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Make shields...shields again. (Shield Duration is actually ridiculous)

DarkSoul1994··48 votes·16,026 views

I specifically remember the duration of Riven's Valor (E) was significantly shortened on the basis of Riot wanting her shield to be used more intuitively.

**Patch 4.1 ** We’re reducing the duration of Valor to hit some of Riven’s flexibility in lane – if she’s going to rely on Valor’s shield to trade damage, she’ll need to commit quickly or risk losing the shield.

Riven's shield duration from Valor is currently 1.5 seconds. Meanwhile: Janna Eye of the Storm (E) 5 Second Shield Duration, 5.5 Second CD at Rank 5 with 45% CDR Lulu Help, Pix! (E) 6 Second Shield Duration, 5.5 Second CD at Rank 5 with 45% CDR Morgana Black Shield (E) 5 Second Shield Duration, 8.25 Second CD at Rank 5 with 45% CDR

Keep in mind that these all have 650-900 Range so they can sit literally Caitlyn's Auto-Attack Range behind the rest of her team casting Shields from complete safety. Keep in mind that their Shield durations are as long or almost as long as their cooldowns. Keep in mind that they all have multiple forms of CC on top of this that would make most Tanks in the game envious (Janna can literally hit the enemy backline from her own backline with her Q that significantly outranges a fully channeled Xerath Q)

Please nerf the living shit out of shield duration please and thank you Riot.

It doesn't even make sense from a logical standpoint. People don't walk around a battlefield with their shields held over their faces. They deflect a blow and keep swinging. This is how shields should work in LoL.

EDIT: Karma Inspire (E) 4 Second Shield Duration, 4.4 Second CD at Rank 5 with 45% CDR

EDIT 2: The only reasonable Shield Duration in the game for a Shield that can be cast on an Ally is on Ivern Triggerseed (E) (2 Second shield duration) and even then, it's because the shield detonates to deal damage and slow nearby targets.

94 Comments

k wìx31 votes

I play offensive themed supports (really, one trick Zilean) and I think drastically cutting shield duration will straight up dumpster shield users in a huge way. You need something less binary and more dynamic.

The best solution is to make all shields 'decay' over time. This has a nice skill-gate built right into it, and makes it possible to play around shields in a much more meaningful way. (waiting out SOME of the shields block amount before bursting.)

This also has a secondary effect of negating 'shield stacking' which your method does not, as each shield could have its own 'decay' effect, so stacking multiple shields on a single target causes the decay speed to effectively 'double'.

THIRDLY, and where I think the idea really shines is that it adds a new lever to balance around. If shields are still too strong, up the rate of decay.

DarkSoul19946 votes

If Riot really cared about shield stacking, they would make them work like non-knockup CC where the most recent CC replaces the previous one and consequently negates the rest of its effect.

Onotori22 votes

Riven has loads of damage, mobility and CC in her kit on top of an AD scaling shield. Of course her shield is going to be weaker than a champ who does nothing but keep people alive, and can't really exist on their own.

DarkSoul199415 votes

No. A shield is a shield and shield stacking from Supports is one of the biggest problems in the game right now. Either shield duration needs to be nerfed, or things like shield size and cooldown need to start getting hefty nerfs.

Onotori10 votes

So... why weren't shields complained about for 7-8 years?

Hm. Weird.

DarkSoul199417 votes

Because we didn't have things like Windspeaker's Blessing/Ardent Censer/Aery substantially buffing them. Access to CDR and Gold-Effient Support items has also improved significantly over the last 7-8 years meaning that what used to be 8-10 second CD shields are now 5-6 second CD shields.

Automated Riven5 votes

shields on supports used to have zero ap behind them and zero shield amping abilities. So the max hp on a shield used to be around 250-300 hp even late game. Literally half to 35% of what they are now. Also support items were significantly less powerful and supports didnt have access to the income to afford more then 1-2 of them.

saltran2 votes

Also support items were significantly less powerful and supports didnt have access to the income to afford more then 1-2 of them.

Agree.

