY other mechanics in the game; because the problem is how much and how it's combined, and not what is.

I mean sure, having some sort of chance to retaliate even when you're checked is nice and needed, lest the entire game becomes a giant peek-a-boo, but you also can't just forego the entire concept of 'checking' while you're at it.

To hammer on the point, just like lock-ons may be flawed, so are skillshots. Because if you populate the entire game with it, the problem is that the 1 definitive counter to mobility, being the lock-ons, is no longer in the game. And guess what happens when you have an ecosystem where something doesn't have a counter.

So no, I don't believe lock-on itself is the center of the problem or that they're exclusively and uniquely flawed and without legitimate reasons to be in the game. Lock-ons already come at both disadvantages and advantages to begin with, just like any other aspects of the game, I don't feel it needs to prove itself so much to be accepted; again, just like any other elements in the game, the issue usually lies in its implementation rather than their existence.

Salson1 votes

Guess we just have different ideas about League.

the issue usually lies in its implementation rather than their existence....

I do agree about this though. I actually like conditional lock-ons, like those of Darius, Vlad, Kayn, Kindred. Then again, conditional effects are never no-effort by design.

Khristophoros2 votes

This is pretty much true but honestly I don't think it should be directed at CertainlyT. Other game designers at Riot have done the same thing or worse. It's just been forgotten because it's been so many years.

This post should be directed at Riot itself because regardless of which designer is in charge of a new champion, the whole company is complicit with whatever makes it through the design process. They're saying, yes, this is ok, we're going to release it.

In many cases Riot has given us new champs that powercreeped the meta at the time. That's on Riot. Riot has to stop letting that happen. They have to have a better overall design direction so that a designer like CertainlyT has a guideline for what he's supposed to do. If there's no such guideline then honestly you can't blame the guy they assigned to design the champ's kit. The problem here is the high level direction of the champion design team.

BTW, where is the reasoning that Zoe's design has the same problem? I know it's easy to assume it will happen again because it's CertainlyT but there's nothing we can tell from the teaser that indicates it.

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