I do not have a problem with % HP True damage as a mechanic

Bârd··29 votes·1,450 views

The problem is in the execution.

Yes, I am talking about Fiora.

Lets look at the others.

Vayne has this as her main damage source, and her kit is centered around it. She shreds tanks and squishies alike, but because of that she makes sacrifices. Vayne has 550 range, with no spells that out-range her basic attack. Vayne has a weak early game (not Nasus level, but still bad), and due to her lack of waveclear/range she cannot stall out a game without people devoted to it. Vayne has no spells that deal significant damage: everything but condemn is a steroid, and condemn deals negligible damage.

Garen doesn't really need to give up much, simply because of how little it impacts his kit. He gave up a small thing; while the villain is low enough to be executed, EVERYONE is notified due to a subtle change to the villain icon.

Now, Fiora. What does she give up for her % HP damage? Well, she is (almost) fully melee, and that is all. She has high damage on multiple spells BESIDES her % HP true damage. She has high mobility from multiple spells. She is pretty fucking durable. Her utility, with two slows (one of them also slows attack speed and can potentially stun), is not half bad. She doesn't have to get to late game to do her shit. Oh, and unlike the other two, her % HP true damage scales with AD (At quite the ratio too).

% HP true damage is fine as a concept; but you have to make it either their main source of power or make it minor.

29 Comments

AlwaysByMySide21 votes

[{quoted}](name=The True Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ERUbXoLM,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-02-08T23:24:07.619+0000)

She has high damage on multiple spells BESIDES her % HP true damage.

This is not true. Her Q has poor base damage and pretty okay scaling. Her W has okay base damage and scales with a stat she doesn't build. Her E does no more damage than any other crit (and does less until its fully maxed).

She has high mobility from multiple spells.

Well, a single spell, but sure.

She is pretty fucking durable.

Due to an unintended build path. Fiora was not intended to build like a juggernaut.

Her utility, with two slows (one of them also slows attack speed and can potentially stun), is not half bad.

Yeah it's okay, much like how Vayne's utility with a knockback that can also stun is okay.

She doesn't have to get to late game to do her shit.

Does Vayne? Vayne's a mediocre pick right now, but when she was strong she came online pretty early.

Also, Fiora's early game is not particularly great. It's not as bad as Nasus', but her damage isn't particularly big, and she's squishy. A Wukong can chunk Fiora early game, and huge bullies like Pantheon in particular dominate her.

Oh, and unlike the other two, her % HP true damage scales with AD (At quite the ratio too).

True, but this is because her abilities don't do nearly as much damage as Garen's, nor does she build crit/AS or have as many steroids like Vayne does.

% HP true damage is fine as a concept; but you have to make it either their main source of power or make it minor.

It is her main source of power. Without % health true damage she does considerably less damage even if building full AD than, say, Tryndamere or Master Yi.

Fiora's only problem right now is that the tanky build is mitigating her weaknesses too much.

spavined1 votes

this man speaketh the truth!

The Governer2 votes

I completely agree with you. And besides,

He gave up a small thing; while the villain is low enough to be executed, EVERYONE is notified due to a subtle change to the villain icon.

This also holds true for Fiora (to some extent). You are always notified when Fiora is around (by the vital icon), and she has to play mini games with you in order to actually proc your vitals. She has to stay in correct positions while you, as her enemies, are also moving, in order to proc the correct vital at the right time, well, unless you are dumb enough to stand next to her while a vital faces directly towards her.

Fiora is overtuned mainly because the Jaggernaut build works for her, but her kit, in essence, is fine.

Retillin1 votes

Due to an unintended build path. Fiora was not intended to build like a juggernaut.

Well, isn't that the issue? It's fine if she is a squishy blowing up other squishies. But Riot hasn't seemed to really care that she is now a highly mobile juggernaut. And there in is the crux.

Zero Skill Tank8 votes

condemn deals negligible damage.

Um no, condemn deals crapton of damage if she lands a wallslam, it only seems negligible because Vaynes max it last. But back in the day when games were longer it was common cheese to max condemn for some free early kills to get you rollin.

YCitizenSnipsY8 votes

That awkward moment when almost basically everything you said about Vayne and why its an OK mechanic for her, pertains to Fiora as well.

Fiora is melee with no natural wave clear, and most of her damage comes from auto attacks.

I really don't know if you are helping or hurting you argument there, but I'm sure in predictable fashion you'll like reply to this with something along the lines of, "Well actually its a problem on Vayne as well."

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

Pretty this lol.

MunchCrunchLunch7 votes

her spells are basic attacks so she doesn't have any high damage spells.

Saianna2 votes

which means they proc vitals. Which in turn makes those little combos quite strong

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

well tthat means that its still her basic attacks. the vitals is just her passive.

