Riot Maple, what's wrong with Jhin? Analysis inside

AnataBakka··15 votes·12,701 views

You said you're going to fix him, but he works the same as yi or any other champ.

Example: This is how Master Yi's E passive stacks with a full stacked guinsoo.

The 10% will give 25/244*base + 31/244*flat bonus Guinsoo will give 6/244*base + 66/244*flat bonus For a total of 31/244*base + 97/244*flat bonus

Full Math of what was done above:

Passivebonus = (10% * (base + flatbonus) + 24% * 10% * flatbonus) / (1 - 24% * 10%) Guinsoobonus = 24% * (passivebonus + flatbonus)

By checking this post which says that the stacking is bugged https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/87s9u6/rageblade_on_jhin_is_bugged_and_heres_the_proof/

You have 44% + 100% * 0.4 + (90+48) * 0.25 = 118.5%ad on passive

By replacing stuff in the equation above you get:

Passivebonus = 1.655953046 * base + 7347/3578 * flatbonus Guinsoobonus = 0.24 * (passivebonus + flatbonus)

Since in the example above Jhin had 165 flatbonus ad and 129 base ad he gets a total of 724.608161 bonus ad which summed with his flatbonus and base get 1018.61 total ad which is equal to the "bugged" result the guy had in his post.

So... are you going to make Jhin an exception because he synchronizes with this so well? Or are you going to do it for all champs? Master Yi, Rengar, Olaf, RIven, Nunu, Vladimir?

I posted the formula so you can check it yourself.

PS: Jhin also stacks additively with dragon, unlike other champions which stack recursively. I think they'll make guinsoo stack like it. At least they're making it consistent. But still sucks that other champs get more ad than him from dragon before his late game passive surpasses them. #Math

24 Comments

BlackOps6 votes

Yeah, to me its working at intended, just too well. I guess to riot "too well" is bugged.

FF12244 votes

Not necessarily. I'm sure it's "bugged" for yi too. Riot designers probably balanced around the raw numbers and the assumption that it wouldn't recursively increase on itself.

Basically it's "bugged" because it's not how the designer/balance team intended.

AnataBakka1 votes

i don't bealive that. there's a lot of stuff that stacks recursively so it's most likely intended, the easiest examples are the ap/ad multipliers, but there's also armor/mr, for example sejuani's passive with any other effect of armor/mr multiplication

SlampieceHawke2 votes

I ban Jhin every game for the time being unless my adc wants him. I remember the good old days, years ago when Draven felt like the hardest hitting ADC ( his highest crit in postgame stats would always be the highest). Yet why play Draven now when you can play a much higher range with some utility Jhin ? Last game I played against him, I saw a 3.8k crit as his highest crit in the post game stats... that feels bonkers. In my opinion, he's much safer to play, doesn't rely on snowball anywhere near as hard as draven, and still pumps out that kind of damage?

ScruffyScruffz4 votes

Thats cool but that isn't what this thread is about.

SlampieceHawke4 votes

I feel like it kinda touches upon this thread as it addresses how hard Jhin is able to abuse current rageblade??? which is touched upon in this thread??? Via how hard he hits with it? Should I make this anymore clear or throw in anymore "?" ????

Bløød Zerø3 votes

{quoted}

I ban Jhin every game for the time being unless my adc wants him. I remember the good old days, years ago when Draven felt like the hardest hitting ADC ( his highest crit in postgame stats would always be the highest). Yet why play Draven now when you can play a much higher range with some utility Jhin ? Last game I played against him, I saw a 3.8k crit as his highest crit in the post game stats... that feels bonkers. In my opinion, he's much safer to play, doesn't rely on snowball anywhere near as hard as draven, and still pumps out that kind of damage?

Yeah draven needs a tune up like I like the idea of him get glory stacks for catching axes and killing minions and then cash those in for gold, like it makes him snowball only tho and I get draven isn't meant for beginner players but even draven mains don't always get the kills in games to snowball. Like a morg or blitz stealing kills or jg ganks but doesn't let the adv get the kill. I feel as if instead of getting gold from the stacks what if he got bonus ad or bonus dmg to champs only on his autos like that would help him do lots of dmg not need as much snowball and make him more of an executioner. Plus like adding 100 range to his auto isn't bad but it isn't needed if they do the passive change. Also keep the passive part where if you die you lose stacks so it punishes you for playing like a fool and you won't be able to pump out as much dmg. I don't play a lot of driven but I see if he doesn't get early kills he can't do anything mistake as he is unable to snowball faster than the tanks and assassins. Any suggestions or ideas from others are welcomed so long as you don't flame me for not knowing draven.