But are you sure that supp shields used to have 0 ap ratios? Maybe I'm wrong but I remember Janna's with item 3041 and item 3089

Automated Riven7 votes

I said ap behind them. They had really good ap ratios, better then they do now actually. The issue is that buying items like that is actually super troll. It costed way to much money and took way to long to get. Hyper late game maybe, but not in a standard game. Janna is the only one who would buy soulstealer with any regularity. And it was still a niche item she would buy when snowballing as per the low investment.

saltran3 votes

Oh, I missunderstood what you said then, thanks.

Sona Ping11 votes

{quoted}

No. A shield is a shield and shield stacking from Supports is one of the biggest problems in the game right now. Either shield duration needs to be nerfed, or things like shield size and cooldown need to start getting hefty nerfs.

Riven's Shield is Riven's Shield and Janna's Shield is Janna's Shield. They are on different champions that do different things with different abilities and each of their different abilities takes up different amounts of their power budget nor are they coordinated on the same person who is using it.

Otherwise anyone can make the same argument as you and say

"A stun is a stun so Riven's stun should be increased from 0.75s to 2.5s like Veigar"

And it would be equally as valid under the condition's of your argument. A thing is a thing, after all.

DarkSoul19947 votes

No, a Shield is a shield. It's instant and point-and-click. Meanwhile there are many ways that stuns can be applied in the game with varying levels of counterplay available.

There is no counterplay for shields in the game as it stands. Supports aren't even forced to use their Shields re-actively because their Cooldown more-or-less matches the Shield's Duration. It also means teams can't wait out the shield.

You cut down the shield duration to 1-2 seconds and suddenly Kog'maw is a Minigun instead of a Minigun attached to a fucking M1 Abrams.

Subject 51 votes

{quoted}

No, a Shield is a shield. It's instant and point-and-click. Meanwhile there are many ways that stuns can be applied in the game with varying levels of counterplay available.

There is no counterplay for shields in the game as it stands. Supports aren't even forced to use their Shields re-actively because their Cooldown more-or-less matches the Shield's Duration. It also means teams can't wait out the shield.

You cut down the shield duration to 1-2 seconds and suddenly Kog'maw is a Minigun instead of a Minigun attached to a fucking M1 Abrams.

Irelia There was a new mechanic put into the game that counters shields actually.

Though a shield is countered by extreme burst, and so the combination of a shield with CC is difficult for assassins.

Automated Riven4 votes

dealing a bit extra damage to shields on 1 champion is hardly a counter. Its makes the shield less effective, against her specifically, and only as long as she is alive. This isnt really a long term solution.

DarkSoul19942 votes

I really hope that mechanic only ever stays on Irelia though.

Irelia Bot2 votes

{quoted}

I really hope that mechanic only ever stays on Irelia though.

I get a feeling that it won't say exclusive to Irelia.

It could even end up on a new item or an item that has limited play.

Say Wit's end did triple on hit magic damage to shields.

Sona Ping6 votes

{quoted}

No, a Shield is a shield. It's instant and point-and-click. Meanwhile there are many ways that stuns can be applied in the game with varying levels of counterplay available.

There is no counterplay for shields in the game as it stands. Supports aren't even forced to use their Shields re-actively because their Cooldown more-or-less matches the Shield's Duration. It also means teams can't wait out the shield.

You cut down the shield duration to 1-2 seconds and suddenly Kog'maw is a Minigun instead of a Minigun attached to a fucking M1 Abrams.

We've all heard this a hundred times before "The same thing is not the same thing because of X arbitrary thing I picked when I got called on it", it has not gotten anymore convincing with repetition. And of course, there's counterplay. But that's not going get addressed... Because while you are perfectly fine acknowledging the differences between them and everything else when it works for you, when it comes around to what you're talking about suddenly it's different now.

DarkSoul19943 votes

A shield is a shield in the sense that there is one type of shield in the game (3 if you include Magic/Physical Damage shields) and it is either instantly self-cast, or instantly cast on an ally - either way it is cast instantly with zero counterplay available without the shield having a 1-2 second duration.

By contrast, CC is an incredibly arbitrary example. There are probably a dozen different forms of CC, and as many ways to apply them as there are champions with CC. You cannot make an apples to apples comparison between any of them.

ULTRAF0RCE2 votes

Shields though aren't always instant point and click's specifically my favourite champion Lux's shield is a boomerang straight line skill shot.

