Zed is still a huge problem for immobile mages...

Omega T33mo·May 25, 2016·31 votes·3,064 views

He rushes maw and you do no damage, you cant exactly rush zhonyas msot the time because then you run oom too quick. Hes very hard to gank and 100-0's you easy...

130 Comments

AlbatrossproMay 25, 20165 votes

I think the issue is that he isn't punished in teamfights. His shadow mechanic makes him deadly to zone and snipe any of usually 2-3 targets on the enemy team even with teamfight in process. Not true of other assassins really.

AstôlfoMay 25, 20161 votes

Yeah except multi-target means reduced damage. And there's usually 2-3 squishies on a team. Doesn't mean he'll chunk them all in one teamfight. He would pick only one of them.

KillerKellMay 25, 20164 votes

How much Mana do you run out of when you are Dead?

Oh, all of it? Got ya.

So tell me again why you can't rush Zhonya's...

Omega T33moMay 25, 201613 votes

Zhonyas wont even help too much when his thunderlords shadow combo takes half your health tbh

KillerKellMay 25, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Omega T33mo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ElArbPzZ,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-05-25T01:38:39.508+0000)

Zhonyas wont even help too much when his thunderlords shadow combo takes half your health tbh

Most Mages I know take care of Zed this way.

Stay under Turret. Let Zed Dive. CC his ass under Turret. Which means when you see a Zed, you pick a Mage with some reliable CC. Barrier also helps. Of course Exhaust can basically screw up his Ultimate, so also a good choice.

You have to make sacrifices, that's all there is to it. You can't play against Zed with the same build you use against Xerath.

Omega T33moMay 25, 20166 votes

The problem comes in low elo when on one talks/trades champs. If your first pick mid, you are basically done for.

The Yetii RiderMay 25, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Omega T33mo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ElArbPzZ,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-25T01:51:22.871+0000)

The problem comes in low elo when on one talks/trades champs. If your first pick mid, you are basically done for.

So queue with friends. It's dynamic for a reason.

Omega T33moMay 25, 20165 votes

im lonely qq Nah i dont duo because most my friends suck...

KillerKellMay 25, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Omega T33mo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ElArbPzZ,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-25T03:16:22.326+0000)

im lonely qq Nah i dont duo because most my friends suck...

Who said 'Friends'? People you've recently played with that didn't suck and had good attitudes. Invite them.

AMYS GRAVEMay 31, 20161 votes

Stay under Turret. Let Zed Dive. CC his ass under Turret.

Assuming the zed is bad and turret dives you while your defensive spell is up isn't proof of balance. If you're just farming under turret zed will come back to lane with a fresh double kill from bot because he roams exceptionally well.

KillerKellMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Assuming the zed is bad and turret dives you while your defensive spell is up isn't proof of balance. If you're just farming under turret zed will come back to lane with a fresh double kill from bot because he roams exceptionally well.

Umm, why wouldn't your Defensive Spell be up? Unless you used it protecting yourself against a Zed Dive.

That's a flawed circular logic you tried to employ.

You basically state that I'm correct... unless I choose to waste my very precious CC doing something other than keeping Zed away. No, the entire reason I brought the CC was so I can exist against a Zed... I'm not using it unless it's ON ZED.

So if a 'Smart Zed' isn't going to dive me under Turret as long as I have my CC... then a Smart Mage is going to ensure he has his CC available for when Zed gets greedy to dive.

Seems like an impasse, no? Seems sort of like Zed just got countered.

Zed does roam exceptionally well... and when I Ping MIA in Mid and alert Bot, my Tank/Duelist Jungle should be there ready to intercept Zed. Since he doesn't do crap to those types of Champions. Well, unless we Jungle with Immobile Mages now... he will Delete them as he should.

So just like anyone else that roams... having the right Tools and Communicating solve that problem.

So now you are Safe in Lane, because you are smart enough to keep your CC for Zed... and you're Safe vs. Roam because you brought the right Tools and Communicate.

Wow, suddenly it's sounding like a Strategic Team Game.

AMYS GRAVEMay 31, 20161 votes

Umm, why wouldn't your Defensive Spell be up? Unless you used it protecting yourself against a Zed Dive.

Exactly, so zed diving you would be a sign of the zed being bad. That's the play pattern you were commenting on, zed turret diving you while your defensive spell is up, which is the bad play our hypothetical zed made.

So if a 'Smart Zed' isn't going to dive me under Turret as long as I have my CC... then a Smart Mage is going to ensure he has his CC available for when Zed gets greedy to dive.

Zed being greedy isn't a comment on zeds balance, just that a bad player will find ways to lose.

my Tank/Duelist Jungle should be there ready to intercept Zed.

So now you are Safe in Lane, because you are smart enough to keep your CC for Zed... and you're Safe vs. Roam because you brought the right Tools and Communicate.

You don't get to tell your jungler what to pick, In soloq people don't pick the jungler to shut down the mid laner because if they do the enemy jungler gets to run amok. Assuming that your junger was cooperative with their pick you are committing the resources of two champions to shut down one. You have to ask yourself while your jungler is winning your lane for you what is their jungler doing? The answer isn't nothing, and all you've done is farm under turret.

KillerKellMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Exactly, so zed diving you would be a sign of the zed being bad. That's the play pattern you were commenting on, zed turret diving you while your defensive spell is up, which is the bad play our hypothetical zed made.

Zed being greedy isn't a comment on zeds balance, just that a bad player will find ways to lose.

You don't get to tell your jungler what to pick, In soloq people don't pick the jungler to shut down the mid laner because if they do the enemy jungler gets to run amok. Assuming that your junger was cooperative with their pick you are committing the resources of two champions to shut down one. You have to ask yourself while your jungler is winning your lane for you what is their jungler doing? The answer isn't nothing, and all you've done is farm under turret.

