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@Ghostcrawler-Would you be willing to consider switching the locations of Blue Buff and Wolves?

mi ramfan·Sep 4, 2014·12 votes·15,525 views

http://imgur.com/Qtu47m2

Yesterday, I made a fairly big thread about the jungle and changes I thought might be good for it. I was surprised by how much support I got for the idea of switching the position of the Blue Buff and Wolf camps, considering that it was the suggestion I was actually least confident in.

Here's what I think switching the position of Blue Buff and Wolves would do, off the top of my head:

Make the benefit of counterjungling more proportional to its risk for both the Wolf and Ancient Golem camps. Right now, the Ancient Golem's position is such that it's incredibly safe to invade both at the first spawn and at subsequent spawns, and it's extremely vulnerable to being pulled over the wall out of reach of the jungler. With the camp position switched, invaders would have to go substantially deeper into enemy territory to reach Blue, putting themselves at greater risk.
Provide a buff to blue-dependent junglers like Amumu and Maokai by making their key buff much easier to protect.
Force leashing to have a greater opportunity cost, especially for the side lane who could lose out on half a wave or more giving a hard leash. YMMV on whether this is a good thing or not.
Make it easier for junglers to get from farming Wolves to countergank bot lane.

Would you be willing to give this idea a try on PBE or in Preseason 5?

33 Comments

ZhuganSep 4, 20148 votes

Blue is too powerful, especially early, to make it so hard to contest. It also creates another objective worth contesting when things like towers/dragon/baron aren't on the table, which promotes actual conflict.

Leave it where it is.

mi ramfanSep 4, 20144 votes

You want an easy blue? Take the one on your side.

By making blue harder to deny, you make fights over blue that much more high stakes and risky. Right now, the only difficulty with stealing blue is making sure you outsmite or outduel the other jungler; getting away with it is really easy if you have an escape or Flash because you get both the option to jump towards mid or run to river and jump the drag/baron wall. With my change, you've got quite a ways further to go in order to return to safe territory, so your methods of ensuring safe egress after encountering the enemy jungle are limited to bringing your team with you (resulting in a teamfight) or frantically sprinting to get out while the enemy team closes in on you from all sides, both of which are far more exciting and engaging then smiting over the wall and walking away.

ZhuganSep 4, 201413 votes

By making the fights riskier, you remove the incentive to fight over it. Ease of defense, by its very nature, makes conflict over an objective worth less. Its the very reason that blue is often invaded in even games and red isn't usually.

Also, while doing something as simple as "smiting over the wall" with blue is do-able, it isn't how those fights usually go down. They are usually based a whole lot more in small skirmishes as the defending team attempts to zone out the aggressing team while also securing the buff. That usually leads to relatively even fights in basic principle because the aggressing team has the ability to withdraw fairly easily to river and the defending team has the ability to withdraw to the safety of their tower line.

That sort of even basis is a stronger way for a teamfight to start because teams don't want to enter into a fight when they are at an inherent disadvantage. The jungle shouldn't be made easier. If anything, it should be made more difficult.

RiotMorelloSep 5, 201417 votes

Exactly this. With the update Summoner's Rift project, we did take a look at camp locations and asked some questions about their location (something we haven't touched since the early beta days).

This exact reasoning is why we like Blue's current location. Making higher-value objectives contested more easily supports more possibility of riskier plays and interaction. Requiring someone to "go deep" to contest removes the incentive to do so. Wolves is the safest camp, and has some of the lowest reward. That's on purpose!

ZhuganSep 5, 20142 votes

First time a Rioter has ever directly replied to me (not irl). It is nice for that first response to start with "Exactly this."

Totally irrelevant to the discussion, but a happy moment for me.

RiotPhreakSep 5, 20145 votes

Exactly this. Getting responses from Rioters is awesome!

Garlyle WildsSep 5, 20143 votes

isn't that basically your entire life?

~~yes I'm jealous~~

TortferngatrSep 5, 20141 votes

What about reversing Red/Blue buffs' positions, then? (Red provides a more potent ganking buff, blue provides an effect that is needed for some junglers to have a safe clear.)

WullfSep 5, 20141 votes

Now I can see that agreeing with this change is only saying that I know nothing about jungle and the game. And that is a terrible discovery.

mi ramfanSep 5, 20141 votes

Your agreement or disagreement with this suggestion has no bearing whatsoever on your skill at the game.

I've talked to some bronze players who don't like it and some diamonds who do, and vice versa. It's a subjective, opinion based thing, so nobody has to be right or wrong.

WullfSep 5, 20141 votes

You are ofcourse right.

What I was implying is that I did not see the reason behind it. I was not talking about skill though - because I am the best.

mi ramfanSep 5, 20141 votes

Over the course of a game, a Lee Sin is going to get much more of his gold and experience from Wraiths and Wolves then from Red and Blue. After first clear, Lee Sin will brush off the lost buff from Blue and just go camp top lane some more. Making Wraiths and Wolves easier to take not only improves the ability to hit a camping jungler in his gold pouch, it also supports more frequent skirmishes and encounters.