Banbutsu Sozo2 votes

{quoted}

No, a Shield is a shield. It's instant and point-and-click. Meanwhile there are many ways that stuns can be applied in the game with varying levels of counterplay available.

There is no counterplay for shields in the game as it stands. Supports aren't even forced to use their Shields re-actively because their Cooldown more-or-less matches the Shield's Duration. It also means teams can't wait out the shield.

You cut down the shield duration to 1-2 seconds and suddenly Kog'maw is a Minigun instead of a Minigun attached to a fucking M1 Abrams.

Ryze (root), Malzahar ult (suppression), TwistedFate (gold card - stun), Lulu (polymorph.)

All these champs say hi.

Arakadia3 votes

A shield is a shield so we can compare fucking Riven and Janna? Thats not a fair argument.

OatheSworn2 votes

{quoted}

Riven has loads of damage, mobility and CC in her kit on top of an AD scaling shield. Of course her shield is going to be weaker than a champ who does nothing but keep people alive, and can't really exist on their own.

Then what about Diana.. she has loads of damage, mobility, and has a CC ability and still that shield lasts a lifetime.

TehNACHO8 votes

I realize this topic is specifically about Enchanter shields, but just in case the obvious needs stating, other champions use shields in different ways. Nautilus' and Sion's shields are giant "HEY HIT ME" signs for example, and their longer duration makes sense in terms of punishing people that ignore them.

I agree with nerfing Enchanter shields by personal principle; I too remember that Riven change since forever ago (happened shortly after I started playing so basically it's one of my first impressions of balance in League). However, I just want to make sure that if we nerf these shields in any which way, we do so meaningfully for the purposes of their design.

Morgana's Black Shield for example I feel is mostly balanced. Doesn't block physical damage, and it's pitifully weak without a lot of commitment so if she puts it up early, it doesn't matter that it lasts long you're just going to blast through it anyway. Still does its job of blocking CC abilities when it does, and has ample weaknesses surrounding it. Morgana gets a pass, imo.

Athenes Lulu5 votes

That looks more like a case of being outdated. Back when games and teamfights last longer than 10 seconds, the shield durations were pretty fair. "Shield timing" used to be a thing, and that was one of their only skill expressions that they had.

Now that damage and shield power is up the roof, 5-6 second shields look like they take forever.

Like what others have said, shield decay does look like a neat form of skill expression.

Daedric Etwahl4 votes

I think they need to look at the specific champions that are problematic with their shields, especially as far as Enchanters go.

I really, really hope that Riot doesn't give some heavy handed nerf across the board to shielding, as honestly there are numerous supports that are not problematic in that regard Sona Rakan Taric and none of them deserve to have their shielding gutted because of a few problem cases.

DarkSoul19942 votes

These changes would be directed more specifically toward Enchanters rather than Wardens. As for Sona, I feel like she's pretty high on the VGU list so any changes to Enchanter Shielding would probably be inconsequential.

Daedric Etwahl2 votes

Sona's not a priority for Riot at all, what with the likes of Akali Aatrox DrMundo Kayle Mordekaiser Nunu Pantheon Skarner Udyr MonkeyKing and more, all of whom desperately need work more than Sona does. Plus Riot has a history of rarely, if ever, actually buffing Sona, so any collateral changes will likely be felt for a long time.

Either way, Sona is the least deserving of nerfs of the whole Enchanter class, and I really hope Riot doesn't take the lazy way and nerf the entire class and just be done with it, because that's just going to hurt Sona where she doesn't deserve it.

Shablagoo3 votes

They just need to add a mortal reminder for shields, I dont get why they haven't

sho ayane8 votes

Because it wouldn't be fair on champions that have their own shields, like, Poppy, Riven or Diana to name a few. If such an item was added we would enter a Soraka healing meta. Then you would probably post on the boards again asking for a buff to gw to counter the ridiculous healing of supports after shielding supports are no longer played.

If only adding one item would fix it all, but it wouldn't.

Shablagoo1 votes

Then they could make it so they reduce shield increases like ardent or redemption. This would affect only supports because they are the only one who buy those items. I think that really is the main problem the fact that item 3504 item 3107 item 3222 , all combined can increase the shielding by 40%, if they can target that it would help. Also they could make it so shields not stack anymore one replaces the other rather the stacking them.

