can we have some "buff corki/graves/lucian/ezreal" qq threads instead?
the problem isnt vayne, the problem is early game adcs are weak in the meta game
i mean, i quess we could nerf the only impactful adcs? jinx next?
people that hate bot lane meta (like me) would be thrilled. it would kill ADC meta. nerf vayne and cait has no reason to exist... neither get picked... fighter kill lane bot meta 2016 :)
Prospector Pete6 votesIt would be easier to nerf Vayne than to buff every single other ADC.
maikokk1 votesya it would be easier, and more efficient. fuck adcs
WarlockLaw7 votesNerfing Vayne will clearly complete along cycle of nerfing every single adc. Since the ashe rework I believe mf, Cait and that one change on ez are the only adc buffs we've had. If we continue to nerf adc's we will eventually remove them from the meta entirely
maikokk1 votesthis guy gets it
Penns1 votesTheres that adc rework thing coming anyway..
The Yetii Rider3 votesNerfing Vayne will clearly complete along cycle of nerfing every single adc. Since the ashe rework I believe mf, Cait and that one change on ez are the only adc buffs we've had. If we continue to nerf adc's we will eventually remove them from the meta entirely
Excellent. RNG based point and click glass cannon no warding...ugh. I'm totally fine with nerfing that role out of existence. And guess what? If we nerf both squishy supports (check) and ADCs out of existence, assassins will go too because there's no easily bursted high priority targets for them to kill! Everyone wins and we go tank, juggernaut, diver, tank support, long range Mage every game. Incoming 70% Lux win rate.
maikokk1 votesi, too, would like to play dota in the league client.
Anidan1 votesNo, DotA has squishy hard carries that like to crit, too. That change they proposed would make this game, in every sense of the word, worse than DotA could ever be.
maikokk1 votesthe viable hard carries that build crit in dota have kits that make them delete you immediately when fed, and usually run with 2 supports in a trilane because they are utterly useless early game... they are also situational picks ... not in half the games. i was only being half sarcastic with that comment because it actually irks me that you are required to run an ADC... but what irks me more is that the obligational adc has little impact these days.
howstheweather131 votesthe viable hard carries that build crit in dota have kits that make them delete you immediately when fed, and usually run with 2 supports in a trilane because they are utterly useless early game... they are also situational picks ... not in half the games. i was only being half sarcastic with that comment because it actually irks me that you are required to run an ADC... but what irks me more is that the obligational adc has little impact these days.
Sighs. Wave clear, your main tower pusher and oh your Damage Carry.
Axis the Dragon1 votesYour midlaner is usually your best waveclearer, though. xD
maikokk1 votestowers. literally the reason you need an adc. i feel super impactful (sigh) when i do my best to farm in safety and ks all game so i can take down towers really fast when my team wins a fight.
Anidan7 votesThat sounds beyond awful. You'd be killing two roles because you think the majority wants those two roles gone.
The Boards are not the majority of the playerbase, nor have they ever been.
Why do so many people think tanks ruling the landscape would make the game inherently superior than any other meta? It'd be just as stale as any other meta, it'd just take longer to do anything.
The Yetii Rider2 votesThat sounds beyond awful. You'd be killing two roles because you think the majority wants those two roles gone.
The Boards are not the majority of the playerbase, nor have they ever been.
Why do so many people think tanks ruling the landscape would make the game inherently superior than any other meta? It'd be just as stale as any other meta, it'd just take longer to do anything.
Yes. It would take longer. And the longer a game goes, the closer every champion's win rate gets to 50%, because it's more about player skill than about early snowballing. There are more chances to defend, to come back, to steal Baron or get a good team fight. Less games decided by ONE person being caught out of position, which is one reason people hate assassins so much.
maikokk2 votesgo play heroes of the storm if you want long boring games that hinge around chipping away at neutral objectives. im not even being sarcastic or dismissive here. if thats what you want, storm is a much better format
in your ideal world, removed from the ability for one super fed player to steamroll and solo carry a game into an early win... leagues system is just an inferior format. LOL has items... LOL has individualized experience scaling. this all exists to enable the individual as much as possible in a team game. to forge your own path. to catch that moron out of position so you can end the game...
if you don't have that, what you are left with looks like heroes of the storm. shared experience, no items... purely team-centric play based on neutral objectives. incredibly balanced games. excruciatingly balanced. so balanced i could claw my eyes out. why anyone would want to play such a balanced game boggles the mind. the less swing a game has... the less your individual contribution is relevant.
in a TEAM, this would make it more skill based, yes. but as a PLAYER in soloque, it introduces a ton of luck by merit of matchmaking.
if ADCs ceased to be dominant in the meta, the game would still hinge around a single player being caught out of position... see dota. VERY tank/mage/disabler dominated yet still VERY swingy
Tails Doll6 votesHow about nerf BoTRK. She was fine till they buffed it like 5 months ago. Hell on the patch notes they even said something like "Vayne main can thank us on this one."
