I don't think Koggy is ever going to be balanced if Live Balance sticks to their current path on him

Rebonack··5 votes·717 views

Right now Koggy is in the top ten least played champions in the game and is sitting on a sub-50% win-rate. He rarely gets picked because, while his damage may be impressive, the degree to which he's unsafe more or less invalidates that damage. When Koggy was originally made he had an extra 50 auto-attack range when his W was up and the game's selection of 'super mobile kill things instantly' Assassins was quite a bit more limited. That range was enough of a 'defense' to keep him out of harms way so he could do his job, but with the state the game is in now it just isn't working out.

Truth is, the only time Koggy has been a common pick in anything but super-organized play has been when he's drastically over-tuned. Like back when his Q multiplied all his attack speed by 1.3 or when his W active doubled his bonus attack damage. That means there's a pretty major disconnect between high-competative play and us mere mortals. Koggy's issue is the same problem old Xin had, just stood on its head. Xin was okay at best in level 30 games pretty much across the board, but he was destroying low level games and as a result Riot nailed him with a bunch of nerfs.

That state of a vast difference in effectiveness between play levels is an indication that there's something wrong with a champion's kit. And I'm pretty sure I can identify what's wrong with Koggy.

See, when he first came out the Void Puppy had a fairly unique play pattern. While he was able to shell foes from the safety of long range (WER), he also had a really nasty bite if someone got close (Innate and Q). So Koggy had, basically, two play patterns. His long range, ideal pattern (shell foes from afar) and his fallback pattern (peel for himself via raw damage and dueling power).

But Riot has changed things up a bit by altering his Q. Not only did that Q change result in a significant boost to his DPS against anything wth more than 80 resist (huge buff. Why in God's name did Riot think buffing Kog's damage was a good idea?), it also lead to Ult nerfs, movespeed nerfs, and an AP ratio nerf. Worst of all, it also made Koggy significantly weaker against soft, highly mobile opponents who are going to try to dive him. Losing the guaranteed damage and flat shred for dueling other Rangers and fighting back against Assassins is a pretty big deal. The new Q is great for his ideal play pattern. It's great for super-organized play, which is the level of play that resulted in Koggles getting his latest round of nerfs. But it's terrible for us mere mortals who have to deal with the Tank trying to chase down kills instead of peeling for poor, vulnerable Koggy.

So with that in mind, I do not think that it's good idea to be buffing Koggy's ideal play pattern. That just makes him stronger in organized play, potentially oppressive when he's over-tuned while having relatively little impact down here in the real world. What Riot should be doing is buffing his fall-back pattern, which has to be employed far more often in solo queue. This would give Koggy players the capacity to actually defend themselves from threats to their adorable little lives. And for that matter, I don't think buffs to Koggy's damage are wise, either. His damage is already great. What should be buffed is the reliability of his damage, especially at close range.

And now a somewhat unrelated poll for Koggy players because I'm curious.

16 Comments

SmokingPuffin3 votes

I think Kog'maw is balanced today. He's a rare pick in competitive play because tank shredding is not in demand at present. He's a rare pick in solo queue because relying on randoms to keep him alive is risky.

Kog will be back once tanks become stronger and assassins take a step back. There's nothing wrong with him, and you can still pick him and win games at any level of play. He just doesn't solve a problem most players have right now.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I think Kog'maw is balanced today. He's a rare pick in competitive play because tank shredding is not in demand at present. He's a rare pick in solo queue because relying on randoms to keep him alive is risky.

Kog will be back once tanks become stronger and assassins take a step back. There's nothing wrong with him, and you can still pick him and win games at any level of play. He just doesn't solve a problem most players have right now.

Problem with that assertion is that even when Tanky folks where at their strongest, Koggy wasn't ever a particularly contested picked (Bruiser meta back in Season 1, Atmog's in Season 2, Shy and Mundo going ham in Pre-season 4). Vayne has always been a more reliable pick against hard targets than Koggy is due to her true damage, mobility, and ample self-peel.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

{quoted}

Problem with that assertion is that even when Tanky folks where at their strongest, Koggy wasn't ever a particularly contested picked (Bruiser meta back in Season 1, Atmog's in Season 2, Shy and Mundo going ham in Pre-season 4).

