Just remove Tenacity

Mordepool·Jul 4, 2018·4 votes·846 views

That's it just remove it from the game.

Other than a obvious drop in winrate on a few melee champions. The ineffectual stat won't be missed. So why keep it. It doesn't do its job.

14 Comments

MordepoolJul 4, 20183 votes

Seriously though. How much would actually change.

Stun comps are still OP even with stacking tenacity so WTF is the point

Teridax68Jul 4, 20182 votes

I'd actually support this. Tenacity has always had the unfortunate effect of setting older CC-heavy champions in two states, one where the CC they depend on is not yet reduced by Tenacity, and another where it is. It's the reason why we used to have so many champions with hard CC on a 3-second cooldown (e.g. Fiddle and Rammus prior to nerfs, Morgana still), because their durations needed to be inflated just to be able to cope with getting reduced by 35%. It's also the reason why we have so much Tenacity-immune CC now, because it allowed champions to have one constant duration to their crowd control, even if it came at a cost to the stat's value and meaning. An environment without Tenacity is one where the developers wouldn't have to resort to these unsavory tricks just because they want a stun to last a certain duration.

However, if this is to happen, I'd like 2 more things to accompany this change:

Do a CC pass across the board, with the aim of nerfing/removing as much of it as possible. Crowd control is excessive in a great deal many ways at this point: on one hand, increases in CDR across the board have caused crowd control in general to have a lot more uptime, but on top of that, CC has also been given to far too many champions, often to make their abilities "feel good", or to enable combos, without much thought given to whether crowd control is truly meant to be those champions' core contribution, or what impact that would have in the long term if overused. Because CC limits the agency of other players, it needs to be used sparingly, and should only be heavily present on champions meant to specialize in it. We should never be anywhere close to a situation where the same champion can easily kill their opponent in the window that they've hard-CCed them, and while that may call for a reduction in damage across the board, I think that also means reducing/removing CC on a whole lot of champions.
Give juggernauts more tools to resist CC. Right now, juggernauts are defined by extreme short range and low mobility, but also high durability and damage. While this could be an interesting profile in a balanced game, in League's current environment, this has led all too often to juggernauts auto-losing to any form of kiting, because it's far too easy to lock them down. Because these champions have no real tools to avoid incoming crowd control, but also not even the tools to block it, usually, they frequently end up getting locked down and killed just by trying to do their job properly (especially since overly high damage means they die too quickly). Garen's W allowing him to resist CC was a good start, and I think juggernauts as a class deserve to have better access to clear anti-CC mechanics, such as unstoppability, self-cleanses, and so on. This would have three main beneficial effects:
Juggernauts would become less binary, as they'd have more options against kiting, even if they'd still have to slowly march into the enemy team to be effective. On the flipside, this could allow their power at melee range to be given more counterplay, so that they don't just auto-win if they're strong enough.
Juggernauts would become more skill-expressive, as they'd have an extra layer of active defenses to manage on top of their current gameplay. Good juggernaut players would become harder to stop, and could perhaps become more competitively viable as a result, whereas bad juggernaut players would still get kited to death (and the kiting player would feel good for outplaying the juggernaut's anti-CC mechanics, too).
Juggernauts would fit their theme better. The entire idea of the juggernaut is that they're this unstoppable machine of destruction. As it stands right now, juggernauts are very stoppable, namely because most of them have literally no innate tools to resist CC. Being able to power through the enemy's desperate fire should be a major part of the juggernaut class fantasy, one that has barely been touched upon at all, and bringing this to the forefront would paint a much deeper picture of the subclass than just "balls of stats with no range or mobility".

ZephyrDrakeJul 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'd actually support this. Tenacity has always had the unfortunate effect of setting older CC-heavy champions in two states, one where the CC they depend on is not yet reduced by Tenacity, and another where it is. It's the reason why we used to have so many champions with hard CC on a 3-second cooldown (e.g. Fiddle and Rammus prior to nerfs, Morgana still), because their durations needed to be inflated just to be able to cope with getting reduced by 35%. It's also the reason why we have so much Tenacity-immune CC now, because it allowed champions to have one constant duration to their crowd control, even if it came at a cost to the stat's value and meaning. An environment without Tenacity is one where the developers wouldn't have to resort to these unsavory tricks just because they want a stun to last a certain duration.

However, if this is to happen, I'd like 2 more things to accompany this change:

Do a CC pass across the board, with the aim of nerfing/removing as much of it as possible. Crowd control is excessive in a great deal many ways at this point: on one hand, increases in CDR across the board have caused crowd control in general to have a lot more uptime, but on top of that, CC has also been given to far too many champions, often to make their abilities "feel good", or to enable combos, without much thought given to whether crowd control is truly meant to be those champions' core contribution, or what impact that would have in the long term if overused. Because CC limits the agency of other players, it needs to be used sparingly, and should only be heavily present on champions meant to specialize in it. We should never be anywhere close to a situation where the same champion can easily kill their opponent in the window that they've hard-CCed them, and while that may call for a reduction in damage across the board, I think that also means reducing/removing CC on a whole lot of champions.

