Make Wit's a component item

Rebonack·Nov 21, 2015·14 votes·1,073 views

For anyone who has been around for a while, Wit's End used to be a 2kish item that served as a nice mid-game rush for a lot of tanky-derps but it didn't steal magic resist. The new version was create which, while nice, is a bit too expensive to be a rush item, but not expensive enough to be a core offensive item.

So to that end, I propose splitting it.

Wit's End now builds out of and sits at 2k gold. It would still have the stacking MR buff, but it wouldn't steal resist.

A new item would be added that builds out of that grants much higher attack speed, stronger OnHit magic damage, and a significantly buffed Magic Resist stealing mechanic.

Thus, this new item would serve as a direct analog to Hexdrinker/Maw. A nice cost effective rush item with the option to upgrade into a more potent version of it later in the game.

25 Comments

junglerboy16Nov 21, 20155 votes

I like the overall idea, something like this would probably work.

Maybe instead have it work like this though:

new recipe: + + + 480 gold = 3200 gold.
grants 50 MR, 60% AS, magic damage on-hit equal to 50% of your MR (with no other MR at level one it gives exactly 40 on-hit damage, and scales with the stacking steal as well as any other MR you get).
UNIQUE passive: Basic attacks steal 5 MR on hit, stacks up to 8 times (max 40 MR steal), lasts for 5 seconds.

That pushes it towards a very well defined anti-AP bruiser role (Stack MR for more damage, MR goes a lot higher as well). this item would be 75% gold efficient unstacked, 97.5% gold efficient stacked, not counting the on-hit or MR shred for either. That's pretty much exactly in line with the gold efficiency of most top tier "stack based" items this season.

Irelia BotNov 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I like the overall idea, something like this would probably work.

Maybe instead have it work like this though:

new recipe: + + + 480 gold = 3200 gold.

grants 50 MR, 60% AS, magic damage on-hit equal to 50% of your MR (with no other MR at level one it gives exactly 40 on-hit damage, and scales with the stacking steal as well as any other MR you get).

UNIQUE passive: Basic attacks steal 5 MR on hit, stacks up to 8 times (max 40 MR steal), lasts for 5 seconds.

That pushes it towards a very well defined anti-AP bruiser role (Stack MR for more damage, MR goes a lot higher as well). this item would be 75% gold efficient unstacked, 97.5% gold efficient stacked, not counting the on-hit or MR shred for either. That's pretty much exactly in line with the gold efficiency of most top tier "stack based" items this season.

This concept actually seems to make sense if rebalanced a bit. The issue comes when you throw in champs like WW who would likely break the item given that shredding the enemy MR by 40 is insanely strong and could literally be just as bad as devouter WW in preseason 5 if not worse.

I do however think this would be a good item against AP even without the MR shred. I know if it had this much on hit and attack speed it would likely become my go to second damage item on Irelia even against teams that are not all magic damage.

Now for a realistic build I might have Merrcs (25 MR), SV (70 MR) and wit's (50/80 MR) so in effect 145 to 175 bonus MR. add in 53 MR for being around level level 18 and you have an effective 228 TOTAL MR so 114 on hit magic damage with your suggestion. That seems a bit strong for an item that also is givng 60% attack speed and 90 MR.

As such I will take your concept and try to make it actaully balanced to some degree while keeping the basic concept of scaling with MR and being mor of an end game item in and of itself.

Stackscould easily be a part of the items sdamage within reason. 40 + (3% of owners total MR) per stack on hit could be reasonable for the damage and increase bonus MR by 2 + 1% per stack Also make it so that it is only 6 stacks instead since I don't want the item to be way over the top broken resulting in it gitting excesively nerfed.