Gati1 votesIf they nerf botrk then they'll need to buff other champs that rely on it but aren't OP with it, just nerf vayne or buff others adc's
howstheweather131 votes[{quoted}](name=Tails Doll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EKrfEirb,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-27T18:04:48.862+0000)
How about nerf BoTRK. She was fine till they buffed it like 5 months ago. Hell on the patch notes they even said something like "Vayne main can thank us on this one."
That's because prior to that they nerfed Bork into oblivion and even now it isn't half as strong as it used to be.
BottleCapster3 votesGuys, try to keep in mind we have a full on Marksmen update coming up soon, including changes to various marksmen champions and their itemization in general. Until we see those changes, we might as well keep Marksmen balance on the backburner, since its right next up to bat.
Gunnlaug2 votesWhat's wrong with you people?! Vayne is a perfectly balanced ADC!!! IF she's tearing you a new one, there's a good reason for it!
ViperFangs3 votesLooks like u play vayne a lot and don't want her to be nerfed
Gunnlaug1 votesLooks like u play vayne a lot and don't want her to be nerfed
If you don't play her, it's easy for you to say to nerf her. I lose games on vayne much like people lose games on any other champion! What's the problem here?
ViperFangs1 votesOh come on I totally destroyed vayne early game with Katarina late game 3 hit I was freckin destroyed like really 3 hits
maikokk2 voteswhy did vayne get a chance to hit you 3 times as katarina D:
ViperFangs1 votesI didn't got the time to go to her as I was killed
Jari1 votesThis is why these posts can't be taken seriously. You can only have an opinion on a champ if you never have played them and perform the feeding test (give the champ 30 kills and how much they destroy you.)
You play the champ, you're a defender not wanting your main to be nerfed
You don't play the champ, you magically know LCS mechanics on a champ and how broken they are.
Hint: When Urgot mid got played in LCS there were posts about how broken he was. URGOT!
maikokk3 voteswhile vayne IS a perfectly balanced adc, most of the rest are under-powered so....
alfavhunter1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Claw Kid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EKrfEirb,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-27T16:25:16.345+0000)
What's wrong with you people?! Vayne is a perfectly balanced ADC!!! IF she's tearing you a new one, there's a good reason for it!
Ya the reason is she reached late game with 1 item...BotRK
TurquoiseYoshi1 votesVayne mains, amirite?
But seriously, mains shouldn't get to talk about their champion's balance. Is Gnar (my main) OP? ...Probably. Do I want him nerfed? Hell no. Would I argue against nerfs? Probably.
manbearswine2 votesYou do realize that aside from lucian,everyone here actually got more net buffs than nerfs right(at least in the past two years).
Corki got his mana costs changed and his q turned into a skillshot,which overall made him stronger,yes he was nerfed later,but he still remained stronger overall. Graves got some nerfs...following buffs which were bigger than his nerfs. Ezreal has been consistently getting buffed. Mf buffs,draven buffs,kogmaw more buffs than nerfs,varus buffs,ashe more buffs than nerfs,this is all bullshit,other adcs have been getting stronger,not weaker(aside from some exceptions like sivir,who has been a very serious competitive pick for a while,or jinx for her solo q domination,or lucian).
If anything buff poke supports,you know,the other bullies of bot lane,those which went from bad to worse lately.
maikokk1 votesits more that adc's as a class haven't caught up to the power creep yet. since itemization is so huge and all. vayne is immune to this effect because of her synergy with the currently OP bork. jinx is a hard carry that also happens to be loaded with tons of fallback patterns ashe and cait are also viable because they are somewhat safe
manbearswine1 votesits more that adc's as a class haven't caught up to the power creep yet.
What do you even mean by that?
since itemization is so huge and all.
Weren't the armor itemization nerfs good for them,but even if so,wouldn't falling off due to subpar itemization be solved by improved itemization? How does this support your point that other adcs need buffs?
vayne is immune to this effect because of her synergy with the currently OP bork. jinx is a hard carry that also happens to be loaded with tons of fallback patterns
I don't think that's it,jinx is just more aoe than most adcs,and people in solo q tend to group more than they should.
ashe and cait are also viable because they are somewhat safe
I really wouldn't call ashe safe,besides tristana is more noteworthy than everyone here.
But point remains that if anything adcs need itemization buffs,could also be aruged they need more diversity,but sure as hell not champion specific buffs (aside from those who have fallen behind),but honestly I'd say the vayne domination is tied most of all(I mean let's face it,draven has received nothing but buffs,if all that was needed was an adc bully then draven should have been more prevalent) to the fact poke supports have pretty much completely died off,and it's very easy for vayne to survive against a tank,considering she has so much disengage,spammable mobility to avoid initiation and tank shred.
ViperFangs1 votesI totally agree with u in early game I destroyed vayne with Katarina and in late game she was the reason we lost I died respawned she was standing out of my base regen section I came out 3 hit I died again what is that rito
Radio Renegade1 votesLate game hyper carry. That's Vayne's nitch lol....