Give juggernauts more tools to resist CC. Right now, juggernauts are defined by extreme short range and low mobility, but also high durability and damage. While this could be an interesting profile in a balanced game, in League's current environment, this has led all too often to juggernauts auto-losing to any form of kiting, because it's far too easy to lock them down. Because these champions have no real tools to avoid incoming crowd control, but also not even the tools to block it, usually, they frequently end up getting locked down and killed just by trying to do their job properly (especially since overly high damage means they die too quickly). Garen's W allowing him to resist CC was a good start, and I think juggernauts as a class deserve to have better access to clear anti-CC mechanics, such as unstoppability, self-cleanses, and so on. This would have three main beneficial effects:

Juggernauts would become less binary, as they'd have more options against kiting, even if they'd still have to slowly march into the enemy team to be effective. On the flipside, this could allow their power at melee range to be given more counterplay, so that they don't just auto-win if they're strong enough.

Juggernauts would become more skill-expressive, as they'd have an extra layer of active defenses to manage on top of their current gameplay. Good juggernaut players would become harder to stop, and could perhaps become more competitively viable as a result, whereas bad juggernaut players would still get kited to death (and the kiting player would feel good for outplaying the juggernaut's anti-CC mechanics, too).

Juggernauts would fit their theme better. The entire idea of the juggernaut is that they're this unstoppable machine of destruction. As it stands right now, juggernauts are very stoppable, namely because most of them have literally no innate tools to resist CC. Being able to power through the enemy's desperate fire should be a major part of the juggernaut class fantasy, one that has barely been touched upon at all, and bringing this to the forefront would paint a much deeper picture of the subclass than just "balls of stats with no range or mobility".

yes, let's get rid of their core weakness because "it'll fit their theme better" yeah, nothing like someone running down at you and you being unable to do anything at all... unless this comes along with "their damage is severely nerfed" then no sorry

MordepoolJul 4, 20182 votes

You missed the point

Teridax68Jul 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

yes, let's get rid of their core weakness because "it'll fit their theme better" yeah, nothing like someone running down at you and you being unable to do anything at all... unless this comes along with "their damage is severely nerfed" then no sorry

... but it doesn't remove their core weakness? They'd still be short-ranged and immobile? If a champion managed to get within melee range of you and trade extensively when you didn't want to, all by just walking up to you, then CC or no CC, that's on you. I very much agree to giving juggernauts more counterplay beyond just "don't get in melee range of them", because currently they screw over other melee champions when they're powerful, but removing that binariness goes both ways. If you want to stand a chance against a juggernaut while within their kill range, they should also have a real chance at getting within range of their targets.

ZephyrDrakeJul 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

... but it doesn't remove their core weakness? They'd still be short-ranged and immobile? If a champion managed to get within melee range of you and trade extensively when you didn't want to, all by just walking up to you, then CC or no CC, that's on you. I very much agree to giving juggernauts more counterplay beyond just "don't get in melee range of them", because currently they screw over other melee champions when they're powerful, but removing that binariness goes both ways. If you want to stand a chance against a juggernaut while within their kill range, they should also have a real chance at getting within range of their targets.

you can say this all you want. When all juggernauts lose a massive amounts of damage then they can actually have better access to their targets

Teridax68Jul 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

you can say this all you want. When all juggernauts lose a massive amounts of damage then they can actually have better access to their targets

Why? Do juggernauts even deal too much damage right now? From the looks of it, it doesn't seem to be the case, as many of them are getting out-traded by divers, which shouldn't be happening in extended trades (in fact, with the current design of juggernauts it shouldn't be happening at all). There is perhaps room for more counterplay, and therefore for juggernaut damage to be less reliable at melee range (which should translate to a net reduction in damage), but I don't think juggernaut damage needs to be flat-out nerfed, while still retaining the same amount of reliability.

MordepoolJul 4, 20182 votes

You should just repost this. 100% better than my post

EvenJul 4, 20181 votes

What?

MordepoolJul 4, 20182 votes

If something has no practical application and is completely ineffectual. Then removing it doesn't have a downside.

Tenacity= useless = remove useless from the game

Warlord RhinarkJul 4, 20181 votes

Just make it able to reduce the duration of Knockups and Tenacity would instantly become 100x times more viable.

MordepoolJul 4, 20181 votes

If being hit by CC = death. ( Which currently it does) then what is the point of a MINOR reduction

Warlord RhinarkJul 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If being hit by CC = death. ( Which currently it does) then what is the point of a MINOR reduction

Cc has always equaled to death.

This isn't exactly a new concept.

Knockups/displacements being added into literally every new champions' kit, however, is.

MordepoolJul 4, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EqevMY7r,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-07-04T07:06:22.581+0000)

Cc has always equaled to death.

I'll remind you tank metas have existed