The argument is that Zed is diving you under turret killing you and you can't do anything about it. That there is no 'safe zone' from a Zed. So that's what I was discussing. You CAN counter a Zed Turret Dive. By smart usage of your Ability Rotation. Apparently a lot of people are dying to 'Bad Zed Dives' because they don't hold their CC. Then they cry that he's OP, because THEY made the mistake of wasting their CC.
Just as calling out people for wasting their Abilities isn't a comment on Balance. But that's the counter side to stopping a Zed from Diving you under Turret. If you keep your CC, a SMART Zed won't dive you. So you neutralize that part of his kit.
Nope, you sure don't. But if you want to Win, you Communicate. Unless Zed is Last Picked, the smart play is to get something that can Counter Zed. If you have an Immobile Mage you might want that to be a Jungle so he can freely roam to help stop Zed from Hard Countering. You know... Team Work, Strategy, Communication. The 3 things that Hard Counter EVERY Champion. Also the topic was a Roaming, thus a Ganking, Zed. Does a Jungle not 'Counter-Gank'? So we aren't using 2 Resources to Win your Lane... in fact, we aren't even worried about 'Winning' the Lane, only SURVIVING the Lane so we can still make an Impact in Team Fights. But we are using the Jungle to help mitigate Roaming Lanes, which generally is something Good Jungles do.

AMYS GRAVEMay 31, 20161 votes

The argument is that Zed is diving you under turret killing you and you can't do anything about it.

nope, that's your strawman showing again. The argument was that you said zed would dive you and get himself killed and somehow that shows his balance. That's not true. You said ...

Stay under Turret. Let Zed Dive. CC his ass under Turret.

right here

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ElArbPzZ-zed-is-still-a-huge-problem-for-immobile-mages?comment=000300000000

Just as calling out people for wasting their Abilities isn't a comment on Balance. But that's the counter side to stopping a Zed from Diving you under Turret. If you keep your CC, a SMART Zed won't dive you. So you neutralize that part of his kit.

You've prevented him from using his kit on you, but he is now free to roam because you have no lane pressure just farming under turret.

So we aren't using 2 Resources to Win your Lane... in fact, we aren't even worried about 'Winning' the Lane, only SURVIVING the Lane so we can still make an Impact in Team Fights. But we are using the Jungle to help mitigate Roaming Lanes, which generally is something Good Jungles do.

And their jungler is doing what exactly? You are committing more resources to stop the zed than they need to defend him. If the jungler has to be used to stop the zed so you can farm under turret then you've created a 4v3 for the enemy team elsewhere on the map, or their jungler shows up and its Zed+jungler vs jungler as you farm under turret. You can keep shuffling your teammates into the fight but at the end if you are busy farming under turret your team will be out numbered somewhere.

KillerKellMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

nope, that's your strawman showing again. The argument was that you said zed would dive you and get himself killed and somehow that shows his balance. That's not true. You said ...

right here

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ElArbPzZ-zed-is-still-a-huge-problem-for-immobile-mages?comment=000300000000

You've prevented him from using his kit on you, but he is now free to roam because you have no lane pressure just farming under turret.

And their jungler is doing what exactly? You are committing more resources to stop the zed than they need to defend him. If the jungler has to be used to stop the zed so you can farm under turret then you've created a 4v3 for the enemy team elsewhere on the map, or their jungler shows up and its Zed+jungler vs jungler as you farm under turret. You can keep shuffling your teammates into the fight but at the end if you are busy farming under turret your team will be out numbered somewhere.

Except that is part of the crying that Zed is OP. That he can dive you under Turret and you are just Dead with no Counter Play. Yet here, you agree it CAN be countered. So can we remove the 'Free Dive for Insta-Kill 100%' from the complaints against Zed? Is that fair? Because it's absolutely been used in this Thread by those complaining about Zed. So when I reference things others have said... that's not a straw man. You should try reading the entire thread. Nor did I say it showed Balance, I said it showed Counter Play.
Him getting fed IN LANE to Snow Ball was called into question. I've explained how to not let him do that. Then the addition of "Well, now h roams". So... we just let people Roam Free? Is that what we do? Only if you like losing. Obviously, the Jungle counters the Roam. Just like their Jungle has to counter when our team Roams. Or leaves the lane being roamed to at a disadvantage. You act like covering a Roam is some thing unique to Zed or something... it's the same thing you'd do against any Roaming Champion.
Nothing stops me from pushing lane with Abilities or even Roaming myself when Zed leaves. I guess I don't ward, twiddle my thumbs and stay under Turret until he comes back? Why in the world would I do that? Then you say my team will be out numbered some where... but discuss Zed and his Split Push which leaves his team down 4v5. Again, a Trade Off. He gets the Numbers Advantage early... we get the Numbers Advantage late.

The entire point is the same thing that beats every other Champion in League... beats Zed. Smart Comp. Good Communication. Safe/Smart Play. Team Work. Itemization. Those things, especially in combination, defeat any and every Champion in the Game. Even a level of Personal Skill/Out Play Potential thrown into the mix.

Those that complain about Zed are simply stuck in their ways and refuse to use all the advice given (take the right Summoner Spells, save your CC for his Dive, Pick the right Champion Type, Get a Good Comp.

It's like those people that refuse to get the first Hard CC, then wonder why Yi killed everyone. Well, he's easy enough to Counter. Your fault for not bringing any CC so he can just waltz all over your team.

That's a Player Fail, not a Design Fail.

AMYS GRAVEMay 31, 20161 votes

Except that is part of the crying that Zed is OP.

There are a lot of people making bad arguments against Zed, that doesn't make yours good.

Then the addition of "Well, now h roams". So... we just let people Roam Free? Is that what we do?

If you suggest that we just farm under tower then that is zed's response play. How do you suggest we stop him from doing so?

Nothing stops me from pushing lane with Abilities or even Roaming myself when Zed leaves. I guess I don't ward, twiddle my thumbs and stay under Turret until he comes back? Why in the world would I do that?

All the strawman here. You can deny zed two waves while he roams, but when he comes back with a double kill you've already lost. Do you follow him on the roam only to get ambushed on your way? If you can't duel him you can't follow him.

Then you say my team will be out numbered some where... but discuss Zed and his Split Push which leaves his team down 4v5. Again, a Trade Off. He gets the Numbers Advantage early... we get the Numbers Advantage late.