Balanced champions aren't contested picks. You have to be broken like Corki is every worlds to get into contested zone.

Kog is a specialist, and more League champions should be designed this way. As a result, he'd have to be hilariously broken to become 100% pick/ban, because there are actually things he is bad at.

Vayne has always been a more reliable pick against hard targets than Koggy is due to her true damage, mobility, and ample self-peel.

This kind of thing is why League has a narrow meta. Champions have lots of overlap. Riot is unlikely to make both exactly equally strong, so one will be picked over the other at any given time.

However, it's not true that Vayne is always stronger than Kog. Just for example, Vayne was a super rare pick in League of Warmogs, but Kog saw a solid amount of play. The Lucian matchup colored everything at that time, and Vayne can't handle it while Kog can.

I think Vayne has typically been more picked than Kog over League history, but I don't see why that matters. Champions aren't going to be equally popular, and Vayne has a history of being a super common pick in solo queue even when she's terrible.

Narasimha2 votes

On a side note, Kog saw a lot of play a while back as an anti-Tristana adc. What do you do against the Yordle with good range and peel? Get someone WHO DOESN'T CARE ABOUT IT.

AetherKingdom3 votes

That means there's a pretty major disconnect between high-competative play and us mere mortals.

This quote shows why the anti lee circlejerk is retarded

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

This quote shows why the anti lee circlejerk is retarded

Well, that's a bit off topic. But I suspect the reason why Lee is hated regardless of his win rate is pretty similar to LeB. Their super-high, massively flexible mobility makes them really obnoxious to interact with.

Koggy is very much the opposite. Totally and completely immobile. The fact that his damage is only a bit better than Corki's is really aggravating, given how mobile Corki is.

AetherKingdom1 votes

Yea, the the thing for Kog'maw is that if you have a team that can protect him he is insane, given how he outranges most adcs (except twitch ulting) with his W ( which costs no mana) and also does % health in magic damage per hit, meaning that you can't itemize well against him either.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Yea, the the thing for Kog'maw is that if you have a team that can protect him he is insane, given how he outranges most adcs (except twitch ulting) with his W ( which costs no mana) and also does % health in magic damage per hit, meaning that you can't itemize well against him either.

His range is 710 with his W active, which isn't that different from Trist or Jinx. Difference being, Jinx and Trist can have 100% uptime on their range where as Koggy's can get stalled out.

The lack of being able to itemize against Koggy isn't due to his %HP magic damage, but rather because of his hybrid shred on Q. Believe me, if his W did physical damage instead he would be vastly more powerful since he would be able to grab Whisper and be basically unstoppable.

As for the 'protect the Kog!' mini-game it has always been kinda hit and miss. I'm having trouble imagining that we'll see it again so long as Dragon continues to be as important as it is. Koggy's really weak early game can easily spell a free dragon for the enemy team.

AetherKingdom1 votes

It wouldn't be stronger. Let's say a tank has 250 armor and 150 MR, which isn't uncommon. If Kog had LW, the tank would have like 170 or so effective armor, which is still greater than 150 mr.

Rebonack2 votes

Balanced champions aren't contested picks. You have to be broken like Corki is every worlds to get into contested zone. Kog is a specialist, and more League champions should be designed this way. As a result, he'd have to be hilariously broken to become 100% pick/ban, because there are actually things he is bad at.

Maybe I should restate slightly.

Koggy has always tended to hover right around the 50% win rate. I can't recall a time he's ever really crept above 53% even when he was at his most over-tuned. When I talk about balance, I'm mostly referring to having the ability to pick the little guy without feeling silly. If Riot does decide that they want him to be a pure long-range specialist then something probably needs to be done about his Innate and W downtime. And that would leave him in competition with Trist (trading damage for always having good auto range in addition to self-peel) and Jinx (brings more utility to the table as well as higher damage if she's hitting at least two targets with her splash).

Basically, I'm wanting Koggy to get his strengths emphasized a little better so he stands out a bit more from other champions competing with him to cover similar niches. The reason why I'm suggesting that the close-range bite side of his character be improved is because that's the side of Koggy that's much harder to abuse.

Here, let me provide a pair of Innate remakes that would help to better define the two play patterns Koggy has.