An example of the item scaling fairly well into late game might be With maxed stacks 40 + 18% total MR on hit and 12 + 6% MR increase (this increase is added on so 100 MR would have 12 + 6% for a total of 118. On hit it would be 40 + 18% of 118 so 21.24 for 61.24 on hit magic damage.) 200 MR would mean when fully stacked 200 + 12 + 12 = 224 and on hit would be 40 + 18% of total MR for 40.32 so 80.32 on hit magic damage

In other words Recurve Bow (1000) + recurve Bow (1000) + Negatron Cloak (720) +480 = Wit's end 3200 60% attack speed 50 MR 40 on hit magic damage + 3% MR on hit damage for every stack of Wit's the owner has. Unique passive: auto attacks give the owner a stack of wit's, each stack of wit's increases the owners MR by 2+ 1% total MR. Max of 6 stacks of Wit's stacks of wit's last for 6 seconds.

This would be a reasonable item mid and late game and keep it in the concept of what it has been since it lost the mana burn.

junglerboy16Nov 22, 20151 votes

Yeah, it probably is a bit unbalanced, and I like your idea a lot.

RebonackNov 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, it probably is a bit unbalanced, and I like your idea a lot.

Couldn't be worse than Rageblade is right now.

Irelia BotNov 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Couldn't be worse than Rageblade is right now.

actaully it could be on Warwick

114 on hit magic damage and 40 MR shred would make most any squishy dead from WW ult alone

RebonackNov 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EfXv3kxn,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-22T20:46:54.794+0000)

actaully it could be on Warwick

114 on hit magic damage and 40 MR shred would make most any squishy dead from WW ult alone

Wolfy is kind of a weird edge case simply because of how his Ult works. I'm honestly surprised Riot hasn't made him less of a stat-check champion yet.

Zair UmbrasNov 23, 20151 votes

570 damage! Since his R does 5 hits. At least it isn't DFG+Nashor's+Rabs. That was scary stuff.

xxxMadLionxxxNov 21, 20152 votes

It would be nice if they combined it with item 3115

junglerboy16Nov 21, 20152 votes

Ironically enough, they used to be the same item called Malady. It gave AP, AS, and Nashor's AP scaling on-hit while providing Wit's end's magic resist shred. It got removed from the game in patch 3.8.

The item was too niche, so they broke it into two components, Nashor's and Wit's. Nashor's serves as the AP-friendly AS item, and Wit's serves as the utility defense/offense item. Combining them together would probably be too strong again, and also not very well focused which would make it less appealing to many users but at the same time too strong on those who could take advantage of it.

facemelter710Nov 21, 20152 votes

Just make it build out of stinger. Instead of recurve. Give it 10% cdr and tenacity. And make it 275 more gold. Now that's a good item!

DealthNov 22, 20151 votes

Zephyr?

facemelter710Nov 23, 20151 votes

almost

RebonackNov 22, 20152 votes

Having a new Wit's upgrade with augmented MR shred really isn't that bad of an idea.

Back when Wit's first got the MR shred and Force of Nature got the axe most MR items were sitting right around 50. That meant the 25 shred on Wit's was actually pretty strong. But now the two core MR items have a whopping 70 magic resist, so a buffed Wit's upgrade to deal with that wouldn't be too terrible.

RebonackNov 23, 20152 votes

C'mon, Riot.

Give us some nice OnHit love (that isn't Rageblade).

ZeranaNov 21, 20151 votes

I think they should just do for item 3091 what they did for item 3085 . Just give it some crit and marksmen will pick it up over item 3087 when they have more ap on their team than usual. With games getting shorter, even if you intend on taking it as a marksmen to help, by the time you finish your core the game is over.

RebonackNov 21, 20158 votes

{quoted}

I think they should just do for what they did for . Just give it some crit and marksmen will pick it up over when they have more ap on their team than usual. With games getting shorter, even if you intend on taking it as a marksmen to help, by the time you finish your core the game is over.

That is a terrible idea.

Crit itemization is already head-and-shoulders above Fighter itemization. Fighters needs more attractive mixed offense/defense gear, not less.