This is a fair point, but it shows that zed has a fallback pattern when behind, which you claimed he did not have here:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ElArbPzZ-zed-is-still-a-huge-problem-for-immobile-mages?comment=00030001000000000000000000000001000000000000

A Zed that isn't Fed is pretty much useless come Mid Game.

so yeah...

That's a Player Fail, not a Design Fail.

When a player fails in a match up by design its a design fail. As you say here:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ElArbPzZ-zed-is-still-a-huge-problem-for-immobile-mages?comment=00030001000000000000

It's not stupid, that's the INTENT of Zed.

He is designed to make you fail against him.

EDIT: forgot to make a point, tried to ninja edit in the last few lines before you replied, hopefully you weren't too quick.

KillerKellJun 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There are a lot of people making bad arguments against Zed, that doesn't make yours good.

If you suggest that we just farm under tower then that is zed's response play. How do you suggest we stop him from doing so?

All the strawman here. You can deny zed two waves while he roams, but when he comes back with a double kill you've already lost. Do you follow him on the roam only to get ambushed on your way? If you can't duel him you can't follow him.

This is a fair point, but it shows that zed has a fallback pattern when behind, which you claimed he did not have here:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ElArbPzZ-zed-is-still-a-huge-problem-for-immobile-mages?comment=00030001000000000000000000000001000000000000

so yeah...

When a player fails in a match up by design its a design fail. As you say here:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ElArbPzZ-zed-is-still-a-huge-problem-for-immobile-mages?comment=00030001000000000000

He is designed to make you fail against him.

EDIT: forgot to make a point, tried to ninja edit in the last few lines before you replied, hopefully you weren't too quick.

I'm simply countering the arguments given. Can I help if the 'Anti-Zed' movement makes a lot of bad arguments? I take them one by one, my friend.
Again, you are looking Micro instead of Macro. If I Farm under Turret, and that encourages Zed to Roam, then my Jungle will counter him as he would literally any other Roam. This should, in theory, deny Zed that Double Kill you seem to count as a given. It's only a given if people don't respond to your MIA and respect that you simply don't have a Champion that can Follow that Zed Roam. This is assuming you are an Immobile Mage, such as the Thread states.
As the Immobile Mage, once Zed decides to Roam you have 2 Options. Push Wave, hard and fast. Get what you can on the Turret with good Vision. If you can't get good vision... then you can't over extend. Option 2 is Roam the other way. He goes Top, you go Bot if it's viable. He goes Bot, you go Top. Your Jungle is already responding to Zed... now THEIR Jungle has to either help Zed in his Roam, or move to try to stop you. Or Free Farm while you Roam, but that's a bad play assuming you aren't doing a useless roam on an already Under Turret target (in which case back to Option 1, Vision Up and Push Wave). Obviously, as we both agree... what you DO NOT DO is Follow Zed (or LeBlanc, or Akali, or Katarina... or, maybe... does Kassadin fit here as well?).
All Champions have a fall back when behind. Generally it's either Split Pushing under Vision or Clearing Waves then Camps near the Lane, under Vision. Near a Turret. With Zed, if Behind he's likely going to want to Split if his team is ready to Group, so he can get a 'free lane' to Farm and catch up. So you either send some one that can deal with it... or beat the 4 before he catches up. Same as with any Split Pusher. Both are risky, as a solid enough Turtle will let virtual anyone eventually Push to Base... but sending some one to stop the Push and failing leaves the Push AND gives a 4v4 in the Contested Lane. Risk/Reward, to be certain. As it should be. (Then, of course, offering to Split the Open Lane that Zed isn't in is also another Option... so 1-4-0 vs. 0-4-1.) But this STILL means he has to be 'away' for a bit to 'catch up'. That's your critical time to take the Objectives to open up your Win Conditions.
Except he's not designed to make YOU fail against him. He's designed to make Low HP Targets fail. And even some of them have pretty nifty ways of not giving in to Zed... like other High Mobility Assassins, for instance. So picking the exact thing he's designed to destroy IS a Player Issue.
Lastly, we have to look beyond Champion X versus Champion Y. The Macro is vital, and often over looked in these Match Ups. You may well be the 'lesser Champion' in Lane, but you can be the 'greater Champion' after Lane Phase. Again, we talk Trade Offs. For instance, if Ziggs can just simply survive Lane, his Wave Clear will net his Gold and he'll be a terror Sieging much faster than Zed can Split Push. Between Satchel Charge and Short Fuse, and his Q to keep poking into those defending Turret, it's a simple matter to Group and Siege. Also, a Good Ziggs can get ahead early Pre-6 on a Zed (but to the counter, a more skilled Zed can out play the Ziggs early also. Very Skill Match Up in the Pre-6... who can dodge better.).
That's the issue with Assassins. They are designed to be 'Win by 25' Types, that cause you to /ff at 20 or be so fed that no one can 1v1 them while they Split. Late Game they require some one to get silly and leave the pack, so they can take them down Solo leading to a 5v4 advantage. If no one offers this, they are heavy weight to carry looking for the 'in' or 'flank' while the Mage is laying down Burst and/or AoE on his Team. So again, we have to look beyond Champ vs. Champ to Team vs. Team to really see how it fares. We see a LOT of Assassins get ahead early, but not have the tools to close and thus lose. Zed is no exception. The longer the game goes, the more he requires a Mistake to punish. Not so much with a Mage, who can just keep firing Abilities into the Front Line with the ADC eating through Armor to help until there is no front line left to keep the Carries safe... all the while Zed has to creep the shadows to find his spot to strike and hope he isn't peeled.

Either way, thanks for at least being rational with your takes. Nothing beats a good back and forth where both sides can be open with the other.

Dark NephthysMay 25, 201611 votes

{quoted}

How much Mana do you run out of when you are Dead?

Oh, all of it? Got ya.

So tell me again why you can't rush Zhonya's...

So if you are playing a mage that is forced to rush item 3027 or item 3003 or both, you should just not buy those so you can get a first item item 3157 and go oom in like 1-2 spell rotations? Not to mention if you do that, you won't have the mana or mana regen to even clear out the minions that he can never ending push to your tower.