Icathian Surprise: If Koggy uses a basic attack on a foe at 200 range or less he bites them, dealing (amount) True Damage. This ability's cooldown refreshes when Koggy returns to the Summoner Platform.

So basically a more reliable (though single target) equivalent of Kog's live Innate. It would give him a bit of extra burst against someone who tries jumping him, allowing him to potentially peel for himself through raw damage rather than displacement or CC.

Icathian Surprise: Koggy's skills mark enemies hit with a Void Portal for 2 seconds. If the marked foe is outside of Koggy's basic attack range he may bite a them through the portal, consuming the portal, dealing (percentage of total attack damage), and applying OnHit effects.

This would be a replacement if Riot wanted to stick with the 'super long range specialist' play pattern. This Innate would place Koggy as the long range poke ADC, allowing him to nom on targets that he tags with his Ult or other skills. Since this Innate would only trigger if Koggy couldn't normally attack his foe it wouldn't be adding any additional damage to his DPS, but it WOULD allow him to out-poke Ezreal. Obviously I have no idea how much of his AD it would be keyed to (probably less than 100%, probably shouldn't Crit).

So I guess what I'm saying in a rambly sort of way is that Riot needs to either embrace Koggy's 'close range bite' play pattern or just go ham and give him a poke-related Innate. Personally, I think the former would be easier to balance than the latter.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

I'm not going to comment on past seasons, but I believe that Kog'maw's current issue is that many team comps at the moment favour damage-dealers instead of tanks, the ADC picks (i.e. Graves) are strong early and have a lot of burst, and dive comps are quite popular (i.e. Irelia, Vi, etc). He's just not really suited to the current meta, however he still has his place against tanky teams, especially since Janna is popular at the moment and excels at protecting champions like Kog'maw.

I'm not sure what it would take for Kog'maw to become a standard ADC pick again like he was in the later half of season 4, but he definitely has his niche as a counterpick to tanky teams, similar to Trundle.

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

The only problem that I have with Kog'Maw atm is that his passive is goddamn awful. Yes it's truly funny if you can kill someone trying to run away from it, but that's only going to happen if A) they're REALLY low, B) they don't have any mobility, and C) they don't Flash at the last second.

They either need to give him a new passive entirely, or tweak the current one to be stronger, faster, or both.

Rebonack1 votes

It wouldn't be stronger.

If Koggy's W were physical damage you would be running Koggy with armor pen runes and Yomama's Ghostblade would basically be core on him, for 39 flat armor penetration.

(250 x 0.65 x 0.72 x 0.94) - 39 = 71 armor when all is said and done. As opposed to 106 magic resist after Koggy's Q shred and masteries.

They either need to give him a new passive entirely, or tweak the current one to be stronger, faster, or both.

Basically what this topic is calling for. His Innate could be changed to improve his melee dueling power when someone jumps him (improving his fallback play pattern) or to improve his poke somehow (improving his ideal play pattern). As mentioned several times already, I think improving his fallback would be easier to balance than improving his poke too much.

Rebonack1 votes

And Koggy got destroyed with nerfs while Trist got a few love taps before RIot finally got serious and punched her base IAS in the gut. It left quite a few people confused since few folks (if anyone, really) was complaining about Kog at the time. It was all focused on Trist. Koggy's sin was doing well in a Pro game, which is an instant death-sentence for anyone who isn't sufficiently flashy.

That's part of the reason why I made this topic in the first place. When Kog gets nailed with nerfs it is almost never because of his performance in solo queue. It's because of how well he does in super-organized play. That's part of the reason why I think buffing his fallback play pattern (which is more important in solo queue) would be far safer than buffing his ideal pattern (which is more important at the pro level).

One really simple change would be to alter the targeting style of his Ult to an artillery skillshot (think Vel'kaz' E). Make it so it takes a little longer to reach its max range, but significantly harder to dodge it at close and moderate range. That would probably require scaling the Ult's projectile speed as you level it up.

PatycTheLovable1 votes

why not just make it so that his e knocks him back? similar to a Caitlyn e?

Rebonack1 votes

Because giving Koggy displacement would homogenize him with the other Rangers?

Being immobile is part of Koggy's identity, just as important as his long range. Mobility should have a pretty major cost in terms of kit power, but it doesn't always work out that way. Balance is a lie, and all that Zed.

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