VesarixxNov 21, 20152 votes

That would likely just make it more niche than it already is, it's sort of a weird item, adding lifesteal could make it appealing for champions that drain tank.

Irelia BotNov 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I think they should just do for what they did for . Just give it some crit and marksmen will pick it up over when they have more ap on their team than usual. With games getting shorter, even if you intend on taking it as a marksmen to help, by the time you finish your core the game is over.

Or make it build into a late game on hit item instead of giving marksmen another item when they can already get Mercurial Scimitar which scales better with crit while also having life steal.

But if we are being honest Wit's end has been dead outside of WW, Shen and Udyr since it got the MR shred with Malady's removal from the game. Malady was so bad that only teemo would ever get it. If you Wit's on on Kayle today you look silly when compared to other options that kayle has to pick from.

It in reality should be a fighter/assassin item instead of a marksmen item since that was what made it a item worth even sometimes rushing before Trinity on Irelia season 2.

The golden age of Wit's end was when it had a cost of 2000 to 2200 this seemed to change from patch to patch 42 on hit magic damage 30% attack speed 25 MR auto attacks increased MR by 5 stacking up to 4 times

Wit's was at it's best when it was like this. IT was fairly cheap and offered a fair amount for the price, effective on auto attackers who wanted to do mixed damage a but did not offer the most for an item slot making it an early to mid game item.

If it were to have stats like this again but build into something better much like Hexdrinker now builds into Maw, Wit's would get bought again by some champs who are not largely about magic damage already like WW Shen (with sunfire) and Udyr.

The MR shred part which in turn increased the price by a fair amount is a stat that is nearly useless for a lot of champs like Irelia who in realty now only has her E to do magic damage with in her kit compared to a while ago when her ult was also magic damage. That was however before wit's had MR shred on it.

Since Riot doesn't seme to wantto keep the 42 refference on wit's anymore it is gone sadly that does open it to being changed a fair amount and being more of a component item instead of what it always has been recurve bow (1000) + Null-Magic Mantle (450) + 450 = Wit's end 1900 30 on hit magic damage 30% attack speed 30 MR Unique passive: auto attacking gives the owner 5 MR for 5 seconds stacking up to 4 times

This would be within reason for being a stepping stone to a stronger item. This in turn could allow for more of a season 2 wit's end like item which fighters like Irelia, Jax and Xin would like and a MR shred option which champs like Kayle and teemo might approve of.

Just as examples of t hese items Wit's end (1900) + Raptos Cloak (1200) + 500 = Bruiser item make people rage (place holder name) 3600 42 armor 42 MR 42% attack speed Unique passive - Universal answer: 42 on hit magic damage Unique passive: auto attacks increase armor, MR and attack speed by 5 stacking up to 4 times. Unique Passive - point runner: While near a turret (standing or fallen) gain 20% movement speed over 2 seconds.

A MR shred item could be Wit's end (1900) + Aether Wisp (850) + 500 = MR shred OP (place holder name) 3250 42% attack speed 42 MR 42 AP 6% movement speed Unique passive - Universal answer: 42 on hit magic damage Unique passive: steals 5 MR from enemy champs on auto attack stacks up to 5 times for 5 seconds.

Both would have a reason to be picked fir really different reasons.

YumaS2AstralNov 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EfXv3kxn,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2015-11-21T22:29:41.711+0000)

Or make it build into a late game on hit item instead of giving marksmen another item when they can already get Mercurial Scimitar which scales better with crit while also having life steal.

But if we are being honest Wit's end has been dead outside of WW, Shen and Udyr sense it got the MR shred when Malady was removed from the game. Malady was so bad that only teemo would ever get it. If you get it on Kayle you look silly when compared to other options that kayle has to pick from.

It in reality should be a fighter/assassin item instead since that was what made it a item worth evne sometimes rushing before Trinity on Irelia season 2.