Also I'm tired of everyone always saying that getting item 3157 means you basically win against Zed...Zhonyas works well against his ultimate sure, but his damage is so high that he can easily just kill you without even relying on his ultimate and that's not even counting the fact that he can already do over half your hp with double shuirken which is going to be even stronger next patch.

I really hope they actually do some other nerf on Zed for next patch since they reverted his nerf on his ultimate.

KillerKellMay 25, 20162 votes

The point is that sometimes you will have to go off your Build to SURVIVE.

That's just how it is.

So ensure your AP comes with HP or Armor or Shields to protect you. Because you have to Survive if you are going to have ANY impact on the game.

Omega T33moMay 25, 20169 votes

Itsw very stupid how zed can just rush maw agaisnt any mage and auto win lane. You can't do much damage and any burst you may have is negated by the passive. Then we get zhonyas that will negate 1 maybe 2 abilities every 100 or so seconds

KillerKellMay 25, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Omega T33mo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ElArbPzZ,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2016-05-25T03:18:09.922+0000)

Itsw very stupid how zed can just rush maw agaisnt any mage and auto win lane. You can't do much damage and any burst you may have is negated by the passive. Then we get zhonyas that will negate 1 maybe 2 abilities every 100 or so seconds

It's not stupid, that's the INTENT of Zed.

So you see a Zed, don't get a Mage. Duel him with an Assassin. Or take a Tank like Tank Ekko or Cho'Gath.

If you picked first... then do what you can with Items to do the best you can.

NakedGrannyMay 25, 20164 votes

If one champ forces the entire enemy team to play around them, that is the definition of overpowered.

It so happens that Zed is foaming-at-the-mouth infuriatingly frustrating to play against. He's anti-fun in absolutely every way with no counter play. He should be either reworked completely or removed from the game. He's toxic to the game's design philosophy, just like Blitz.

KillerKellMay 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If one champ forces the entire enemy team to play around them, that is the definition of overpowered.

It so happens that Zed is foaming-at-the-mouth infuriatingly frustrating to play against. He's anti-fun in absolutely every way with no counter play. He should be either reworked completely or removed from the game. He's toxic to the game's design philosophy, just like Blitz.

When ever some one called Mid and a Zed (or LeBlanc, or Katarina, or Akali) was picked by the enemy, I generally found myself switching lanes with them. Then I'd bring Shen or Cho' Gath to lane and destroy.

Of course this put our Mid vs. who ever the Enemy Top was, but generally they would be fine with this to not have to deal with he hassle that Assassins vs. Mages are.

Also, how exactly is Blitz a toxic design? He lives and dies off of his Hook. Umm... dodge it. Cleans it. QSS it. Banshee's it. It's not like there aren't counters. He's not Toxic at all, he's damn near useless against people that simply are willing to do what needs to be done to counter him. Which is simply be aware that Blitz is in the Game.

I have a TON of fun playing against Zed... but then, I bring the right tools. You don't fight an Assassin with a Mage, you fight an Assassin with a Tank. It's not rocket science. Or a Yas, I hear Zed has problems with a Yas, but I suck at Yas so I can't give 1st Hand Experience with that. But guess what Yas is not... a Mage.

Point being, you can't just be a Mid Mage every game... of course that isn't going to work out. Because almost every Assassin capable of Mid has the edge over the Mage.

But what you want is to always be a Mage Mid and not have to change that, so anything that disrupts that is OP and shouldn't be allowed.

Funny, Zed Counter Picks you... but you don't feel you should have to Counter Pick Zed. Interesting.

NakedGrannyMay 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

When ever some one called Mid and a Zed (or LeBlanc, or Katarina, or Akali) was picked by the enemy, I generally found myself switching lanes with them. Then I'd bring Shen or Cho' Gath to lane and destroy.

Of course this put our Mid vs. who ever the Enemy Top was, but generally they would be fine with this to not have to deal with he hassle that Assassins vs. Mages are.

That raises the question of why assassins are allowed to be so extremely anti-fun. Admitting that they're impossible to deal with is precisely the admission that they are overpowered and toxic to the game.

{quoted}

Also, how exactly is Blitz a toxic design? He lives and dies off of his Hook. Umm... dodge it. Cleans it. QSS it. Banshee's it. It's not like there aren't counters. He's not Toxic at all, he's damn near useless against people that simply are willing to do what needs to be done to counter him. Which is simply be aware that Blitz is in the Game.

Forcing the enemy team to all build specifically to counter a single ability on a single enemy champion is the definition of toxic imbalance.

But more to the point, your proposals for how to counter Blitz don't hold up under scrutiny. By the time you can afford to buy any of those "counter" items, he's already gotten his carry extremely fed and it's too late (assuming that you shouldn't be more worried about countering the carry...). But it's also simply fact that right now if you're stuck trying to counter someone, you've already lost: counters are not as effective as simply not needing to counter in the first place.

Furthermore, you absolutely cannot dodge every single last hook he throws. All it takes is just one, and it's an automatic win in that fight. You might dodge a hundred of them, but even just one successful hook wins the fight and there is literally nothing you can do about it. No, sorry, you don't get to just handwave and say "dodge more lol!" because it's not just a matter of how good you are at dodging. Assuming equal skill, there is no "dodging" because your evasion is countered by the Blitz players' skill at making the shot. It's canceled out. It doesn't count.

Even furthermore, burning all those resources just to counter Blitz means he wins: if you counter him, you're not countering his allies -- and therefore he has accomplished his goal as a tanky support. It's lose-lose-lose no matter what you try to do about him.

That's.

Over.

Powered.

{quoted}

I have a TON of fun playing against Zed... but then, I bring the right tools. You don't fight an Assassin with a Mage, you fight an Assassin with a Tank. It's not rocket science. Or a Yas, I hear Zed has problems with a Yas, but I suck at Yas so I can't give 1st Hand Experience with that. But guess what Yas is not... a Mage.

So.... you think that no one should ever be allowed to play the champion they want to play? That no one should ever be allowed to just have fun the way they want? That just because YOU are bragging that you don't have problems with Zed that therefore no one else's complaint is valid?

... Ok. Well.

Y'know.

I think I should thank you for proving my point.

{quoted}

Point being, you can't just be a Mid Mage every game... of course that isn't going to work out. Because almost every Assassin capable of Mid has the edge over the Mage.

