Remove LifeSteal/SpellVamp

Lynxonyx·Jul 17, 2015·3 votes·1,016 views

The game would be better without it. Abilities that heal are fine, the only item that should are pots/flask.

42 Comments

AbyssphereJul 17, 20153 votes

The amount of people in this thread who sound like they have never played the game is terrifying. If you guys seriously think ADCs are unkillable penta-machines that become gods the second they pick up a Vamp Scepter then you need to spend a lot more time playing. Like, I can't actually understand how anyone could get SUCH a positive view of ADC strength while thinking melee fighters are so incapable of doing anything? I'm not normally one to say stuff like this because it's just rude but that makes me think the people here play nothing but Aatrox and feed on him every game.

ADCs get the amount of safety they get because they need it. Fighters don't get it because they don't. They are balanced to be able to take care of themselves and unless they are particularly fed (at which point the support should prioritise keeping them alive anyway), they will never be the enemy's focus in teamfights.

Champs get the amount of safety they require. If ADCs have lifesteal it's because they need it.

(the funny thing is that half the melee champs in the game are far more reliant on lifesteal than ADCs ever have been)

JustMyBassCannonJul 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I can't actually understand how anyone could get SUCH a positive view of ADC strength while thinking melee fighters are so incapable of doing anything?

Vs AI games.

It's pretty easy in Vs AI to become an ADC monster, especially if you grab an early Occult.

Other than that, delusional people on the losing side of a good ADC.

Flying BuntcakeJul 17, 20152 votes

So basically made ADCs useless, and throw Vlad, Morde, and Aatrox into a tree shredder?

TehNACHOJul 17, 20151 votes

Test

Well that's fun to know that there's no apparently obvious notification if one edits their post.

Deep Terror NamiJul 17, 20153 votes

Mundo buys what he pleases.

CrossetteJul 17, 20151 votes

Morde=Mordekaiser, not Mundo.

Dr PoroJul 17, 20151 votes

Are you sure Morde and Mundo are not the same?

TehNACHOJul 18, 20151 votes

I dearly hope there wasn't an edit.

LynxonyxJul 17, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Flying Buntcake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPATBXHx,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-07-17T07:02:04.413+0000)

So basically made ADCs useless, and throw Vlad, Morde, and Aatrox into a tree shredder?

No, they have abilities that heal them... and yes, ADCs with their mobility and damage should not be able to heal to full from 10% hp by killing a few minions or a jungle camp as they are kiting... sorry.

Flying BuntcakeJul 17, 20152 votes

Vlad and aatrox heal very little by themselves. ADCs have counter play and don't need to be nerfed out of existence by removing life steal.

pripustasJul 17, 20151 votes

Please tell me what counter play does a good Vayne, Kalista, Tristana have? Because even assassins struggle killing them, as they can dodge and cc them.

Flying BuntcakeJul 17, 20151 votes

That my friend is why stuns exist.

pripustasJul 17, 20151 votes

Ok, so your solution to countering a DD with range, movement and cc, is to bring someone with hard cc, and a DD? You mean it's fair, that assassins who are built to kill squishies (they can't kill anyone else), can't kill them? Pls think before you write.

Flying BuntcakeJul 17, 20152 votes

Admit it that you have no idea how to fight Adcs. The rest of the world knows they have weaknesses.

pripustasJul 18, 20151 votes

Ok, so their weakness is finding them 2x1 with hard CC. Let me tell you something. Everyone has that weakness.

Flying BuntcakeJul 18, 20151 votes

or 1v1 with anyone slightly tanky that has cc

Only Play DariusJul 18, 20152 votes

Kalista is a problem and is widely hated by the community.

Tristana has tools to escape assassins, but 1v1 cannot really deal with them.

Vayne is very vulnerable to burst and has trouble responding to ambushes from assassins.

Flying BuntcakeJul 18, 20151 votes

Kalista is weak to cc and someone with a dash.

AbyssphereJul 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No, they have abilities that heal them... and yes, ADCs with their mobility and damage should not be able to heal to full from 10% hp by killing a few minions or a jungle camp as they are kiting... sorry.

...and what about the majority of ADCs that aren't mobile?

Ser GarlandJul 17, 20151 votes

ADCs do not have abilities that heal them.

insaiyanbaccaJul 17, 20151 votes

morde can heal himself with abilities? did i misread patch notes or something

LynxonyxJul 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Flying Buntcake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EPATBXHx,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-07-17T07:02:04.413+0000)

So basically made ADCs useless, and throw Vlad, Morde, and Aatrox into a tree shredder?

No, they should have to back to heal, and build defense like anyone else

pripustasJul 17, 20152 votes

Or just make it melee only :)

LynxonyxJul 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Or just make it melee only :)

This!

