Artillery Mages Specifically Xerath

Alüe··43 votes·5,248 views

There's a few things I would like to take the time to discuss, this primarily focuses on the lack of support you have really given to Artillery mages. Primarily that you just target the toxic aspects without really supplementing them in any way. In the original xerath we could see you had made small buffs until you finally decided to scrap the whole concept as seen below.

Xerath was released upon Patch 1.0.0.126

  • (Patch Notes 1.0.0.142)
    Locus of Power magic penetration bonus increased to 16 / 22 / 28 / 34 / 40% from 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30% Mage Chains Missile speed increased to 2,100 from 1,700 Ability power ratio increased to 0.8 from 0.7

  • (Patch Notes 1.0.0.143) Reduced the delay between casting the spell and the impact to 0.5 seconds from 0.875 seconds.

  • Patch Notes (1.0.0.152) Base Movement Speed increased by 25

It is then Xerath is left alone for a while and is targeted with two nerfs in 4.14 and 4.15 (can post if needed) as individuals had started to take him as support. It wasn't until patch 4.2 that xerath had earned a complete overhaul and in your words at least...

"This rework isn’t driven by a concern for power levels. Instead, like a lot of our reworks, it’s focused on delivering a unique, cohesive champion theme. Xerath’s theme has always been the arcane sniper with huge damage potential. Give him time and the right target, and he can precisely pick off his victims. That said, with Xerath’s old kit, he had so much spell penetration and rapid-fire abilities that players would often just dump all of his damage on the nearest target. We believe his new kit delivers on a better champion fantasy."

Part of my issue resides in the scrapping of spell pen that was seen in Xerath's kit, primarily this is what made him that "arcane sniper with huge damage potential". Instead it was shortly removed and previous item slots that could have been used to build raw ap or defensive items had to be used for spell pen to remain competitive. Now I may receive hate for this in general, but to be honest you have to have some form of defense to remain viable. While additionally you have to find the perfect balance of having enough magic pen to do your specified role.

In most cases i find myself presented with 2 sometimes 3 build paths that i need to start immediately, the first being that x individual build some form of mr item 3155 or item 3001 are usually the two i encounter the most. The second issues resides in my mana efficiency. Yes I realize his passive comes in with a built in mana restoration, yet this is where sometimes the 3rd build path takes into effect. Due to champions such as Zed (if he builds item 3155), i'm required to try to fully utilize my passive, while having to use my abilities to farm from a distance (due to zoning). The issue with this is its requiring me to immediately have 3 items on hand to remain somewhat competitive in lane. This is not due to sheer skill either but by mechanics working against the individual.

Now I find that a rioter is not happy with the continous casting of spells? I can understand this point of view, but please supplement xerath with some built in magic pen like his old kit used to have. So i don't have 2-3 mechanics soon to be 3-4 working against me. As an xerath main i understand you thought the built in spell pen affected his kit in a negative way when individuals were close. Why not implement a system where if a target is x amount distance away from you a spell pen is added on for xerath's damage. This could be incorporated with his passive, as most champions now days have a dual passive, forcing xerath players... if they wish to utilize the spell pen to play from afar like a true artillery mage.

53 Comments

The Stoned Cuck9 votes

Really needs to be addressed I know some people thinking about this subject also.

Zenthon Prime7 votes

Xerath main here. Lack of support in items and masteries is destroying Xerath (and Ziggs). Built in magicpen based on range is actually a great idea, but might act as a band-aid for the other issues Xerath has.

Alüe1 votes

That's part of the issue, i was discussing with other xerath's on pbe and he just is no longer an appealing option. With the added effect we no longer have a strong source of mana regen, it forces us to focus on securing mana items for our first or first two items to even be considered viable. Throw in a item 3155 or some form of mr and we are already behind due to sheer mechanics. I don't find this type of gameplay to be exceptionally fun especially when its not due to another player just beating me.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Idk. I messed around a little bit with Xerath on pbe and found him to have little to no mana problems late game so that isn't a problem. His ult being semi global with 5 shots makes it so you can potentially clear all 3 lanes from mid so that is also another thing going for him.