THAT IS THE FUCKING PROBLEM.

That. Is. The very precise problem here.

{quoted}

But what you want is to always be a Mage Mid and not have to change that, so anything that disrupts that is OP and shouldn't be allowed.

Funny, Zed Counter Picks you... but you don't feel you should have to Counter Pick Zed. Interesting.

It's not funny. It's proof that Riot only has a tenuous grasp of what game design means.

Transitive relationships are not balanced, by definition. They are the textbook example of how to design a fundamentally flawed and toxic gameplay.

Rock-Paper-Scissors has long been understood to be the exact antithesis of good game design or tactical balance.

That you are defending it only says that your opinion on the matter should be disregarded and suppressed because you're spreading misinformation and providing false validation to encourage Riot to continue being stupid.

KillerKellMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That raises the question of why assassins are allowed to be so extremely anti-fun. Admitting that they're impossible to deal with is precisely the admission that they are overpowered and toxic to the game.

"Define Anti-Fun. As I said, I have a great time playing against Zed, because I bring the right Champion Pool to face him. It's not about Assassins being over powered at all, it's about not having the right Comp. That's on the Player, not the Game. You are basically saying 'I should be able to play Champion X every game no matter what without issue'... umm, THAT would be OP."

Forcing the enemy team to all build specifically to counter a single ability on a single enemy champion is the definition of toxic imbalance.

"Or to take the proper Summoner Spells. But then, what do you build to counter AD? Oh, Armor. What do you build to counter AP? Oh, MR. What you are failing to realize is EVERY ONE builds to counter what ever the Enemy Team is doing. That's sort of the STRATEGY. If they have 3+ Champions depending on Attack Speed, nerf that crap with Frozen Heart. You wouldn't sit there with NO ARMOR and say "Man, this AD is OP! I keep dying to Physical Damage! WAAAAH!". So yeah, you sort of Buy to Counter. And if you do that, Zed will have to decide if he keeps dying diving Champs he can't kill, or buy Armor to survive and thus lack Damage."

But more to the point, your proposals for how to counter Blitz don't hold up under scrutiny. By the time you can afford to buy any of those "counter" items, he's already gotten his carry extremely fed and it's too late (assuming that you shouldn't be more worried about countering the carry...). But it's also simply fact that right now if you're stuck trying to counter someone, you've already lost: counters are not as effective as simply not needing to counter in the first place.

"Don't walk at a bush without minions? I mean, you can 'buy' that at Level 1. As I said, simply be aware a Blitz is there. You do that, simply acknowledge he exists... you'll dodge way more of his Hooks. And as a Leona or Braum, I sit in front of Blitz and BEG him to pull me. Taric probably does as well. Alistar... Mao'Kai... Malphite..."

Furthermore, you absolutely cannot dodge every single last hook he throws. All it takes is just one, and it's an automatic win in that fight. You might dodge a hundred of them, but even just one successful hook wins the fight and there is literally nothing you can do about it. No, sorry, you don't get to just handwave and say "dodge more lol!" because it's not just a matter of how good you are at dodging. Assuming equal skill, there is no "dodging" because your evasion is countered by the Blitz players' skill at making the shot. It's canceled out. It doesn't count.

"Well, yeah... you can. But first, you must be aware he exists and stop face checking brush with nothing in front of you. And again, plenty of Champions BEG Blitz to pull them."

Even furthermore, burning all those resources just to counter Blitz means he wins: if you counter him, you're not countering his allies -- and therefore he has accomplished his goal as a tanky support. It's lose-lose-lose no matter what you try to do about him.

"This is true of any Champion. If you build Armor to counter the ADC... you aren't countering the APC. If you buy MR to counter the APC... you aren't countering the ADC. If you buy Damage, you aren't Countering Damage Dealers. Holy frak, who knew you actually had to Buy to Counter ANYTHING in this game, and that choosing one thing over another will likely counter one thing but not the next?"

That's.

Over.

Powered.

"No... it's not. It's pretty much how every game ever is done, because it gives you options. If everything was 'balanced' there would be nothing to Counter, every Champions would be practically the same and ALL chance of any Variety would be gone. That's a bland, boring, vanilla game."

So.... you think that no one should ever be allowed to play the champion they want to play? That no one should ever be allowed to just have fun the way they want? That just because YOU are bragging that you don't have problems with Zed that therefore no one else's complaint is valid?

"You can play what ever Champion you want to play, every single game. What you are asking for is to have every single Champion VIABLE to WIN every game. That's just silly."

... Ok. Well.

Y'know.

I think I should thank you for proving my point.

THAT IS THE FUCKING PROBLEM.

"Except it's not a problem."

That. Is. The very precise problem here.

It's not funny. It's proof that Riot only has a tenuous grasp of what game design means.

Transitive relationships are not balanced, by definition. They are the textbook example of how to design a fundamentally flawed and toxic gameplay.

Rock-Paper-Scissors has long been understood to be the exact antithesis of good game design or tactical balance.

"Ever play any Strategy Game ever? Like ever? Any of them? Every single one of them is Paper-Rock-Scissors. Ever play Chess? Same thing there. You know what isn't? Checkers. Which is why it's bland, boring, and very very limited in Strategy. You want them to make League Checkers, instead of Chess."

That you are defending it only says that your opinion on the matter should be disregarded and suppressed because you're spreading misinformation and providing false validation to encourage Riot to continue being stupid.

"It's always smart to simply disregard opinions because they don't match your own, then validate yourself by the disregarding done. I also spread no misinformation at all here, and my personal posts don't encourage Riot to do anything at all. Your hyperbole is showing, which is usually a sign of a weak argument."

AMYS GRAVEMay 31, 20161 votes

"It's always smart to simply disregard opinions because they don't match your own, then validate yourself by the disregarding done. I also spread no misinformation at all here, and my personal posts don't encourage Riot to do anything at all. Your hyperbole is showing, which is usually a sign of a weak argument."

Straw man.

KillerKellMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Straw man.

You confuse sarcasm for a Straw Man. I didn't offer up a differing example to replace his example.