Another thing is mortal reminder also affects Vladimir, Fiora, Mundo, and anyone who builds life steal. Why are these special cases? I dont see any problem with it. Just as mortal affects vlad it affects soraka. They didnt seem to care when they added the mechanic to Irelia . Also healing isnt as big a problem as healing supports, mortal reminder and morrello are enough to deal with it, you also focus soraka most of the time anyway.

Metal Janna2 votes

{quoted}

Then they could make it so they reduce shield increases like ardent or redemption. This would affect only supports because they are the only one who buy those items. I think that really is the main problem the fact that item 3504 item 3107 item 3222 , all combined can increase the shielding by 40%, if they can target that it would help. Also they could make it so shields not stack anymore one replaces the other rather the stacking them.

You have to feed the support hard for them to be able to afford item 3504 item 3107 item 3222 before laning phase is long over. What's the use in complaining that fed champions are too powerful?

Shablagoo1 votes

item 3504 item 3107 item 3222 These are three of the cheapest items in the game, and what makes you think its all during the laning phase. Also I will be realistic not many people get item 3222, probably because of how long the cd is. But ardent or redemption is easy to obtain during the laning phase with support items giving them free gold. Also you attack one point while ignoring the entire argument I put doesnt really help your case, no one is talking about feed champions. It is not difficult for supports to get this considering how well Janna and lulu are actually able to even set up kills as well, especially lulu. Point click polymorph, and Jannas point click slow. It really isnt difficult. A support can have both items by 15 mins they wouldnt get them unless you completely shut the bot lane down. Again why not just add a shield counter that actually allows counterplay to these champions like Soraka why are they special?

Also looking at your match stats shows my point you literally always have a ardent by 10mins, ardent alone increases shield power which has no counter by 10% which is added on top of the ap scaling it has. How can you sit here and pretend like shields being able to stack and have no counter play is ok?

Metal Janna1 votes

{quoted}

item 3504 item 3107 item 3222 These are three of the cheapest items in the game, and what makes you think its all during the laning phase. Also I will be realistic not many people get item 3222, probably because of how long the cd is. But ardent or redemption is easy to obtain during the laning phase with support items giving them free gold. Also you attack one point while ignoring the entire argument I put doesnt really help your case, no one is talking about feed champions. It is not difficult for supports to get this considering how well Janna and lulu are actually able to even set up kills as well, especially lulu. Point click polymorph, and Jannas point click slow. It really isnt difficult. A support can have both items by 15 mins they wouldnt get them unless you completely shut the bot lane down. Again why not just add a shield counter that actually allows counterplay to these champions like Soraka why are they special?

Also looking at your match stats shows my point you literally always have a ardent by 10mins, ardent alone increases shield power which has no counter by 10% which is added on top of the ap scaling it has. How can you sit here and pretend like shields being able to stack and have no counter play is ok?

I said during laning phase because the purpose of maximizing CDR is to stop every single poke during laning phase. Not to win all-ins, not to survive more than a second during a teamfight.

In what game did I ever have Ardent by 10 minutes? Because I can guarantee you that if I ever had Ardent by 10 minutes then it was a stompfest. That does not happen in matches where we go even or even fall behind. Assuming a Spellthief's, Control ward, Health pot start (standard for me), rushing item 3092, item 3504, and item 3107 for +30% CDR, would cost a total of 6,325 gold. Frostfang, Ionian boots, and Grail (cheapest possible 45% CDR build) would cost 3,975. Frostfang + Ardent alone would cost 3,275.

I don't get 3,275 gold until 12-15 minutes in, and that's victorious matches only. Obviously if i'm getting beaten in lane it'll take even longer. So no, I don't literally have Ardent by 10 minutes, literally ever. Even if I rush it.

I typically make 3,975 gold by 13-20 minutes, also victorious matches only. I don't make 6,325 gold until 19-25 minutes in, still victorious matches only. According to League of Graphs, the average silver ranked game is 27:30, and it only goes down from there with increasing ELO. So during an average length game, I could achieve 45% CDR for 7-14 minutes of the late game, if I really rushed CDR. And then I would be short on AP and tankiness.