MealReadytoEat1 votes[{quoted}](name=Radio Renegade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EKrfEirb,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-09-27T16:42:30.470+0000)
Late game hyper carry. That's Vayne's nitch lol....
Thats not her Niche right now, its all game carry - she's the strongest one item ADC, and her lanning phase prior to Bork is better than many regardless - certainly one of the safest.
Radio Renegade1 votesA good majority of people don't know how to play against Vayne. You can't stand up against a wall and say "Vayne op" when you clearly made it easy for her to kill you. Vayne is strong right now but I've also noticed a lot of people don't play correctly against her. Put simply they're either too aggro at the worst times or not aggro at the right times.
MealReadytoEat1 votes[{quoted}](name=Radio Renegade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EKrfEirb,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-28T22:52:38.669+0000)
A good majority of people don't know how to play against Vayne. You can't stand up against a wall and say "Vayne op" when you clearly made it easy for her to kill you. Vayne is strong right now but I've also noticed a lot of people don't play correctly against her. Put simply they're either too aggro at the worst times or not aggro at the right times.
How can you say the good majority of people don't know how to play against the second most played Champion? I mean, sure you can state some degree of counterplay on her kit, but I can promise people know how to play against Vayne better than at least 90% of the of the champion pool.
Simply put, Vayne is the the most overpowered (or at least close) of the most played champion role in the game.
Radio Renegade1 votesI agree with this. The reason is because Vayne has a certain nitch (duelist ADC) so if you were to buff other ADC's then the enemy support and ADC would be able to kill Vayne easier. However, I see that a lot of people in this meta think that they HAVE to pick Cait against Vayne. This is not true. I've been using Twitch and I find he is good against Vayne (depending on the support matchup too) in a lot of situations. I've also noticed that people aren't playing the champions that shutdown Vayne easily.
YumaS2Astral1 votes[{quoted}](name=Radio Renegade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EKrfEirb,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-09-27T16:41:01.489+0000)
I agree with this. The reason is because Vayne has a certain nitch (duelist ADC) so if you were to buff other ADC's then the enemy support and ADC would be able to kill Vayne easier. However, I see that a lot of people in this meta think that they HAVE to pick Cait against Vayne. This is not true. I've been using Twitch and I find he is good against Vayne (depending on the support matchup too) in a lot of situations. I've also noticed that people aren't playing the champions that shutdown Vayne easily.
I don't play ADC, though I know some champions in other lanes that can destroy Vayne's gameplay during teamfights.
For example, Ryze used to be one of the best counters to Vayne because he could just point-click dodge her and he could build Frozen Heart, essentially shutting down Vayne for the rest of match.
Then they reworked Ryze and I lost my main way to deal with her.
BlackEyesBlue1 votesI'm with TC on this one.
ADC was the first roll I learned, and as I learned the game, I realized just how weak so many were...
I was a Vayne hater once, Then after the juggernaut patch, I got so sick of tanky brawlers bowling over my team that I went out of my way to get good with her. :P
Even now that the juggs are declining, I still have trouble carrying with any ADC other then Vayne and Jinx!
Hopefully the marksman re-work will address this issue.
ThePartyLeader1 votesLife steal I would think would be the better thing to balance.
Gati1 votesTbh she does need a nerf, remove the flat dmg from her W now she does her job at still destroying tanks while not burning through squishes
RawrAturtle1 votesThey should buff Vayne. Then gut her next patch so she can be unplayable.
Shadow Gilgamesh1 votesWeren't early game ADCs nerfed because any early game ADC + 
or 
was basically an instant win? because every engage ended with a kill, blown summoners spells (flash on whoever got hit, sometimes exhaust or heal too) or at the very least being put so low you had to recall or spend a minute zoned away from the minions to heal?
We could buff them, but I don't think that'd really fix any problems.
maikokk2 voteswith level 6 toplaners teleporting into level 4 bot lanes, i really dont see this as a game breaking issue. even when early game adcs dominated bot lane it was a tradeoff scenario. those same supports you listed could be used to aid a hyperscaling adc into the midgame where they could snowball and later dominate those picks... now those early picks are so weak that its not even a tradeoff. you just picked the wrong champ if you didnt pick a hypercarry.
Biontalez1 votesim main adc myself and tbh when i lane against a vayne if i dnt shut her down with a minimum of 3 kills in lane before she get BOTRK then at this moment i realize that i got fuked up not to mention in solo que if you are having shit team mates who just fed her a kill or two then the snowballing on that thing is just out of hands but from my point of view i prefer other adc's getting the buffs cause they really need to stand up for their name and carry rather than playing a jinx or a vayne its kinda boring lane now
ninjaIRL 1 votesI think ADCs used to be most impactful late game and it should be that way.
Lady Hammerlock1 votesalmost every fucking bot lane bullies vayne
i guess
i didn't include twitch and kog'maw is because they have a similar problem as vayne of having a terrible early game