What I still don't like about him is bullseye W is still the only ability that really feels rewarding to hit. Yeah E is nice, but your only real followup to the stun is a WQ (Q would probably hit anyway). The ult still feels really weak for how hard of a skillshot it is and is really only worth casting if they are simply out of range of Q since you need to hit 2 shots to even beat Q damage.

VentusDragoon1 votes

Well, Naturally, most champions don't have many problems at all late game. This is supplemented even more by Xerath's passive, even though he won't use it too much then.

As for his ult, it's supposed to be a new representation of "Oh, they're getting away / a fight is happening somewhat away from me, I can finish them off / help out from where I am." Being good at waveclear ults is something to do when your ult is disposable-- e.g. Lux and Ezreal, while Xerath's ult still has quite along cooldown. In addition, it's even worse considering that it's extremely projected and has the delay of Bard's ult for a quarter of the size. Unless the person is CC'd, they can literally just walk, not even including boots, just walk out of the zone of impact with literally no problem.

And as everyone says, his ult, at least the VFX, really needs to be redone. "Unleashing all of your arcane power" should not feel like you're dropping little raindrops on enemies.

Messaiga7 votes

I think part of Xerath's problem is he doesn't really fit his thematic. "Arcane Sniper" just doesn't fit with his story or his design concept. Xerath is supposed to be a being of raw, uncontrolled power, fettered only by the chains which hold him. And despite this, he really doesn't give the feeling of power that one would expect. His Q and W both appear to hit like trucks, but his E and R have quite disappointing VFX.

Whenever I think of ideas for Xerath I always think back to this image.
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/0/04/Magus_PCG.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110914232338

terkmc4 votes

I think it's less Arcane Sniper more Relentless Arcane Artillery Barraged that you can't hide from. But totally agree on the effect though. His R is the biggest offender

Messaiga8 votes

Not even his R that's a big problem. I do enjoy using his R, but it shouldn't be what defines his kit. You could easily change the VFX of his R and it would feel incredibly powerful (and appropriate). Range doesn't (and shouldn't) define Xerath, but it is a fitting trait on him. I think Xerath is defined by sheer power and destructive force, but his kit doesn't represent this properly. His Q and his W follow this pattern, but his E and his R just feel really insignificant, even if the damage they do (or the stun on his E) are important.

Imagine instead of the piddly water shots that can currently describe Xerath's R, a pillar of energy descends from the sky and leaves a crater on impact. That would feel powerful and satisfying, far better than his current R. And it would still be the exact same damage, same range, same AOE, same delay. No functional change other than VFX (and maybe sound to accompany it).

That said, I would enjoy some sense of the old concept of him (slow and steady vs release everything at once). Not sure how to accomplish that without removing his current passive (and thus removing the decision of getting into AA range of enemy champion or minion to sustain mana). His current passive is good for forcing interaction but isn't fun, so yeah.

Messaiga1 votes

Replying to myself. They changed his R's particle on PBE sometime within the past few days, looks fucking dope. Will edit in a short video later.

IxtaliKing4 votes

Why not implement a system where if a target is x amount distance away from you a spell pen is added on for xerath's damage.

This seems like a very good idea.

Grimztaa4 votes

The one thing Xerath bothers me the most is the LACK of visual on his R ... his W is more satisfying then that water drop of an ULT he has... so sad.

Zenthon Prime1 votes

It's mildly humorous that the ultimate ability of the strongest (lore-wise) mage in League is a few water balloons.

Stars Shaper1 votes

Wanna know something funny?

The current visual is a "placeholder" from when he was reworked years ago. The current animation was made for a test iteration when his R would modify his AAs in a rain of AoE blasts.

This might be the longest placeholder ever lived.

Pierce The Veal3 votes

I liked Xerath pre-rework, but decided not to buy him because of his rework.

Good job rito.

Stars Shaper2 votes

Thank you for writing a long and well done thread.