JustMyBassCannonJul 17, 20151 votes

Suddenly, an entire archetype of champions loses their only means of defense, and one mage goes and sits in the "worthless champions" corner until his health costs aren't self-murderous.

pripustasJul 17, 20151 votes

Mundo doesn't get his health refunded on Q, unless he kills with it. Aatrox doesn't get his health refunded at all. Cassiopea spamming skills and vamping off of them is just not balanced. So is Ranged ADC's. They don't even have to come close to the enemy or minions to heal. How's that fair?\

It would also solve the problem that melee's have, being absolutely destroyed in the laning phase by ranged champions, as they can abuse range, and with vamp there isn't really any counterplay. They get low-ish, they get under their turret and vamp back. Melee's get low, they have to back, as they won't get cs anyway.

JustMyBassCannonJul 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Mundo doesn't get his health refunded on Q, unless he kills with it.

Mundo doesn't buy Spell Vamp, and his kit has built-in healing to deal with his costs.

Aatrox doesn't get his health refunded at all.

Outside of his vamp W, which is bad because he's balanced around sustain items.

Cassiopea spamming skills and vamping off of them is just not balanced. So is Ranged ADC's. They don't even have to come close to the enemy or minions to heal. How's that fair?\

Because it's their only defense mechanism.

Their only means of defense is Lifesteal. They can't afford to put more than one item slot towards Armor/MR because of how dependent they are on offense scaling. On top of that, the only one they can reasonably build is MR, because there is no plain Armor+AD/AS/Crit item any more, and the one HP+AD item is inefficient for ranged champs.

Cassiopeia's different because she's a mage, which means she has access to all the AP defense items as well as Spell Vamp. Never mind that her damage output is ridiculous and she has CC to go with it. When a Marksman has CC, it's given prerequisites that make it either harder to use or less powerful. Cass has advantages that ADCs do not, so they get different treatment.

It would also solve the problem that melee's have, being absolutely destroyed in the laning phase by ranged champions, as they can abuse range, and with vamp there isn't really any counterplay. They get low-ish, they get under their turret and vamp back. Melee's get low, they have to back, as they won't get cs anyway.

That was a problem? I never noticed. Maybe it's because I work with my team when I'm melee vs ranged.

pripustasJul 17, 20151 votes

Yeah, I guess Range, Movement abilities (most of them),hard CC (most of them), and a support who's there to serve their every need is not enough of a defense. Melee champions have Movement abilities, and soft cc (most of them). Oh yeah, Ranged ADC are definitely inferior here.

JustMyBassCannonJul 17, 20151 votes

When literally the entire team, including the bruisers/MADCs need to protect ranged ADCs, even despite the fact that they have Lifesteal, there's really no question which one is more handicapped.

pripustasJul 17, 20151 votes

Yep, there really isn't. Take Tryndamere for eg. He rushes in, ults, and gets perma cc'd without doing anything. Take Kalista for eg. She kites from backline hitting multiple enemies, while dodging skillshots, and has team that protects her.

JustMyBassCannonJul 17, 20151 votes

I'm sorry, all I heard was, "Let's take a nerfed-to-shit melee carry whose only saving grace is his at-best-annoying ultimate and split-pushing, and compare him to one of the most recently-made ADCs. That's sure to be fair."

pripustasJul 18, 20151 votes

Ohh, she's a new champ. It's ok for her to be OP then.. How about Vayne then?

JustMyBassCannonJul 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ohh, she's a new champ. It's ok for her to be OP then..

No, it's not, "She's a new champ, it's ok if she's OP." It's, "Tryndamere has been nerfed until he became nearly worthless, it's okay if he can't compare to a strong champion."

But the fact that I had to spell that out for you just means you're going to pull something out of your ass...

How about Vayne then?

...like this.

The point of what I said is going beyond what you could comprehend. You've gone away from my initial point--that Marksmen need all of these things in order to function--to red herrings about a garbage melee champion not being able to measure up to strong marksmen.

Why don't you compare them to Yasuo? How about Sion? Riven? Vi? Jarvan? Pick any of the melees that actually wreck their shit on a consistent basis, I'll let you decide. Even Master Yi would have been a better choice to name.

pripustasJul 18, 20151 votes

I took Tryndamere, because he's the MADC I have played the most. Yi is more of an assassin these days really. Yasuo is a MADC/Fighter combination. Sion is a tank/bruiser, Riven is a Bruiser, Vi is a bruiser, J4 is a bruiser. MADC are champions who rely on auto attacks, as their main source of damage. What I'm getting at, is that RADC are too strong on their own, to have so much help in teamfights. Some aspect of them has to be gutted. It's just unfair, that there is a role in the game, designed solely for the purpose of their protection/enabling, while they are so strong on their own.

JustMyBassCannonJul 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I took Tryndamere, because he's the MADC I have played the most. Yi is more of an assassin these days really.

I didn't know that Yi's damage depended on dealing a burst and escaping the fight. Especially with three separate attack steroids--Double Strike, Wuju Style and Highlander. Two of which are attack speed scalars and do not affect his one damaging spell, Alpha Strike, at all.

Master Yi has always been sort of an assassin by design, that doesn't mean he's not a melee ADC. Twitch and Vayne are assassin-like Marksmen, they're still RADCs. Carry is not an archetype, it is a role set by the team. Why do you think the term "AP Carry" exists?