NorwegianIcecube1 votes

"100 more auto" xD

A Pink Glaceon5 votes

There's alot wrong with this argument. First of, Draven has never had the hardest hitting crits, that has almost always belonged to Caitlyn and she still rivals Jhin to this day. Draven is an early game bully who has the best level 1 in the entire game, has consistent late game damage, and actually gets attack speed, letting him benefit more from stuff like lifesteal than Jhin.

now when you can play a much higher range with some utility

This has never been the case, they have equal auto attack ranges. Unless you're referring to spells, in which case Jhin's q is still very short range, his W does virtually no damage and is one of the easiest spells to miss, and his ulti deals no damage without lethality and against anyone with armor, not to mention Draven's ult is global.

In my opinion, he's much safer to play

Again that's just wrong. Jhin doesn't have an on demand movespeed buff, he'd need to stop to auto to deal that. Draven also has his E, a really useful self-peel tool. Jhin just has his traps and W, both of which have a long cast animation and are things you can much more easily avoid. Jhin is the least mobile AD in the game, Draven atleast has his w.

doesn't rely on snowball anywhere near as hard as draven

That's because Draven snowballs harder. There's a reason his passive exists and why they've nerfed it before. A Draven who gets ahead stays ahead, because he gets a load of extra gold ontop of snowballing so he has an item up on someone who'd be on equal KDA. Jhin has an awful mid game if he's building crit, which is the only good way to build him right now, where as Draven still provides good damage at most points in the game. Jhin is still much easier to catch when he's ahead because the only thing he has to save him is flash or if the enemy by some miracle steps on a trap. You can be 20/0 on Jhin but that someone relevant Rengar? He can still kill your ass the minute you leave your team, Draven has answers to that and can easily 1v1 anyone when ahead.

Tadiken1 votes

Draven is an early game bully who has the best level 1 in the entire game, has consistent late game damage, and actually gets attack speed, letting him benefit more from stuff like lifesteal than Jhin.

For adcs or all champs bc Braum and Bard both have better level 1s

18skeltor4 votes

Draven is an early game bully who has the best level 1 in the entire game

That is not true. Olaf has a better level 1. Fiora has a better level 1. Braum has a better level 1. Even if you just meant for ADCs, that may be true, but so what? He could be the best level 1 adc, but it might not matter too much depending on the lane matchup. Botlane is not a solo lane, it is a 2v2.

Unless you're referring to spells, in which case Jhin's q is still very short range, his W does virtually no damage and is one of the easiest spells to miss,

Jhin is a MUCH HIGHER RANGED champion than Draven for all botlane purposes. You clearly have NEVER played Draven based on EVERYTHING in your post. Everything your saying is so uninformed that if I had to guess, I would say your entire experience with Draven is from reading his wiki article. Jhin's Q BOUNCES and is a GOOD poke ability in lane. His W is a GREAT setup ability, most ADCs do not have such a strong CC ability in their kit. It allows Jhin's support to do whatever the hell he wants, it gives Jhin his movement speed bonus so he can attack without retaliation if he's not an idiot, allows him to hit the rest of his kit. To say that it doesn't do much damage is so naive. Pre 6, Draven's entire damage comes from his auto attacks, which he has a low range for. He is still a very strong laning champion, with his reset on his W, his E, and his passive which puts a lot of pressure on the enemy to not die to him. I can't discredit these facts. But for YOU to discredit Jhin's kit by saying all this horseshit out of context, like "Jhin's W is one of the easiest spells to miss" (ENTIRELY HORSESHIT!) is actually kind of sickening. Easiest spells to miss? Did you forget that we're talking about botlane, a lane where there are 2 CHAMPIONS!? Have you EVER played a game in this lane? Do you know how this works? You have a support champion, a champion that protects, or CCs, or engages. It is almost INVALUABLE to have an ADC with the power to root an enemy off of your spells. Jhin's W is almost IMPOSSIBLE to miss if your support has any sort of root, stun, disable. It's free.

In fact, through your entire post you consider these two champions as though they're in a fucking void, just 1 on 1. Rarely the case.