AMYS GRAVEMay 31, 20161 votes

You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack. - strawman

KillerKellMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack. - strawman

I didn't misrepresent at all. He literally said his opinion is fact, and no matter what it's not going to change. Thus he literally disregarded opinions that don't match his own, then used a tone of authority due to disregarding them.

Hence my sarcasm.

As for the other analogy, it was spot on. No misrepresentation there. He's been told, numerous times now, how to Counter Zed.

Except that's not what he wants. He wants the exact target Zed is designed to Counter to simply not be Countered. Which is completely silly. Instead of adjusting to Pick/Ban, he'd just like to be able to play Immobile Mage into anything and be just fine for it. Well if you could pick Immobile Mages into anything, we'd all be Immobile Mages... wow, that'd be swell. (More sarcasm, not to be confused with a Straw Man.)

AMYS GRAVEMay 31, 20161 votes

I didn't misrepresent at all. He literally said his opinion is fact, and no matter what it's not going to change.

Oh hi again strawman, there you are.

Thus he literally disregarded opinions that don't match his own, then used a tone of authority due to disregarding them.

That's not what he did at all. You are projecting your frustration onto them.

Except that's not what he wants. He wants the exact target Zed is designed to Counter to simply not be Countered.

Straw man, he wants them to be viable, not not countered. Reread his post.

Well if you could pick Immobile Mages into anything, we'd all be Immobile Mages... wow, that'd be swell.

No we wouldn't, that's a slippery slope argument because mages being viable doesn't mean that we would all pick them every game. Make better arguments.

AMYS GRAVEMay 31, 20161 votes

Point being, you can't just be a Mid Mage every game.

where are you supposed to go? Mages dont have good jungle itemization, in general perform poorly top lane, we need an ADC bot, and mages dont generally function well on the gold income a support offers. If we can't play mages mid we can't play them at all. Zed et all is crowding out a whole class of champions from the game.

Funny, Zed Counter Picks you... but you don't feel you should have to Counter Pick Zed. Interesting.

Zed is a safe pick into any lane matchup, he can always farm and split push the game out without ever being in risk of death. If mages try to get in range to farm they risk death, and they dont have a free last hit execute passive to help them cs.

KillerKellMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

where are you supposed to go? Mages dont have good jungle itemization, in general perform poorly top lane, we need an ADC bot, and mages dont generally function well on the gold income a support offers. If we can't play mages mid we can't play them at all. Zed et all is crowding out a whole class of champions from the game.

"It's not about WHERE to take the Mage, it's about NOT ALWAYS taking a Mage. At least not one suspect to being deleted by Zed."

Zed is a safe pick into any lane matchup, he can always farm and split push the game out without ever being in risk of death. If mages try to get in range to farm they risk death, and they dont have a free last hit execute passive to help them cs.

"This isn't true at all. But again, you back track and limit it to 'mages' which is more close to the truth. Plenty of Champs put the fear into Zed... which is why he's best used as a Counter Pick AFTER a Mage is selected."

AMYS GRAVEMay 31, 20161 votes

"It's not about WHERE to take the Mage, it's about NOT ALWAYS taking a Mage. At least not one suspect to being deleted by Zed."

Zed is a hard counter to some, without being hard countered by any. That creates a situation where an entire class can't be picked because of one champion which is not a fair situation. Every champion should be able to be picked somewhere, saying you can't isn't good game design and its how some champions get left in the gutter for seasons on end.

"This isn't true at all. But again, you back track and limit it to 'mages' which is more close to the truth. Plenty of Champs put the fear into Zed... which is why he's best used as a Counter Pick AFTER a Mage is selected."

Why don't you think that's true? If you are afraid on zed then you either blew your escapes, aren't building proper counter items, or are trying to be too aggressive.

KillerKellMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Zed is a hard counter to some, without being hard countered by any. That creates a situation where an entire class can't be picked because of one champion which is not a fair situation. Every champion should be able to be picked somewhere, saying you can't isn't good game design and its how some champions get left in the gutter for seasons on end.

Why don't you think that's true? If you are afraid on zed then you either blew your escapes, aren't building proper counter items, or are trying to be too aggressive.

Except he DOES have Counters. Numerous Champions with a +51% Win Rate against Zed, for one. But secondly, in Immobile Mages alone you have both Swain and Galio. So even in that regard, you have Two Direct Counters in the exact niche he's supposed to be deleting. Once you add the Bruisers, Tanks and Duelists... that's a crap ton of Counters.

Every Champion CAN be picked some where, but not without consideration to the Enemy Team Composition. Of course you're going to take Yi to the Jungle... but are you going to take Yi to the Jungle vs. a team full of Hard CC, Burst, and great Early Counter Jungling? No, of course not. Because that's the exact recipe that destroys Yi. So you'd pick something else. And likely not Jax, Xin or Udyr, who play an awful lot like Yi in the Jungle... because those exact things destroy them as well.

So why in the world should we think we can just pick an Immobile Mage in Mid regardless of what the Enemy Comp is doing?

So yeah, you can absolutely play an Immobile Mage. You can play them Mid. Some even play Top. But you need to keep in CONSIDERATION that the Enemy Team can make picks that will make an Immobile Mage less successful over all. Just like, you know, your Team can pick things to counter their picks.

Because there is a list of Champions that can defeat Zed 1v1. But then you back tracked to 'Immobile Mages'. Then you still have Ryze, Galio, Swain... I'm likely missing some as well.

Trying to be to aggressive is a common mistake with Zed, because he is built to be a constant threat. You have to be willing to get in there and take chances. Punishing Mistakes is a good strategy for anyone, in any lane, with any match up.

So yeah, play smart and conservative until Zed makes a mistake, then punish him. If he's waiting for your mistake, do your best to keep a solid position so he's at a draw in lane because he's not being aggressive enough.

A Zed that isn't Fed is pretty much useless come Mid Game.

AMYS GRAVEMay 31, 20161 votes

Swain and Galio.

are both AP bruisers not mages, Urgot counters zed too but that's aside the point.

but are you going to take Yi to the Jungle vs. a team full of Hard CC, Burst, and great Early Counter Jungling?