If we're talking about a support with both Ardent and Redemption by 15 minutes, we are talking about a fed support.

Yes a Janna or Lulu can shield often, and yes, Janna's shield is too long. But playing from all the way in the back is not effective Janna-ing or Lulu-ing. With Janna, she can only effectively use half her kit from the back. Her Q and W are useless from back there. Laning against a passive Janna is like laning against 1.5 champions instead of 2. Easy. With Lulu on the other hand, she could theoretically drop her entire kit (minus autos) on you from maximum range behind her ADC. If any champion's ability to support from complete safety is too strong, it's Lulu. But that's assuming a Lulu one-trick. Not an average Lulu.

Shields are very counterplay-able. You can bait them out, you can overpower them, you can run out the support's mana so she can't cast them. If the enemy support's shield is lasting too long for you to pop the enemy adc before they pop you, then you either need more tankiness, more firepower, smarter tactics, or a better support.

Janna and Lulu are the two most shielding oriented supports in the game. Of course their shields are stupid strong. Try looking at BraumLuxTaricRakanShenMorgana and Orianna's shields, and tell me again that shields in general are so strong that we need a new counterplay item to beat them.

Shablagoo2 votes

You can look at your own match history to find it, one of the games you lost you have a ardent by 10:29, meaning it is possible to get by the 10 mins. And I am talking shields in general are a problem, the laning phase is not the only phase in which shields are useful no? The laning phase isnt the only time you shield ppl no?

So then there is no real counter-play for shields, baiting out depends on the persons incompetence and even if you do you have to lose a significant part of your kit to bait out a shield, again depends on incompetence of the support which isnt real counterplay. That is like saying Garens ult has counter-play all you have to do is pray he uses it to early. By the time you eventually over power it you are most likely dead, most kits are not strong enough to shred through a shield fully even with the burst.

Braums shield does not count as it doesnt add an extra health bar to them. Also I dont counter morg as a problem as it only block magic dmg, I am talking about shields which block all sources of dmg, if you have a ori and a Janna on there team and they both for some reason have ardent, and they decide to defend one champion, adc probably, nothing is getting through with just their kit.

Also the only tactic as of then would be to kill the support first which is what I am finding in most cases, but that isnt even real counterplay, at least with soraka the fact that you can specifically counter her with an item makes sense, she also cant heal herself, Janna and lulu can so focusing them does not prove as a solution.

I want real counter-play, the same counter-play that Kat has with having telegraphed daggers, or Dodging one of Talons abilities to not receive the bleed, Using Zhonyas for Zeds ult or dodging his shurikins to avoid most of his dmg. Being with your team so you dont receive Isolation dmg from KHa's Q. Or having a warning sign over your head when rengar ults, or the fact that he is camo when he gets close. Real counter-play the one that adc's demanded for from assassins. All this is counter-play why is it that utility is some how exempt from this idea? Because it doesnt cause people to have perma grey screens, It doesnt prove that it is not over-tuned.

Metal Janna2 votes

{quoted}

You can look at your own match history to find it, one of the games you lost you have a ardent by 10:29, meaning it is possible to get by the 10 mins. And I am talking shields in general are a problem, the laning phase is not the only phase in which shields are useful no? The laning phase isnt the only time you shield ppl no?

https://imgur.com/a/rGV5zbJ That was a lie. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Shablagoo1 votes

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2771393663/40011228?tab=builds ??? what is this?

Metal Janna1 votes

{quoted}

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2771393663/40011228?tab=builds ??? what is this?

Okay fine. You're right that I got Ardent by 10 minutes. Once. I had First Blood, 3 more kills, and 3 assists by then. I was even keeping up with their KleptoPlank top at that point... so I was fed. Obviously this isn't the sort of thing that happens regularly. The support should not get kills, much less 4 of them before 10 minutes. It couldn't have happened at all if I were playing a passive support and standing behind my ADC.

My point still stands that Ardent and Redemption by 15 minutes is not normally possible. But that's not my main point.