Crett3 votes

Fiora's passive is strikingly nasty to me. It doesn't feel right at all because of the way it punishes any immobile champ

AwesomeChad3 votes

Yes, i completely agree with this. Fiora is the one champion that has no punishing qualities that make it harder for her to proc her passive. Some might counter this argument by saying "fiora has to be in position" but she has her low cld Q gap closer which also has a built-in mechanic to proc the passive if shes in range, not to mention most of her matchups will be melee range. She also gains bonus movement speed from procing the passive , allowing her to chase down the enemy and proc more passives. Fiora has an extremely good kit with very little weaknesses. She needs some type of change to her kit that enables "High risk, high reward".

Sassmast3r3 votes

Although I do agree that Fiora is an issue, I disagree on what you have to say about Vayne. Let's dissect these supposed "sacrifices" that Vayne makes:

"Vayne has 550 range, with no spells that out-range her basic attack"

Although none of Vayne's abilities TECHNICALLY give her more range, two of her abilities more or less give it to her. Her passive (which by the way is tripled [I believe] when her ultimate is activated) allows her to get closer to people when they're in range. That, in combination with the fact that her Q is literally a leap towards wherever the cursor is pointed to I would argue would be considered a range increase. But that's just my opinion.

"Vayne has a weak early game (not Nasus level, but still bad), and due to her lack of waveclear/range she cannot stall out a game without people devoted to it"

Technically, her kit could be considered "weak" early on in the sense that her waveclear is mediocre and her kit is oriented around her basic attacks (like it should be). However, this is my issue with her: There is so much self-peel in her kit that she becomes absolutely ludicrous to fight against. Let's start off with her Q, which is literally skillshot evasion (especially for those of us who have a really low ping in combination with good reactions). As if it isn't frustrating enough for her to be really low, be about to die by a skillshot, and then proceed to nonchalantly tumble out of the way, she's ALSO given an E that allows her to pick anyone she wants and force them back. So basically, any ganks are worthless unless with incredibly mobile people, or a big team coming in on her all at once. AND on top of ALL OF THAT, she can activate her ultimate and become INVISIBLE. Ugh, don't even get me started on this champion; Every facet of her kit is downright infuriating to deal with in virtually every instance.

"Vayne has no spells that deal significant damage: everything but condemn is a steroid, and condemn deals negligible damage."

This I can't honestly argue with, other than the fact that that's the whole point of her kit; shredding AA's. So you're totally right on this, she is reliant upon AA's and almost solely AA's for damage, unlike many other ADC's (with the exception of maybe Ashe if you want to call her Q an AA equivalent :P).

You see, my issue isn't %HP True Damage either; it's execution! I do agree that Fiora definitely needs some adjustments, better yet a second rework that doesn't make her this bitchy poke champion who runs up, procs her vital, runs away with unnecessary movement speed, and starts the cycle over, but Vayne is much too safe for the amount of %HP True Damage she does as well. Honestly, I don't know many other champions off the top of my head with %HP True Damage, but I have to say that the few I can think of are all done wrong.

TL;DR - Fiora is an issue, but so is Vayne, and as you can see Riot hasn't done shit with Vayne. Even though Fiora is just as much of an abomination as Vayne, it's not like Fiora marks the beginning of this sort of issue.

HandheldBrandon2 votes

You really undervalue how strong Vaynes early game is with the keystone masteries.

Thunderlords provides her a ton of extra burst to go along with her passive true damage.

She has great mobility, The best chasing passive and absolutely great self peel and a huge steroid in her ulti.

I never get that people always talk about how weak her early game is but they never seem to take into account what masteries like thunderlords have done for her.

SoMNia2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The True Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ERUbXoLM,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-02-08T23:24:07.619+0000)

Vayne has this as her main damage source

Well, first, this is simply not true. It's not even a quarter of her damage, even after resistances. Physical damage from BoRK and crits is still a majority of her damage in most cases.

As for Fiora, she doesn't have high damage on multiple spells. Her Q barely outscales her autoattack. Her E is literally an autoattack reset for two attacks, and locked in 50% crit that does reduced damage (until maxed). W damage is mediocre unless she builds AP, which...pfft. Who does that? So, high damage spells? Nope.

High mobility from multiple spells? Well, no. She has Q. It has a partial reset if it hits something. Her passive gives her movement speed, if she hits a vital. She is mobile only while in combat.

She's durable? Only if she builds it, and that comes at the cost of bonus AD she needs to do her thing.

Let's not forget the most important part when addressing her true damage. She only gets that true damage if she hits the vitals. Denying her access to those vitals makes her perform well below average in any role.

Nanuk Pihoqahiak1 votes

This. So much. When people complain about Vayne's true damage, it bothers me greatly that they'll talk about how overpowered it is as an ADC or Mage. Against any squishy target she'd need around 3-5 attacks to kill them. She's not proccing Silver Bolts enough to make that any form of significant damage, which means she only did 12 percent of your health as true damage.

Derfel2 votes

maybe it's cause you're not the brightest lamp in the bulb

Bârd5 votes

I am sorry, but that metaphor doesn't even make sense.

A. Lamps are not put inside of lightbulbs B. Lamps themselves are neither bright nor dim

Sire Hippington2 votes

I don't have a problem with % truedamage, but i think it's poorly executed on all 3 champs.