You compare Yi, Jax, etc... with the mages who have the exact problems you point out. They have just the problem mages have where they can get absolutely hard countered out of being viable. Its why diving fighters are on the class update list as possibly next. Hard counters create gameplay problems.

So why in the world should we think we can just pick an Immobile Mage in Mid regardless of what the Enemy Comp is doing?

Yes, same thing for every champ. You should be able to pick them without being absolutely useless otherwise the game is decided at champ select.

A Zed that isn't Fed is pretty much useless come Mid Game.

Zed has some of the best mid game split pushing in the game, and doesn't need to be fed to do so because he has enough free stats in his kit to waveclear quickly to push up to a turret through his passive and the passive ad on his w. He may not be able to take a turret but he will force a response out of the enemy and if he is behind then he is wining because he drew an enemy with more gold than he has to answer him. Zed's kit has more in it than his assassination potential.

KillerKellMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

are both AP bruisers not mages, Urgot counters zed too but that's aside the point.

You compare Yi, Jax, etc... with the mages who have the exact problems you point out. They have just the problem mages have where they can get absolutely hard countered out of being viable. Its why diving fighters are on the class update list as possibly next. Hard counters create gameplay problems.

Yes, same thing for every champ. You should be able to pick them without being absolutely useless otherwise the game is decided at champ select.

Zed has some of the best mid game split pushing in the game, and doesn't need to be fed to do so because he has enough free stats in his kit to waveclear quickly to push up to a turret through his passive and the passive ad on his w. He may not be able to take a turret but he will force a response out of the enemy and if he is behind then he is wining because he drew an enemy with more gold than he has to answer him. Zed's kit has more in it than his assassination potential.

I do compare Yi, Jax, Xin and Udyr. For a good reason. Counters add to the over all strategy. If everyone was viable in every situation there would be no 'niche' picks. Niche adds to Variety, instead of having the same blandness.
No, this is false all the way around. Every champ should NOT be viable in every situation. That's just pure stupidity. That would reduce Trade Offs. If you go Engage, we do Disengage. Who ever executes the Comp best, likely Wins. Or we match you Engage on Engage and who ever executes best Wins. But there are certain things you just don't use against an Engage Comp. Part of the complexity and strategy is just that, the Pick/Ban to get the more dominant Comp. But even then, Skill matters. Nothing is ever 'Won' in Pick/Ban, only Advantages which can be lost through lack of execution.
And if Zed is off Split Pushing, then that Immobile Mage is Grouping with his Team shoving 5 onto their 4 and taking Objectives while Zed is away. Counter Play. They split, you force. So the Response that should be forced against a Zed that is slow to take Turrets is a Group Call to wreck any and every Objective until Zed has to abandon his Split. Again, Counter Play. A reaction to an action.

AMYS GRAVEMay 31, 20161 votes

Counters add to the over all strategy.

Having counters that eliminate entire classes from viability does not add to the strategy of the game.

No, this is false all the way around. Every champ should NOT be viable in every situation.

They may not be the best pick, but they should be able to do something, and there are champs who can't in certain matchups. Yi into Annie, Zed into Liss, an ADC into Rengar, etc... If you are forced into one of these matchups you dont get to play league of legends for the next 30 min, and that's stupid af. At that point i dont even care if we win the game, i just wanted to be able to play to do something instead of getting dicked on.

And if Zed is off Split Pushing, then that Immobile Mage is Grouping with his Team shoving 5 onto their 4 and taking Objectives while Zed is away. Counter Play. They split, you force. So the Response that should be forced against a Zed that is slow to take Turrets is a Group Call to wreck any and every Objective until Zed has to abandon his Split. Again, Counter Play. A reaction to an action.

Zed takes turrets super fast, i don't know what game you've been playing for the past year but turrets were weak af for the first half this season, then they added armor/MR which helped but anyone who buys pen (read assassins) is taking them down faster than before because against flat pen they have lower effective HP than before.

On the other part of your argument if he is forcing you into reactive play then he is winning by dictating map movements. If he was forced off his split push then either his team couldn't slow down the enemy push at all, or he isn't split pushing effectively. A split push should always either force an answer, or be a trade of objectives.

KillerKellJun 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Having counters that eliminate entire classes from viability does not add to the strategy of the game.

They may not be the best pick, but they should be able to do something, and there are champs who can't in certain matchups. Yi into Annie, Zed into Liss, an ADC into Rengar, etc... If you are forced into one of these matchups you dont get to play league of legends for the next 30 min, and that's stupid af. At that point i dont even care if we win the game, i just wanted to be able to play to do something instead of getting dicked on.

Zed takes turrets super fast, i don't know what game you've been playing for the past year but turrets were weak af for the first half this season, then they added armor/MR which helped but anyone who buys pen (read assassins) is taking them down faster than before because against flat pen they have lower effective HP than before.

On the other part of your argument if he is forcing you into reactive play then he is winning by dictating map movements. If he was forced off his split push then either his team couldn't slow down the enemy push at all, or he isn't split pushing effectively. A split push should always either force an answer, or be a trade of objectives.

Well, it's a competition. Some times you get a tough match up... that's how it goes. Being Countered sucks, but that's when you play for the Macro instead of the Micro.
Everyone takes Turrets super fast these days. I'm meaning in a general comparison. Like a Ziggs, for instance. THAT is a Fast Turret Clear. Auto, Auto, Short Fuse, Satchel... next Turret please! But you aren't Split Pushing with Ziggs in the literal sense, though you'll certainly tap a Turret if you have Vision and see 5 far away. :D
True, but at the same token YOU forced Zed to Roam by playing safe and farming under Turret. Essentially, YOU dictated his Roam. Which means YOUR Team should be prepared for it and look for it to get effective Picks on him, that at least blow his Spells and open up an Objective while he Backs. Instead of playing aggressive and giving him 6 Kills in Lane, THEN he roams as an unstoppable beast. What you see as Zed dictating is actually the Smart Mage dictating. "You won't get those Kills here, and we're ready for you before you even leave the Lane." That should be the Mentality... with ANY Roam Champion you face. For instance, you'd be prepared for a Jungle Gank, right? You'd have Vision, take Map Info to see where he might be and how long before he can get in position for you... then decide to push or engage or not based on that. Same with Roam Champions, whether Mobile Mids or Teleport Tops. I'm going to FORCE Zed to Leave Lane and Miss Waves and Miss Pressure on Turret. THEN Phase 2 is my Team Lanes being aware of the Roam to negate it... so he's wasting time taking long walks up and down the Rivers. Each time he leaves for nothing, I'm either catching up or getting ahead... and he's falling behind everyone. Especially if we catch him out 2 or 3 versus Zed (assuming Jungle/Support have some Peel/Hard CC).
In other words the entire Idea should be to FORCE Zed to Roam, and then Deny those Roams any Success. Which is literally the exact same thing you'd do for ANY Roam Champion.