You want to know why i'm focused on the laning phase? Because shields are practically useless in a teamfight. A Janna with level 16, Ardent, Remnant of the Ascended, Ionion Boots, and Mikael's gets +30% HSP, 45% CDR and... 100 AP. Including the extra AP she gets from exceeding the CDR cap. With those stats, her shield is worth 364 damage. That's like one auto in the lategame. Theoretically Janna and Lulu can achieve nearly constant shields. But in practice, by the time they can do it, the shield will be useless.

My main point is that rushing CDR for the 100% uptime shields is possible, but not viable, so people should stop trying to use it to prove that shields can't be outplayed by whatever class the complainer mains. Shields can always be counterplayed unless the shielder is ridiculously fed.

Shablagoo1 votes

Shields are the reason Janna is as op as she is. You think have a shield negating 300 dmg of someones full combo is going to be useless when it takes about 1-2 seconds to kill someone?

I never even stated anything about shields having 100% up time. What I want is actually counter-play the same thing Soraka has with grevious wounds, a typical build for Janna would be redemption, ardent, and locket. I dont understand why not having 100% up time on shields proves it has counterplay. The ability to negate dmg from a kit with the press of a button should have proper counterplay, heals are the exact same thing yet we have grevious why are shields exempt?

Metal Janna1 votes

{quoted}

Shields are the reason Janna is as op as she is. You think have a shield negating 300 dmg of someones full combo is going to be useless when it takes about 1-2 seconds to kill someone?

I never even stated anything about shields having 100% up time. What I want is actually counter-play the same thing Soraka has with grevious wounds, a typical build for Janna would be redemption, ardent, and locket. I dont understand why not having 100% up time on shields proves it has counterplay. The ability to negate dmg from a kit with the press of a button should have proper counterplay, heals are the exact same thing yet we have grevious why are shields exempt?

Not having 100% uptime means the shield can be outplayed during the window it is not available. Exploiting cooldowns is counterplay. Overwhelming the shield is also counterplay. CC'ing the support so she has to shield herself and won't have it for her ally is counterplay. So is running out the support's mana. Shields have counterplay.

Shablagoo1 votes

Yes an when rengar was able to one shot ppl with his ult all you had to do was outplay him during the window it isnt available. Yet rengar was still able to oneshot with his ult when it was up. Thats dancing around the real problem, why not work to fix the real problem and give real counter-play. They did now shields need this reduce the shield increase or give an item that works like mortal reminder

Overwheming doesnt work because you end up blowing you cd's on one person and you end up getting blown up by the rest of the team

CC the support so then how about the adc?

Mana? really Im not even going to talk about this.

No it doesn't, just make an item that actually works on it, why is Ireila the only one who has it?

Metal Janna1 votes

{quoted}

Yes an when rengar was able to one shot ppl with his ult all you had to do was outplay him during the window it isnt available. Yet rengar was still able to oneshot with his ult when it was up. Thats dancing around the real problem, why not work to fix the real problem and give real counter-play. They did now shields need this reduce the shield increase or give an item that works like mortal reminder

Overwheming doesnt work because you end up blowing you cd's on one person and you end up getting blown up by the rest of the team

CC the support so then how about the adc?

Mana? really Im not even going to talk about this.

No it doesn't, just make an item that actually works on it, why is Ireila the only one who has it?

https://image.ibb.co/hTKa8c/19789999.jpg Perhaps some definitions would be useful: Tactical counterplay: Actions which you can take during combat to nullify or mitigate the strength of a champion, ability, or strategy. Strategic counterplay: Actions which you can take outside of combat to nullify or mitigate the strength of a champion, ability, or strategy.

For example: Blitzcrank. You see the enemy support lock in Blitzcrank. What do you do? You pick tanky. That's strategic counterplay. But it's also the worst kind of strategic outplay: the kind that relies on pick order RNG. Blitzcrank is one of the most irritating supports to play against, and that's because counterpicking used to be his only counterplay: if you didn't pick tanky, all you could do in game is dodge hooks and wait for the inevitable. But then Riot nerfed the healing power, then the gold generation on Relic Shield. Now you can poke down his carry over time (tactical counterplay), and you can patiently wait, playing safe until the late game where his power drops off due to low gold income (strategic counterplay). Where before with Blitzcrank your only viable form of counterplay was strategic and relied on getting to pick after him (RNG), now he has multiple forms of counterplay, two of which do not rely on being lucky. That is a step in the right direction and good work from the balance team.