First of all, all you sad about fiora can be applied to vayne: Well, she is (almost) fully melee550 range, and that is all. She has high damage on multiple spells BESIDES her % HP true damage. Q hurts alot with the low cd, and E actually has a damn good basedamge if you nail it, but mostly she's an adc with a massivbe ad-steroid, her AAs hurt like hell She has high mobility from multiple spells. She is pretty fucking durablemobile, invisible and ranged. Her utility, with two slowsa knockback that also can stun, is not half bad. She doesn't have to get to late game to do her shit. Reaching 6 is enough to duel, 2 items is fine for teamfights Oh, and unlike the other two, her % HP true damage scales with ADAS (At quite the ratio too). And fiora has no waveclear either

http://champion.gg/champion/Fiora / http://champion.gg/champion/Vayne noth deal~ 20% of their damage as truedamage, so no, vayne diesn't have it as her main damage source unless you consider it as main damage source on fiora aswell.

The main problem with %truedamage is that is denys counterbuilt options. Which would be ok if it instead had counterplay, but is doesn't really have that on any of the 3. Fiora odes enough damage without it vs squishys, so she doesn't rely on it vs them, while tanky guys, the ones that actually suffer most from %truedamage, usually lack any tools to 'dance with her' and prevent vital procs, which gettens worse as there is no realy reward for dogeing it, the vital still stays and her next attack probably procs it. So vs Fiora the ones who could counterplay her vitals get killed anyway and aren't particularry impacted by %truedamage, and the ones who can't counterplay her would need to counterbuilt and thus get straight fucked by %truedamage.

Similar with vayne, needing 3 hits on the same target is a smalll constraint for a very mobile ranged champ with lots of as, and her phsyical AA damage is more than enough vs any squishys, so the ones with the tools to avoid her 3ed hit already get chuncked heavily by a single Q-crit, while tanks get shreded as they can't really avoid eating multiple AAs.

Garen's villian passive is just fuucked up aswell. It's rather random as you don't have much, if any, controll over it. And beeing the juggernaut he is, he has no free target acces but usually is stuck in the frontline, so if the villian is in the backline you get not much from it. However if an opoosing melee some how manages to get kills, he gets massively punished for it as melees hardly can avoid garen in a fight and his truedamage ult hurts a damn lot. Garens villian thing is one of the worst things to play against as it punishes you for doing well, and once again, he has a way easier time applying %truedamage vs tanks than vs squishy, while it hurts tanks(relatively speaking) way more.

To be hhonest, i'm not sure how how to implement %truedamage in a healthy way, as it requires a mechanic that allows good counterplay for sluggish melees

Sahn Uzal2 votes

Vayne needs to get 3 aa's off, Fiora just needs the RNG to favor her (wich it ALWAYS DOES) or press R and be guarenteed to get the true damage. Vayne can be annoying, Fiora is just total BS summoner 31

LVL 5 PORO1 votes

I would be fine with it ... if it was on someone like Varus instead of Vayne. Instead, they give the most powerful mechanic in the game to champions with already great kits. Fiora without %HP true damage would still be good because of her kit. However, when you give the most powerful and uncounterable mechanic in the game to champions who can stealth, dash, stun, block everything, and heal their entire team, we have a BIG problem.

It would be fine if Fiora actually suffered for having the most powerful mechanic in the game in her kit, but this is not the case. Vayne received a nerf so she is relatively balanced. But in terms of single ability power, Fiora's W is easily one of the top most broken and overpowered in the game. Right next to Tahm's devour. So not only does she get to have extremely powerful abilities, she gets %HP true damage as well.

That is not good or fair game design or balance.

Shadow Hazard1 votes

I think the issue with fiora is the sustain. Garen needs to be out of combat for his to be of use. Vayne has zero built in, so before she gets her items she is a pretty easy target. With fiora she will dash proc the vital, and the standard pattern when this was done in top lane was to deal damage back, but she will heal it right back meaning a for sure net loss for her opponent and none for her. Remove the healing and she will no longer be such a major threat to virtually everyone.

Audiomancy1 votes

Vayne's first item gives her life steal. She also has Doran's, though that is negligible until around 100+ AD.

Fiora's Vital heal (not her ult one) however is literally countered by standing near minions. Early game, just proccing a Vital leaves her in the middle of your wave. And since Vitals are the only sustain she has outside of her ult, she has to do that every time.

Shadow Hazard1 votes

That is negligible to her. Nobody just stands there to eat damage. Most logical reaction for champs is to damage her back, hence the term "trade" now you are taking minion aggro also. Still net loss.

Other option do nothing but farm, she will likely follow up with more damage and kill you. Nix that option.

Last option run away. Well now you just lost farm, she will be enjoying that level and gold advantage over you.

HoukagoFapTime1 votes

Vayne doesn't build Botrk anymore, at least in most cases. You usually rush Rapid Fire Cannon now. Botrk is way way way more situational.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Most Vayne's (should) build RFC first summoner 31

Squidblimp1 votes

Fiora can currently build tanky and still do lots of damage. Riot has stated that they are planning to nerf tank Fiora. Think Ekko. I bet they'll need base damages and buff scalings.

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