I've suffered a lot since the introduction of Keystones as a Xerath main because there is really none of them that fits his kit (don't even try to bring in TLD with the E-W-Q combo because that's a fancy gimmick worth only a bunch of damage from which the enemy can heal off in the time your CDs are back).

The changes made so far don't disturb me a lot by themselves (still have to make a proper idea of what the 5 shots on the ultimate will do) but I got really down as I checked Lux numbers (damag, mana costs, max mana, etc.) just to find out that she beats Xerath in every department expecially when I saw that there was nothing to make Xerath more powerful at range (at the cost fo being less effective on close range, I'd gladly accept that).

iMaB3AST2 votes

I have an idea for xerath's passive, see if you like it or not:

Ascendant's Wraith (or something) Xerath releases excess amounts of arcane power which can be used to cast abilities. At Maximum Power, Xerath's next basic (Q,W,E) ability is free of cost and will be used even if it is on cooldown. This kind of gives Xerath those moments where it truly shows how much raw power he has to offer. Imagine casting one ability back to back. It will be a new mechanic (with Rengar as an exception) in league that can separate Xerath from the rest of the mages. Giving him the potiental to stack/refresh stuns, slows or just damage against his enemies. Idk if its a good idea so you guys tell me what you think.

Llanite2 votes

Non-Xerath here.

Everyone has to deal with MR (or armor/health) and that's not a unique issue against Xerath and hence, not a valid excuse for Xerath to get unique buff.

Mana is expensive, as the only restrictive resource on artillery mages are mana, whilst everyone loses a fair amount of health AND mana as they trade.

Alüe7 votes

To be quite frank, that is the defining issue here. Mana is what is gimping them, without a strong source of mana regen. Artillery mages in general will need to build 1-2 mana pool items that wouldn't normally be in there kit. We shouldn't even discuss how long it takes to get the pool we desired with items like item 3003.

The reason why i even mentioned mr, was individuals in lane that select mr as their first product are gaining two things (damage and defense). This already causes a set back for the artillery mage player, as a subclass that relies heavily on mana. They are affected at least well in my opinion the heaviest. Going into lane, you can't make the decision to go down a route for that magic pen early. It honestly isn't there, you will find yourself in a rut where you can only cast a limited amount. This doesn't sound bad to some individuals, but the mana costs on artillery mages especially xerath are pretty extensive. Essentially this subjects you to the mechanics of the game and frankly not strategy or skill based.

Llanite1 votes

The most "defensive" an artillery has to build is Zhonya or Rylaj whilst other DPS has to get one mana and 2 AP/defense. They have to build defense, you have to build mana. Nothing is skewed against you.

If Riot one day decide to make your range the same as Annie's, your mana cost will be cut in half.

If your spells become single-target like Swain, Riot will give you more sustain.

You have range advantage, hence, less dmg and less resource to throw around, that's how balance works.

Alüe1 votes

Again artillery mages defining weakness, as stated by riot is mobility. Burst mages defining weakness is supposed to be long cd's. No where in any of these weaknesses do we see mana mitigation. There is a reason why almost all of artillery mages abilites are skill shots, to reflect it purely of skill. By enforcing "mana usage" the player is already at a disadvantage before the laning phase even begins. Especially against ad champions, this plagues more than artillery mages if you want to make the argument for it. However there are more defensive type purpose items for short/mid range mages than artillery. Not trying to make a case to make them untouchable gods, but they should at least fit the role riot defined for them. Currently they aren't and are at a disadvantage in lane before the game even begins.

Llanite1 votes

Mostly skillshot because most of them are AOE and have massive range.

Riot balances artillery around mana. Feel free to example ALL long-ranged mages. All of them have mana problem, because it will be zero risk- high reward otherwise. Mid-ranged/Melee champ "risk" is losing all their health and forced out of the fight. As an artillery, you don't lose health in combat, your "risk" is to lose all mana and forced out of the fight. To have unlimited mana is the same as asking mid-ranged/melee to have unlimited health.

Artillery is supposed to be weak in lane, but excel in skirmishes where AOE plays a larger role. You're asking to be good in both laning and teamfight, early, mid and late game, it's not possible, one has to make tradeoff.