Yasuo is a MADC/Fighter combination.

So he is MADC. Dancing around it doesn't answer my question.

Sion is a tank/bruiser,

Tanky melee champion, originally designed as an ADC, but I'll let that one pass.

Riven is a Bruiser,

Did you just say that? With a straight face?

Vi is a bruiser,

Yes, but she's a carry bruiser, and she's AD-scaled, and she's melee.

J4 is a bruiser.

Also still a melee champion, AD-scaled that can carry his team.

MADC are champions who rely on auto attacks, as their main source of damage.

The only one I listed that doesn't truly rely on his basic attacks for damage is Sion, and he still does use them about as much as his spells. Everyone else deals most of their damage through attacks.

Yes, Riven included. Her passive makes her basic attacks scale 120-150% of her AD. The only spell that her basic attacks can't match/outscale is her ultimate, which is also her execution spell.

What I'm getting at, is that RADC are too strong on their own, to have so much help in teamfights. Some aspect of them has to be gutted. It's just unfair, that there is a role in the game, designed solely for the purpose of their protection/enabling, while they are so strong on their own.

And removing Lifesteal would hurt MADCs more than RADCs. It might even hurt bruisers more than RADCs. You would have to be extremely short-sighted to not notice just how bad it would get for them.

pripustasJul 19, 20151 votes

Yi has insane safety right now with that Q reset. Yasuo depends on his Q more than on his AA's. Riven depends on her skills waaaaay more than on AA's. Vi can't be built full AD. She won't be viable. And she uses her skills more than AA's. J4 uses his skills at least as much as AA's, and can't be built full AD in most cases.

You mistake "rely on auto attacks for damage" and "rely on auto attacks as the main source of damage" Riven's passive gives AA boost AFTER each ability. That makes her more reliant on abilities than AA's.

I never said that Riot should remove vr for melee's. Maybe nerf it a little, but not remove. But there is absolutely no reason to let RADC's vr at 500-700 range from minions between the fights. Melee's can't do that, without risking instant death.

JustMyBassCannonJul 19, 20151 votes

You are so far beyond wrong, I don't know if it's worth pointing out. You're grasping for straws, trying to tell me they don't count as ADCs, because their abilities help their damage output. Meanwhile, you ignore that EVERY SINGLE MARKSMAN depends on their abilities to increase their damage output. They have steroids that boost offensive stats, on-hit effects that deal bonus damage, CC to hold targets in range for longer, all of which are not directly attached to their basic attacks.

pripustasJul 20, 20151 votes

Sorry man, it's you who's wrong. I have a simple question. eg: Riven vs Riven. Both of equal skill, both have the same items/levels. One uses only AA's, one uses only Skills. Who will do the most damage? If you answer correctly, you will get it.

ZephyrDrakeJul 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Sorry man, it's you who's wrong. I have a simple question. eg: Riven vs Riven. Both of equal skill, both have the same items/levels. One uses only AA's, one uses only Skills. Who will do the most damage? If you answer correctly, you will get it.

this is the dumbest comparison i have ever seen that's like saying "these two champions are handicapped into using parts of their kit who will win?" but to answer your question, the Riven who only melees will destroy the Riven who only uses spells since you know... MOST OF RIVEN'S DAMAGE COMES FROM HER PASSIVE! which none have access to due to your great and wonderful "pre-requisites" is that the answer you were hoping for? also they cannot have the same skill. IF THEY DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE SAME SKILLSET!

JustMyBassCannonJul 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Sorry man, it's you who's wrong. I have a simple question. eg: Riven vs Riven. Both of equal skill, both have the same items/levels. One uses only AA's, one uses only Skills. Who will do the most damage? If you answer correctly, you will get it.

I'm not sorry, you're wrong. I have a counter-point.

Play Jinx without ranks in her Q. Play Vayne without ranks in her W. Play Ezreal without using his Q. Play Tristana without using her Q. Play Sivir without using her W. Play Draven without using his Q (good fucking luck). Play Kalista without using her E. Play Kog'maw without using his W. Play Lucian without using his E.

Pick any of them, I don't give a damn which one. Just try it, and tell me how ~~buttfucked~~ successful you are.

I'm not even telling you to not use their entire kits, just don't use what's core to their kit and see how severely screwed you become. Because that's exactly what you're giving in this Riven comparison; neither version is able to make use of her passive, which actually is the core of her damage.

7ha7guy777Jul 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It would also solve the problem that melee's have, being absolutely destroyed in the laning phase by ranged champions, as they can abuse range, and with vamp there isn't really any counterplay. They get low-ish, they get under their turret and vamp back. Melee's get low, they have to back, as they won't get cs anyway.

How would removing lifesteal help melee champions stay in lane? Melee champions can also buy lifesteal and heal off of minions.

pripustasJul 17, 20151 votes

Except they can't vs ranged champions. They still get hit under the turret, trying to get cs. Welcome to the melee world. Melee champions can outtrade in a longer fight, they would have a better chance when the enemy is 50% health, they would think twice about getting closer.