Draven has consistent late game damage

Draven is, by design, easily THE WORST LATE GAME ADC. Easily. His mobility is entirely movement speed based (and compared to Jhin's movement speed at that point, it is pathetic), his only peel is his E. He can't sit back in teamfights like Jhin can. He does not

actually get attack speed

A full build has 1 or 2 attack speed items at most. Usually 1. He relies entirely on his attack damage bonus from his Q, and builds mostly AD to synergize with the fact that his Q scales off AD. This makes him SHIT late game, as without attack speed and only having mortal reminder or lord dom's, he cannot shred tanks as effectively or quickly as any other adc. Jhin, on the other hand ACTUALLY GETS ATTACK SPEED. A meta full build for Jhin would include both rapid fire AND Guinsoos. Sure, it's converted to AD instead of actually being attack speed. But guess what, dude? It's done so at an INSANE RATIO, giving him an INSANE amount of bonus attack damage, which guess what? Is converted INTO even MORE AD on hit with Guinsoos! Oh wait, what's this? Guinsoo's also has a unique passive? What does it say, you might ask? Here: "Basic attacks grant 8% attack speed, 4% bonus AD, and 4% AP for 5 seconds, stacking up to 6 times, granting a maximum of 48% attack speed, 24% bonus AD, and 24% AP". Insane. So this means that Jhin is speeding across the map every auto attack, as well as getting an UNGODLY amount of amplified attack damage every hit. At 6 stacks, I'm certain that he can do over 1k damage autos to tanky boys (late game).

Again that's just wrong. Jhin doesn't have an on demand movespeed buff, he'd need to stop to auto to deal that.

This quote is in response to the FACT that Jhin is safer to play than Draven. I'm sure anyone who has played both champions and has a brain will tell you that Draven is by far less safe to play than Jhin. If you've read any of this post, you'll probably concede that. Does Draven get to stay 2 screens away helping his team root an enemy, and then hit them with all his ult shots? Hmm... Yeah. If you want to play safe on Jhin, you can still cs decently with your W, and Q. Draven just has to sit back and cry. Or use his ult. I haven't even mentioned Draven's passive. If you die with Draven's passive up, you lose most of your stacks.

FACT: Draven needs to be significantly ahead to function EFFECTIVELY. If he is even with the enemy ADC, he is BY DESIGN: BEHIND.

If Jhin is stepping up, he is even more defeneless than Draven. Draven has his E, his W. Sure. But why step up if you know you're in danger? There really isn't a good answer. For Draven, there might be.

Jhin just has his traps and W, both of which have a long cast animation and are things you can much more easily avoid (compared to Draven's E)

Incorrect. His W, used as it should be used, is undodgeable.

Jhin is the least mobile AD in the game, Draven atleast has his w.

As I've already mentioned, this is untrue once we get to late game. Ashe, Draven, Varus, they're all less mobile than Jhin late. Ashe is less mobile at all points in the game.

A Draven who gets ahead stays ahead

Incorrect. Draven is an easy target to CC and focus (unlike Jhin, for all intents and purposes) in teamfights. And like I've said, if Draven is only slightly ahead or equal, he is BEHIND.

More untrue points in the rest of your post, but I've already addressed them, so I see no point in writing more to respond.

The intent of this post was not to try and say that Draven is shit. He isn't. My point is that Jhin is an inherently imbalanced champion due to his passive, and when an item like Guinsoos is changed in the way that it was, it creates the perfect storm. It's not fun to have to take the L simply because the game was stalled long enough for Jhin to become God. Also, it made me very sad to see an uninformed idiot say these uninformed and idiotic things without any consequences or rebuttal.

Thanks

SlampieceHawke1 votes

Thank you for putting it more eloquently than I did. And I agree that Draven isn't shit. I merely see rageblade as the problem, but I guess I didn't make that clear and now every Jhin main is just circle jirk downvoting our message over here. Thanks again.

18skeltor1 votes

Most people are stubborn as fuck, if someone is faced with something that interferes with their preconceived belief, they're going to ignore it or discredit it until it's impossible for them to.

Gwynbleidd X1 votes

{quoted}

My point is that Jhin is an inherently imbalanced champion due to his passive

I would very much disagree with you on that. Any imbalances come from wrong stat tuning on Riots part if you ask me, his entire gameplay is about as perfectly balanced as it gets. People tend to forget that full crit and on-hit ADC's all easily reach the 2.5 AS cap (and with Lethal Tempo even surpass it, except for Jinx, who doesn't even need that to get to over 2.5), while (obviously depending on their targets armor and items) dishing out 900-1000 dmg crits or having ridiculous on-hit effects. Jhin inherently feels stronger because his damage per attack is insane, but DPS wise champions like Jinx, Sivir, Tristana, Twitch, Kog'Maw and even Varus are entirely reasonable to outdo him (also, on-hit ADCs are objectively stronger against tanks).