KillerKellMay 25, 20162 votes

The point is that sometimes you will have to go off your Build to SURVIVE.

That's just how it is.

So ensure your AP comes with HP or Armor or Shields to protect you. Because you have to Survive if you are going to have ANY impact on the game.

Dark NephthysMay 25, 20165 votes

{quoted}

The point is that sometimes you will have to go off your Build to SURVIVE.

That's just how it is.

So ensure your AP comes with HP or Armor or Shields to protect you. Because you have to Survive if you are going to have ANY impact on the game.

So if you are playing a mage with really really high mana cost like... Anivia where it's very easy to go oom with her unless you have both item 3003 item 3027 , you are saying to not build those items so I can get a Zhonyas to survive his burst? I understand for burst mages where they don't have a crazy amount of mana cost or any other mages that only get item 3165 as their only mana items since the item is not a scaling item and can be bought at any time, but any mage that needs a tear/RoA has to get them first or they'll be useless in mid game.

But a problem I'm having with Zed is also just how good of an item his first item is to... item 3156 . It's just a 1 stop item that basically means that he can easily survive any mages, while also giving him every other stat he needs to. item 3157 's itself isn't even that good of an item when compared to the other AP items. It gives low amounts of AP, only a decent amount of armor (which sadly is almost less than the MR you get from Maw...) and 10% cdr which isn't even that big of a deal. Maw just offers way to much and that is making it impossible for any mages to do much against Zed. That's not even getting into how strong the components of each of the item favors the AD since item 3191 is basically nothing when compared to item 3155 .

The Great DivideMay 25, 20169 votes

Yeah, people often pull the "you just gotta alter everything to survive," when how many times does Zed ever have to do anything different in his playstyle? Perhaps maw first instead of youmuu's, but that's all I can think of.

Yes, you are supposed to counterbuild, and that's valid. But many people are somehow fine with the fact that Zed makes you alter so much in how you play, build, and pick.... I just don't get it. At some point, something's gotta give.

Dark NephthysMay 25, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Great Divide,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ElArbPzZ,comment-id=00030001000100000000,timestamp=2016-05-25T04:26:33.989+0000)

Yeah, people often pull the "you just gotta alter everything to survive," when how many times does Zed ever have to do anything different in his playstyle? Perhaps maw first instead of youmuu's, but that's all I can think of.

Yes, you are supposed to counterbuild, and that's valid. But many people are somehow fine with the fact that Zed makes you alter so much in how you play, build, and pick.... I just don't get it. At some point, something's gotta give.

Yea and speaking of pick, it's funny when people say "oh just pick a good counter to fight Zed then" which isn't always a option since you might be playing blind pick or you are picking your lane before them. Because if the enemy team picks Zed , then I'll probably just pick some one like Kennen Lissandra or hell champions like Ahri Lulu Morgana can probably do pretty well into Zed.

Mecha MaIphiteMay 25, 20161 votes

I find that RoA is actually not a bad item against Zed. Sure, it's not going to completely nullify his ult, but the extra HP makes it so he can't 100-0 you.

NakedGrannyMay 28, 20162 votes

By the time you can afford a RoA, he's already won the lane, has five kills and it's 20:00 with a dragon lost and the enemy bot lane fed to hell.

KillerKellMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

By the time you can afford a RoA, he's already won the lane, has five kills and it's 20:00 with a dragon lost and the enemy bot lane fed to hell.

LMFAO! Wow, some one has a very bad time against Zed.

NakedGrannyMay 31, 20162 votes

Everyone does.

That's why he needs to be disabled from the selection menu until he is reworked.

KillerKellMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Everyone does.

That's why he needs to be disabled from the selection menu until he is reworked.

No, everyone doesn't. That's the point you are missing. You literally have people in here telling you how they deal with Zed, there are Posts and Threads about it, Videos about it, Guides about it.

But no, you insist on being able to wreck Zed with the exact thing he is designed to Counter.

That's like me saying "There is a fire. We have Water. But I'd rather use Gas to put it out. AHHH! WHY DOES THIS NOT WORK!?!?!?".

Bring the right tool to do the job right. Ensure your Comp is better than their Comp.

It's not about Champion X versus Champion Y... it's about Team A versus Team B.

AMYS GRAVEMay 31, 20161 votes

No, everyone doesn't.

87% ban rate begs to differ.

But no, you insist on being able to wreck Zed with the exact thing he is designed to Counter. That's like me saying "There is a fire. We have Water. But I'd rather use Gas to put it out. AHHH! WHY DOES THIS NOT WORK!?!?!?".

You can drop the strawman, it just makes you look bad.

KillerKellMay 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

87% ban rate begs to differ.

You can drop the strawman, it just makes you look bad.

You seem to fail to grasp the difference between an Analogy and a Straw Man.

He's been told which tools effectively counter Zed, and also been told that Team Comp and Ability to Help Team Win are more important than facing Zed 1v1 in Lane. My analogy fits.

Hope you didn't spend to much on that On-Line Law Degree. Better Call Saul and a Holiday Express should fix you right up.

AMYS GRAVEMay 31, 20161 votes

You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack. Straw man.

Hope you didn't spend to much on that On-Line Law Degree. Better Call Saul and a Holiday Express should fix you right up.

Ad hominem aside I'm not a law student. A PhD in hard science is why i know how to make an argument and can recognize logical fallacies in empty arguments. There are so many good arguments to defend zed with but you're missing them all.