Alüe1 votes

No need to example anymore, you aware of there defining issue mana, no where does riot define though they are supposed to be terrible in lane. I would love to see this quote by a rioter. Mana is what is causing them to be weak in lane and in early/mid-game team fights. You are trying to tell me this is what defines there weakness, there weakness by riots term is mobility... not mana. A defining weakness that riot is trying to slap onto mages as a whole. You can argue ad is strong early and ap outscales it late game, but that is not true either. Especially with the mobility and lifesteal that is given to most of these items.

Llanite1 votes

You're not outscaling anyone. You simply do AOE which hits multiple people, hence, more damage done. The only condition being many people staying at one place at the same time, which doesn't happen during laning.

Riot doesn't replay because you lack a case. Your inability to acknowledge obvious pattern is one of it. Please feel free to continue waiting for a Riot response.

Alüe1 votes

Your case would be more arguable if it wasn't for the plea that plenty of champions fall under the aoe aspect of damage, none more than mages of course. Yet you assume that there damage is supposed to be aoe mediocre damage, which falls under sustain mages more so than any other subclass. I don't believe you fully understand what sets and defines the three subclasses of mages. You have clearly mixed the three continously and have yet to supply ample evidence that riot intends artillery mages to be mana dependent. Rather that this is a new trend started by riot that is applied to the mage class as a whole.

Llanite1 votes

All Long-ranged AOE mages have terrible mana management, ok dmg, great range, no sustain.

Xerath Anivia Karthus Velkoz Veigar Azir Brand Lux Ezreal Heimerdinger Morgana Medium-ranged AOE mages have ok mana, ok dmg, ok range, little to no sustain. Annie AurelionSol Cassiopeia Malzahar Ahri Lissandra Orianna Medium-ranged single-target mages have ok mana, ok dmg, ok range, ok sustain. Vladimir Swain Kayle Fiddlesticks

Low-ranged AOE mages have ok mana, ok dmg, low range, great sustain - More likely to be classified as tanks. Amumu Chogath Malphite Low-ranged single-target mages have great mana, great dmg, low range, no sustain - Commonly known as assassin. Fizz Katarina Leblanc

Riot has been using these metric as general rule for ages, not "new trend".

To disprove my "proof" is fairly straight-forward, find me ONE ap mid (exclude support and AP autoattacker) whose original design fits into one category but has characteristics of another.

Alüe1 votes

Lux artillery/burst mage, Done

you have anvia, Azir , brand, heim and morg as artillery.. those are all listed as burst mages by riots definition. Dump there combo and walk away. Quite honestly there is a lot of confusion i'm noting on what you have listed... you have juggernauts, mixed with fighters and Guardian tanks.

I've taken the liberty and have actually thrown the link in to where riot has defined these champions weaknesses and strengths. How you missed the article they came out with defies me however. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses Please note that mana mitigation is not one of the defining weakness seen in mages or artillery mages.

LaserDeathBlade2 votes

Artillery mages not very fun for anyone

It might make more sense if they took him in the direction of Jhin where he has long range spells that segue to additional damage, but can't just stand 10 miles away and spam spells.

Alüe8 votes

They just don't seem very rewarding for how heavily they rely on skill shots or for how much we have to build it up.

Zenthon Prime5 votes

If it wasn't fun I wouldn't main them.

You live and die on your positioning and aim on Xerath. Overextend? Boom, dead. Miss a Q? Congrats, you wasted 125 mana and craptons of damage. Miss your ult? You wasted several seconds not firing Qs. This was amplified by the fact that until recently (read: before preseason) Xerath only had three truly unwinnable matchups IMO: Cho, Fizz and LB. Everything else could be won......if you were better than your opponent, sometimes significantly better. It's like mages in Fire Emblem, or ranged weapons in Monster Hunter: very strong, but all of that strength relies on your personal skill because there is no safety net behind you when you fail.