When it was 2000 to 2200 in cost with 42 on hit magic damage 30ish % attack speed 25 MR auto attacks increased MR by 5 stacking up to 4 times

Wit's was at it's best when it was like this. IT was fairly cheap and offered a fair amount for the price, effective on auto attackers who wanted to do mixed damage a but did not offer the most for an item slot making it an early to mid game item.

If it were to have stats like this again but build into something better much like Hexdrinker now builds into Maw, Wit's would get bought again by some champs who are not largly about magic damage already like WW Shen (with sunfire) and Udyr.

The MR shred part which in turn increased the price by a fair amount is a stat that is nearly useless for a lot of champs like Irelia who in realty now only has her E to do magic damage with in her kit compared to a while ago when her ult was also magic damage. That was however before wit's had MR shred on it.

Shyvana could also use Wit's End. I honestly still use Wit's End even after the nerfs, unless the enemy team has more than one tanky champion.

Sinister AnubisNov 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

For anyone who has been around for a while, Wit's End used to be a 2kish item that served as a nice mid-game rush for a lot of tanky-derps but it didn't steal magic resist. The new version was create which, while nice, is a bit too expensive to be a rush item, but not expensive enough to be a core offensive item.

So to that end, I propose splitting it.

Wit's End now builds out of and sits at 2k gold. It would still have the stacking MR buff, but it wouldn't steal resist.

A new item would be added that builds out of that grants much higher attack speed, stronger OnHit magic damage, and a significantly buffed Magic Resist stealing mechanic.

Thus, this new item would serve as a direct analog to Hexdrinker/Maw. A nice cost effective rush item with the option to upgrade into a more potent version of it later in the game.

Um no i am not ready to see udyr spammed again this would put him way over the top along with sated.... Just no.

RebonackNov 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Master Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EfXv3kxn,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-11-22T01:52:40.242+0000)

Um no i am not ready to see udyr spammed again this would put him way over the top along with sated.... Just no.

Sated is a degenerate item that makes properly balancing OnHit anything nearly impossible. I would be pretty shocked if it lasts much longer before getting the axe.

And as with all item changes, if it throws one or two champions out of skew then they get to eat targeted nerfs.

Sinister AnubisNov 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Sated is a degenerate item that makes properly balancing OnHit anything nearly impossible. I would be pretty shocked if it lasts much longer before getting the axe.

And as with all item changes, if it throws one or two champions out of skew then they get to eat targeted nerfs.

I doubt they would remove sated from the game just to add this item. I think wits end is a outdated item and should be removed my self.

RebonackNov 22, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Master Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EfXv3kxn,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-11-22T02:12:13.821+0000)

I doubt they would remove sated from the game just to add this item. I think wits end is a outdated item and should be removed my self.

No, Sated needs to be removed because it causes any potential future OnHit items to also be broken by proxy.

See: Jungle Jax with Rageblade.

If a single item causes all items that synergize with it to be effectively unbalancable, then that's a problem.

Sinister AnubisNov 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No, Sated needs to be removed because it causes any potential future OnHit items to also be broken by proxy.

See: Jungle Jax with Rageblade.

If a single item causes all items that synergize with it to be effectively unbalancable, then that's a problem.

I disagree with you sated has a place because it allows for carry junglers to be viable again. Why introduce a item that enhances on hit effects when we have plenty of on hit effects. My point is wits end is out dated and needs to be removed or reworked into something else. Its not even a shadow of what it was designed for back in season 1.

RebonackNov 22, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Master Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EfXv3kxn,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-22T04:20:37.711+0000)

I disagree with you sated has a place because it allows for carry junglers to be viable again. Why introduce a item that enhances on hit effects when we have plenty of on hit effects. My point is wits end is out dated and needs to be removed or reworked into something else. Its not even a shadow of what it was designed for back in season 1.

There are other ways to make Jungle carries viable in Solo without breaking OnHit itemization.
There are ways to improve OnHit itemization without breaking OnHit itemization.