If there's only one camp that you can steal from a jungler without going as deep as their second tower, there is no reason for junglers to not camp a single lane until they force a kill through. His farm will all still be there even if he sits there, so why bother actually going to clear camps? Eventually that bot lane Kog'Maw will take one step too far forward and give up a kill.

Let's be honest: with 90% of junglers, counterganking a Lee Sin is not really practical. Junglers who do not have the early dueling potential of a Lee Sin need a way to punish a Lee Sin for camping, and giving them a second small camp that they can deny Lee Sin in between buff spawns will do wonders for junglers who do not have a Q that hits for a total of 340 damage plus 180% of their bonus AD.

MandaariSep 5, 20142 votes

Don't you feel like that's somewhat unfair to blue dependent junglers though? Why should red not be as open to conflict as blue?

Old Man TeetoSep 8, 20141 votes

Blue buff, unlike red buff, is hotly contested because while your team wields it you (pretty much) remove the resources costs on one of your champions.

If anything, I feel red buff needs a bigger reason to contest it since the buff it provides is only strong based on the situation (kiting or sticking to a target) which arises less now than in previous seasons.

Red Buff

On hit move speed slow
On hit true damage and burn

I feel something should be done to make it at least equal in value to blue buff for contention around mid and late game. Right now, Red Buff mid/late is a nicety while blue buff is often times a necessity.

RiotGhostcrawlerSep 5, 20146 votes

We haven't discussed that particular solution, but we totally agree with the basic sentiment of the problem you're trying to fix. We do think the jungle has become a bit stale, that junglers are basically completing set routes without making many decisions until it comes time for the gank. We do think counterjungling is a cool strategy so long as it comes with appropriate risks and rewards.

You'll see some experiments we want to try out for next season on the PBE in a month or two. We'll talk more about the specific ideas we're trying and why when things get a little closer.

WullfSep 4, 20143 votes

I can imagine switching might be quite diffcult. Considering that Riot is working on new SR.

Jungle would have to be reworked for blue to have aproppriate accomodation.

On the other note in your previous post you did not like how easy jungle is now. But this change would make it even more easier for junglers.

mi ramfanSep 4, 20142 votes

I'd argue that the best time to do something like this is while the new map skin is in development. Once the new map is officially released it'll be a lot harder to make changes like this.

Also, this change has the biggest effect on blue-dependent junglers, who would really appreciate having a safer second and maybe third blue. The difficulty of stealing the first blue is pretty much unchanged; just pick the mid laner and everyone will back off like usual.

Right now, none of the top junglers needs blue to function. By improving the safety of second and third blue, you're giving Amumu, Fiddlesticks, Elise, and Maokai a lot of help without nerfing or changing the play styles of the big three. You're also indirectly assisting blue-reliant mid owners like Anivia, Karthus, and Lux.

A lot of people are passing over the second big piece of this change: the new Wolf location. Putting the Wolves at Ancient Golem's current location makes them much safer to steal then they are currently. Due to the Wolves' low respawn time, a lot more gold and experience can be denied by repeatedly stealing the big wolf then by stealing one blue. This helps counterjunglers like Shyvana and Udyr, because now they have two small camps they can (somewhat) safely steal instead of just one.

WullfSep 5, 20141 votes

Got a point.

SilverclawSep 4, 20142 votes

I don't like this idea - I think that the blue buff is very important - not allowing easy access to it from both sides along with an easy leash changes the game in a huge way.

HotarukinSep 4, 20142 votes

The only reason I say no is because of the tactical value of the camp's positioning. I can ward enemy blue, get to see when blue appears and get to see when a jungler is moving through a not-insignificant point in their jungle. If I had to run all the way to wolves to ward that, the chances of being caught out before I have the option of making a play just makes blue -too- safe. Likewise, for warding, to guard your own blue, you simply ward dragon or baron, and the enemy jungler has to invade just as far to avoid being sighted by your river ward as they head in to invade, leaving it still a risky proposition to steal it, if your team is properly warding.

I -do- like that mid lane would likely have to miss CS if they wanted to get blue buff, but the pure -safety- of it makes it not-ideal. There should be counterplay involved when it comes to passing off blue buff without making a suicidal play that leaves you two-turrets deep in enemy territory. :) Just my thoughts.

MrBuffingtonSep 4, 20142 votes

I don't think simply swapping the positions is a good idea; Jungle clears become very strange; there are two basic camps right next to each other (wolves and wight). There isn't much reason to go to that part of the jungle unless you're just farming; if you're like Lee Sin or some other less farm heavy jungler, you're probably going to spend a huge portion of your time just clearing buffs and wraiths, ganking the side that's closest to those objectives. Blue side jungler won't visit top lane as often, Purple side won't visit bot lane as often. Also, farming junglers will get a huge advantage going to their blue buff side; they get two camps right next to each other, they don't have to walk around any walls to go between them.

Honestly, Red buff isn't too much safer; most junglers have some sort of gap closer they can use to jump the wall anyways. Not to mention there are two bushes to hide in if you're invading and trying to steal their red buff; blue side only has one bush, and you usually pass through it on the way to clear your camp anyways.