Your definition of counterplay seems to focus exclusively on strategic counterplay, like counter-picks and itemization, and completely ignore tactical counterplay like dodging their skillshots, exploiting cooldowns and resources. You're claiming that shields in general are so strong that you need Riot to create a new form of strategic counterplay, an item or ability, which you can use to hard counter them. I'm claiming that they're not really that strong and you can beat them with existing counterplay, both strategic and tactical. I've already given you several different forms of tactical counterplay, so i'll not bother to re-iterate them here.

Shablagoo1 votes

You didnt need to explain this then because it just proves my point even more, tactical counterplay isnt enough. Just like Tactical counter-play isnt enough for zed, tactical counter-play isnt enough for shields we need a strategic counter the counterplay you give isnt enough. Thats why Janna is constantly frustrating to play against in every elo.

Man I could go on and on about this but all it is right now, is you saying there is counter-play and thats enough and me saying there isnt enough so regardless of what I say I dont think any logic will get to you.

sho ayane1 votes

If we just lowered the bonus to healing and shieding by 5% on each item wouldn't that be fine? If you got fed you would still have an exp advantage therefore making your shield stronger. This would have no affect on champions in other roles who have self cast shields while weakening shields from enchanters by a little bit.

However this might not even solve the problem, we may just end up with engage supports bot lane with no one using enchanters although it isn't likely as locket is useless right now.

The reduction of the heal and shield power would prevent us from falling into a soraka healing meta after shielding supports fall out of meta.

Or bot lane becomes a graveyard that no one wants to play because perhaps the new marksmen changes would make the role not as able to carry as other roles.

Not entirely sure what would happen but I can speculate. And addition speculation would be helpful :)

Shablagoo1 votes

I actually think reducing the shielding power is a good idea. I also think its good to have engage supports comeback, they should, I am not sure but I am pretty sure thresh should counter them. I also dont think it would make shield supports useless, considering the fact that mortal reminder exist yet soraka is still a top tier support. I shields will always be useful and regardless lulu and jann still have kits that function very well with out the shields.

devdev4633 votes

I think it's more important that shielding/protecting an ally not be brain dead easy to pull off. It's got to require more than hovering your mouse over your ally and clicking the buttons. We need supports who actually have interesting gameplay based around protecting people. An example of someone I think does this very well is braum, as he has a bunch of skill shots to aim. Or look at threshs shield, it has a purpose that isn't something stupid like an ad steroid. It actually has gameplay attached to it.

If riot wants shielding to be strong points of these champions kits then they need some actual gameplay attached to them.

Arakadia3 votes

Keep in mind that these all have 650-900 Range so they can sit literally Caitlyn's Auto-Attack Range behind the rest of her team casting Shields from complete safety. Keep in mind that their Shield durations are as long or almost as long as their cooldowns. Keep in mind that they all have multiple forms of CC on top of this that would make most Tanks in the game envious (Janna can literally hit the enemy backline from her own backline with her Q that significantly outranges a fully channeled Xerath Q)

If they are sitting 900 range behind their team, they aren't going to be able to utalize their peel or kit at all. Janna will give enemies tons of time to dodge her torando, to just advance without a support trying to peel them off, etc. Morgana won't be able to use W for most of the fight, she gives the enemy even more time to dodge her Q, and she won't be able to use her ult at all.

This is a silly argument in a valid post.

Elemental Lux2 votes

You also omitted the fact Riven is almost permashielded with 45% CDR, and she is not a support, nor tank. Her shield is also mobility and can cancel her animations.

Wînter Fox1 votes

With 45% CDR (which no Riven even gets) her rank 5 E drops from 6 seconds to 3.3 seconds. With a 1.5 second duration that's 45% of the time. "Permashielded" huh?

Elemental Lux2 votes

Yeah 1.8seconds between each cast she is vulnerable. You're the one saying 1.5 isnt long at all.

Bigsi2 votes

Thats ridiculous, you're comparing a bruiser top laner to supports which are 2 seperate fields. Janna and lulu's kits are almost entirely based around their shielding because its obviously what they do to save the ADC, its their role.

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