These champions have a pretty clear power fantasy, at least in my eyes: you're an untouchable, godlike carry if you play perfectly, but everyone on both teams knows that you're dead meat once you screw up or get outplayed. That pressure, that need to be skilled is what drives me on Xerath.

Aakesh2 votes

Xerath R update is more barrages

don't address the main problem that anyone and their mom can dodge em

They gave Ziggs more shitty tower hate instead of better quality of life

They made Annie's ult stronger but left her kit just as simple and brain dead as before

Riot must be drunk or something.

SB Arneeman2 votes

Xerath main here.

Xerath and Ziggs has been in a pretty bad spot lately, with the mobility meta and baron minions. When Frost Queens Claim was in its strongest spot, I had a great time, but now after the nerf I only do well because Xerath is a champion I play very well. With the new dash item and buffs to Vel'Koz(1600 true dmg ult lategame, wtf?) and Brand(20% hp damage passive that is aoe and can stack up in teamfights!) I dont think I'll play much Xerath anymore. Mana regen is also removed, but I don't know how strong the seraph's + morello + water dragon/blue buff combination will be. The biggest problem with his ult is that it's so easy to dodge, not that you don't have enough shots. Now that Jhin is played he doesn't have the longest range abilites anymore. Even though Xerath and Ziggs got buffs, I'm almost certain Vel'Koz and Brand will outclass them. The superior range doesn't help much when champions like Annie suddenly has a dash.

I feel like waveclear/poke mages are getting weaker every patch, and that Riot does this on purpose because they don't like it. They pretty much said that they hated Ziggs and didn't want him to be played.

I'll main Brand or Vel'koz after patch 6.9 for sure if these are the final changes.

Brand Velkoz > Xerath Ziggs

Nobuyoki2 votes

I honestly never understood why they reworked him. He had an oppressive gameplay due to his 100-0 combo, which was way too easier to do, but he wasn't even played that much at the time. And this instagib prob was due to the immense ammount of free pene he had on his w. His rework made me hate him, because it destroyed what was for me his identity : an immobile (litterally) mage, who could had a fuckin' broom in the ass in order to gain power. They could have just get rid of the free pene on W, put a passive pene based on distance, and they would have resolved the main prob imho. He just feels so meh right now, and don't tell me that his ult still kept his identity. It's just a bad designed finisher imho.

DEmperor952 votes

I agree. Xerath's damage for how high his mana costs are is very low, unless he is extremely far ahead to be able to build for both, and the enemy is not building MR.

Alüe1 votes

I just don't see how riot can justify (well because he has range) when in reality its so much more limiting xerath players. You have mana, magic pen, essentially basic stats! With the removal on mana regen, its just another item slot essential we will have to account for in our priority of making him viable in the current match.

Psychoneirik1 votes

What about adding an MR shred to his stun? The longer the stun travels the higher the MR reduction. Or similar to your passive's idea, what about giving Xerath extra magic pen when there are no enemy champions within X units from Xerath?

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I agree there; I miss the old xerath, at least he looked impressive to use and was unique to play, instead of another generic range mage.

Alüe1 votes

To me he was the defining individual, for what it mean to siege individuals under tower.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Indeed, his passive at least kept him from being instakilled by physical assassins; and he had some of the farthest reaching poke. I enjoyed him for that and his electric looking abilities, his rework just ruined the aesthetic look ontop of his playstyle for me.

Alüe1 votes

He definitely isn't the xerath we used to remember, however i can't say i don't like his rework. Perhaps in a new sense i enjoy being that ranged ap sniper from afar.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I don't mind his changed W & E, but his ult feels so lackluster; though it's both the clunky use & looks, my aim doesn't help either lol.

Ludovico1 votes

Ok now don´t kill me, but I see no traces of you playing the old Xerath. I´m guessing normal games only?


I was an old Xer main. Had over 200 ranked games in S3 with him, and used him to get lv 30 (so another 3-400 games there). After his rework, I only played him about 40 times till today.


Now my point is - that former shell of a champ does not need Mpen in his kit. He needs to return his stolen abilities (Varus Q, Elise E) and needs to get his own shit together again. W as a triple hit ultimate, lockdown back on his W, and one no-skillshot ability which can be triggered by landing a skillshot.