HotarukinSep 4, 20142 votes

I hadn't even thought about the dissonance of just having an area you -never- go to in your jungle. It really does remove the desire to go anywhere near dragon or baron... or anything beyond that as a Jungler. As a result, it actively makes invading -less- appealing, because everything a jungler cares about is in one corner of the map, making it so that wards are all-powerful in defending the objectives they -do- care about... not to mention having to walk from blue, past wolves and wight just to get to the other things.

Very nice catch!

Lore MasterSep 7, 20142 votes

What if the jungles provided an EXP/Gold bonus based on distance from your nexus. This could provide incentive to counter jungle and create meaningful choices early.

You could have this bonus be inversely related to the level of the mob so as the game scales the bonus diminishes to reduce the anti-comeback mechanic it would cause if a team was winning AND getting a gold/XP advantage for clear their opponents jungle as they starved out the opposition.

Willahelm FulberSep 4, 20141 votes

Switching bluebuff and wolves would make a greater opportunity cost for laners, but here's the thing - would be there be a subsequent change for the Lizard Elder as well? Because something like this -might- make blue reliant junglers come back a little bit, but at the same time teams with red-reliant junglers will always be better off because the lane(s) that have to leash have a shorter walk back to lane, which means they get the cs/xp advantage.

Hidden SanitySep 5, 20141 votes

There isn't really any 'red-reliant' junglers who need it to clear, it's true a few low-impact 'junglers' kinda need it to gank, but not to clear. Meanwhile there are junglers who's clear is SEVERELY hampered without blue.

Willahelm FulberSep 6, 20141 votes

I'm sorry, I didn't mean red-reliant as much as I meant blue-unnecessary: champions who normally start red.

Iron SpatulaSep 4, 20141 votes

The current ancient golem is a very safe jungling location... Here's why: The mid side of the river should just about always be warded, especially with the introduction of trinkets, and from the camp you can see the other main opening (the river going towards dragon). With this, you have sight of approaching enemies and could determine clever and effective traps/couterplays from there. This adds to the importance of vision and teamwork.

If you're worrying about it being too easily denied...then turn to lizard elder.. Just yesterday I killed a Rengar jungle (I was Amumu) because he didn't have the bush next to Lizard Elder warded. There are three paths to get into top jungle, three bushes to hide in near red, one of which gives sight over the buff. Jungling isn't meant to be easy, it's meant to be a rewarding challenge.

Currently, blue is easily defendable as is and provides moments for league players to work together.

MaxogSep 4, 20141 votes

Season 2 jungling was stupid, I disagree with you in every way OP. Did you ever experience season 1 jungling? Now THAT'S what I call podracing. An invasion on any camp would set a jungler behind a few levels and ultimately actually change the game. God forbid if they took a buff, then you were really screwed. Season 4 you can just farm for days and never leave and keep up in levels after an invade; there's almost no reason to try to invade either unless you have a superb level 1 and can guarantee kills.{{summoner:2}}

NA DarklarikSep 5, 20141 votes

Horrible idea.

Deep Terror NamiSep 5, 20141 votes

I don't know if this would be beneficial or detrimental to certain champions (Udyr the counter-jungle a-hole), but it's true that having the same thing every game gets stale; I enjoy almost any change, even if it's a nerf, simply because it's different, so I'd like to try this.

Baked Fizz MainSep 6, 20141 votes

so in the new map, Nidalee her spears and traps did/or still trigger her passive on on the big jungle mobs. is this going to be new thing or are u guys gonna remove that? cause i for 1 would love to see nid jungle work better than now ^^

SlashFFeedersSep 7, 20141 votes

This is a huge nerf to blue reliant junglers. No one will leash blue buffs. I'm not losing my lane because you want to play Amumu. All junglers who can't solo buffs will start red; thus, this is a buff to red starting junglers.

This is also a huge nerf to purple side. If you can start red buff and you are blue side, you get a 2-3 man leash, and your bot lane gets to lane faster than purple side. You get the better leash and more XP.

If the red start jungler is on purple side, he or she still gets a 2 man leash at his or her red. and bot lane doesn't have to leash. It is a win-win for blue side and red buff junglers. Switch red and blue buffs or don't siwtch them at all.

The suggested change will severely limit blue reliant junglers.

Udyr LeeSin Elise Nocturne XinZhao Shyvana Zac Warwick =can solo or start red easily aka buffed

Amumu Fiddlesticks Khazix Maokai Skarner Nunu Evelynn Hecarim Sejuani MonkeyKing Pantheon Nautilus Chogath =Will never get leashes and can't solo easily aka MEGA NERF!

SlashFFeedersSep 7, 20141 votes

By all means change it, so I always have something to Q to after fights with LeeSin . Now LeeSin has a camp that respawns more often, much closer to the river, making escapes much easier.

Please change it, because I do like to spam the jungle king from time-to-time. Let me just ward hop over dragon/Baron wall and Q my wolves. #lata

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