Jhin has incredibly well defined strengths and weaknesses, and his passive is a crucial part of both. Yes your attacks are very strong, but to really deal damage you need to hit your 4th shot, making you quite predictable. Also, you need to hit the backline with it. Using it on a tank means most of your damage can't threaten the enemies' backline for a few seconds, which is terrible for an ADC. I could write several paragraphs on how he's quite wonderfully designed, but alas, noone would read that, so I hope this helps you see that he is not inherently imbalanced.

EDIT: If anyone still thinks that way, please tell me, I would love to elaborate on his balancing.

NightWind423 votes

I agree with your message. I just wanna correct one thing:

Jhin is the least mobile AD in the game, Draven atleast has his w.

This is not true. Jhin at least benefits from a speed boost on his passive (so on all of his fourth shots, crits, and marked Ws). This is a luxury that other ADCs don't have, other ADCs who are the ones with the least mobility - Kog, Ashe and Varus. I would also consider MF, Twitch and Jinx to have less mobility than Jhin, also that is my opinion. MF only has out-of-combat movespeed, which is not what you usually refer to as mobility (you usually don't say that TF is mobile, for example), Twitch is about on the same level as Jhin but with different conditions, and so is Jinx (her passive movespeed boost is stronger than that of Jhin, but also harder to proc).

sKz Aaron D1 votes

Slight correction, MF's movespeed bonus isn't out-of-combat. It is up as long as she doesn't take damage. She can deal damage without losing it.

SHAlTAN2 votes

yeah buddy, jhin is way safer than draven because of axes. Axe placements are very telegraphed and any higher elo player can read his movements like the fucking jungle book. I genuinely disagree with your argument trying to play devils advocate to the extreme. Jhin's utility makes him easy to play in competitive and solo queue. Draven struggles in solo and competitive for the above reasons, and he has poor damage output vs tank/cc comps which are literally every comp that is strong right now. A 0 kill draven = no passive. You choose which adc is strong and which one is weak.

SkyFαll1 votes

Not (completetly) true. Draven's axe marks are way larger than they appear, making your movements only predictable to a certain degree. Draven doesn't struggle in soloQ at all, people just don't think he's worth the time and effort, especially pros since he's actually bad in competitive (as you said) and they're better off playing other things.

Also, Jhin may seem easy to play, and he probably is at first, but when you don't have the luxury of counterpicking him, he suffers from a lot of comps, since he lacks the tools to effectively kill tanks, which other immobile adcs have (Jinx's steroids, Kog and Varus' % damage).

The only problem with him right now is guinsoo's, but that's an item problem more than a champion one, Jhin is fine, guinsoo's is bullshit, it always has been, they've just amplified the champion pool that can use it tenfold.

ShiniXII2 votes

Draven doesn't struggle in soloQ at all, people just don't think he's worth the time and effort, especially pros since he's actually bad in competitive (as you said) and they're better off playing other things.

you are contradicting yourself in the same message.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=CLG Debt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EdclcKVn,comment-id=000100020003,timestamp=2018-04-05T02:46:42.360+0000)

Draven struggles in solo

Draven is literally the highest win rate AD champ in the game right now. Champ legit 50% squishy targets with one crit auto while he is 3/7 what are you smoking.

Volocaust1 votes

{quoted}

I ban Jhin every game for the time being unless my adc wants him. I remember the good old days, years ago when Draven felt like the hardest hitting ADC ( his highest crit in postgame stats would always be the highest). Yet why play Draven now when you can play a much higher range with some utility Jhin ? Last game I played against him, I saw a 3.8k crit as his highest crit in the post game stats... that feels bonkers. In my opinion, he's much safer to play, doesn't rely on snowball anywhere near as hard as draven, and still pumps out that kind of damage?

that is so damn irrelevant. I'd take vayne or twitch any day of the week over Jhin or Draven or Lucian or any other of these lane bully adcs that 50% of the time lose lane, 40% of the time get outscaled. So what if he crits hard, I can do 4500 dmg crits with Darius or Mundo, that doesn't mean its viable.

IonianMurderer2 votes

checks op.gg ADC winrates Draven 53,37% Jhin 47,64% Thinking On top of that,Jhin has the 124th lowest winrate, being down there with the likes of DrMundo and Garen . And what do I see when I scroll to the top, OH Draven being 12th place.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

It's not just on Jhin, it's most visible on Jhin. Repetoir said they were fixing the item, not just Jhin.

AnataBakka1 votes

until now riot maple said jhin was bugged, and i'm not sure repertoir said they're going to fix guinsoo, he said "with guinsoo" which means "jhin with guinsoo". He also said "it is certainly most pronounced on him".

Dragon acts the same way as guinsoo so i don't think they're going to fix guinsoo.

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