There was synergy in his old kit. The new one is just gambeling on a long range E to get the W+Q combo off. Thats it.

Alüe1 votes

Correct, never took the old xerath into ranked! i played ziggs and viktor well before him in ranked games.

BloodyTompon1 votes

Sounds like you want Xerath to be non-interactive for the opponents. Fun for you, not so fun for them. That's the reason his passive exists (and inflated mana costs): to force xerath out of safety For mana, Xerath has an in built mechanic, the improved Blue Buff and, if need be, the next items. Again, if you want to spec into something non-interactive you should be paying for it in damage. That's precisely what the item changes are for and they're fairly consistent with the design changes over the current season. The spell pen was removed because it made him target agnostic. He did close to true damage with a void staff, which removes a significant system of counter-play -MR. For this particular aspect it had little to do with opponents being close or not.

I'm skeptical that a rioter is unhappy with continuous casting of spells in general. The continuous casting of spells with no consequence for the caster and from relative safety, however, would be problematic, and that seems to me what you are desiring.

Alüe1 votes

Perhaps riot should redefine the subclass then, in teamfight potential. Artillery mages are either in two positions, surrounded by the team or far enough back they don't have to deal with an enemy. The error of throwing themselves in danger, due to their playstyle seems redicule. As the only subclass that really operates from the back lines, there weakness is mobility. More often than not when dived by players, it ends in death. Arguably, ahri or some of these other high mobility champions I feel are sometimes in a much better position. As someone had stated below it is all about the gameplay and how you position yourself.

Even though the majority of this post is highly concerned with the lack of build paths riot has really offered for artillery mages (yes doesn't come out right and say it). Individuals that build forms hexdrinker, is considered fair gameplay? How is an individual that gains 35mr and damage off an item. While artillery mages are struggling to keep there mana pools up. My point being, it is at this case it is no longer skill or stategy. Rather it is mechanics that are working against the individual.

Stars Shaper2 votes

What is the enemy interaction with Ziggs? Or even Lux since after level 6 she doesn't even need to AA you.

Zenthon Prime1 votes

Even with current mana regen items, including Athene's, Xerath will blow through his mana pool rather quickly if he just spams spells. He still needs AA procs throughout the game to keep firing.

I mean, I'm ok with Riot nerfing mana regen tools for Xerath if they gave him proper item and mastery support, but they haven't. They haven't even tried.

Z1081 votes

Xerath seems almost completely dysfunctional to me. The animation on his Q takes so long to get any distance that it seems like the target has enough time for a short nap before getting out of the way. Q is good for minions but nothing else. His ult has about the same damage as an auto attack for first half of the game and goes for about 2 auto attacks in late game and the aoe aspect is so tiny it's pointless. Why even bother? The real question on my mind regarding Xerath is what kind of drugs the developers were when they concocted the current version.

Alüe1 votes

Sadly i don't think this post will really gardener any attention from a rioter, i would just like a response on the direction they are planning with artillery mages.

Atmospherex1 votes

After a little more thinking I kind of wish they would have reworked Xerath's passive to work off his mana, due to him having some of the highest mana costs that I know of. I feel like the passive that is present is good but needs a second part.

Mana Surge would still restore mana off of basic attacks based on a % of his maximum mana.

Then to make it so that he gains a scaling percentage of damage for x amount for the total amount of mana he has or gains a flat set amount percentage of damage for the mana he has unspent.

Examples:

Increase Xerath's Damage by 1% (or X) for every 200 (or X) mana.

or

Increase Xerath's Damage by x%(lvl 1)/ x%(lvl 6)/ x%(lvl 11)/ x%(lvl 16)

These two options in my opinion would allow Xerath a healthy power curve to make him late game artillery mage but also gives him identity, as a being of "arcane energy" through the idea of having tons of mana. But those are just my thoughts.

Alüe1 votes

Comepletely agree, only reason why i suggested spell pen, is there is a lack of items that work well with his kit for end game other than void staff.

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