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Rework mana regen rather than nerf it

Meserion··5 votes·803 views

This may seem a bit late, but it may be more relevant if the mage update causes mass ragequiting because of mana changes.

You want mages to not have endless mana? ok, that can be arranged but we need to be able to also remain competitive. Flat out nerfing mana regen will destroy so many mages who have to harass, and trade in lane vs. champs like Zed and Katarina. You want us to worry about mana, well we sorta do early game, but we try to "fix" that problem so we can focus on more important things like objectives, map control, and teamfights. Having to contend with mana just stinks, limiting our options is bogus. We can either be super passive like Soraka lanes and Sona lanes, or you can give us a compelling mana regeneration system.

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My proposal is that you change mana regeneration to work kind of like World of Warcraft's where taking damage, casting abilities on and basic attacking enemy champions, neutral minions and monsters, and towers would halt mana regeneration. Mana would not start regen'ing until 10 seconds have passed where you have done none of the above. Mana regeneration would actually be 2-3 times faster than what it is now baseline, so a player doesn't have to wait 5 minutes to recover their mana, and can get back into the fight.

For added flavor summoner spells like summoner 13 would be reworked, Clarity would now passively give the user 50% mana regeneration in combat, and would work on two charges with a 2 minute cooldown that immediately triggers mana regeneration when casted on a targeted ally. This would make this a good choice for supports or even ADCs if they are playing someone like Jhin or Graves.

This effect would be applied to all mana-based champions, and would allow you to remove mana regen from items without screwing every mana champion in the game, it would also make flat mana a good option too. I would leave Veigar passive alone as it is unique to him and would work in combat, making him, a unique case. I think this would be a fun alternative to infinite mana builds that we have today.

Thoughts? Comments? PG-13 por favore!

EDIT: Comments = improvements

11 Comments

alfavhunter4 votes

15 seconds it a bit to long

Lower it to 8 and I could see this working

Erockandroll2 votes

I'm not sure if passive regen while out of combat is the right way to actually balance the problem that infinite mana actually imposes. Mainly in the form of Siege mages who are already on the back line and can disengage pretty much on the fly.

However, Riot deciding to throw the %mana regen passive that was on Grail onto the new Morrelo's, does create a means for mages to actually restore their mana in a way that isn't just a "Play passive" mechanic.

And on top of that, we are also getting buffs to blue buff, as well as water dragon. (at least I think it was water) so it's not as if regen is completely absent, from the environment.

Meserion1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure if passive regen while out of combat is the right way to actually balance the problem that infinite mana actually imposes. Mainly in the form of Siege mages who are already on the back line and can disengage pretty much on the fly.

However, Riot deciding to throw the %mana regen passive that was on Grail onto the new Morrelo's, does create a means for mages to actually restore their mana in a way that isn't just a "Play passive" mechanic.

And on top of that, we are also getting buffs to blue buff, as well as water dragon. (at least I think it was water) so it's not as if regen is completely absent, from the environment.

Ok, but having to always buy item 3165 or relying on map control objectives ( which appear to be RNG-based) is not ideal. There should be multiple build options, not just 1 semi viable mage item to build. My proposal is about giving mana-users a baseline option to recover in lane without having to risk a tower to recover mana. In this case you could build what works for your champion, not rush 1 item or, god forbid, support items like item 3301 or item 3092 to keep your mana flowing. Riot is correct in saying "we should be worrying about mana" but just flat out nerfing regeneration is not the answer.

Erockandroll2 votes

{quoted}

Ok, but having to always buy item 3165 or relying on map control objectives ( which appear to be RNG-based) is not ideal. There should be multiple build options, not just 1 semi viable mage item to build. My proposal is about giving mana-users a baseline option to recover in lane without having to risk a tower to recover mana. In this case you could build what works for your champion, not rush 1 item or, god forbid, support items like item 3301 or item 3092 to keep your mana flowing. Riot is correct in saying "we should be worrying about mana" but just flat out nerfing regeneration is not the answer.

Water dragon may be RNG but Blue buff isn't. And you should be focused on controlling that objective throughout the game. Also, why should there be more than one item. I mean, if your a tank, you really only have Wormargs if you want your HP sustain. (Unless your either Garen or Mundo) Such a benefit should be fairly unique.

lastly, Riot want's us to risk tower. Especially when it comes to siege mages, who can perform that level of waveclear from a safe distance. Mana regen should not be used as a stall tactic.

Meserion1 votes

{quoted}

Water dragon may be RNG but Blue buff isn't. And you should be focused on controlling that objective throughout the game. Also, why should there be more than one item. I mean, if your a tank, you really only have Wormargs if you want your HP sustain. (Unless your either Garen or Mundo) Such a benefit should be fairly unique.

lastly, Riot want's us to risk tower. Especially when it comes to siege mages, who can perform that level of waveclear from a safe distance. Mana regen should not be used as a stall tactic.

Only 1 player can have a blue buff, and that is the jungler's minion first. So having blue buff all the time is a unreasonable request. Here is the thing about item 3083, you need about 1000 extra hp (aside from base hp and Warmogs itself) to trigger the passive, that is atleast 1 other item, maybe two. So saying it is the only hp regen item, is false since it require atleast 1 other hp item to start working effectively. So if mages are risking towers all the time, what are Marksman in mid doing? or how about energy champions like Zed and Akali? Or resourceless champions like Yasuo or Katarina ? So because we use mana we're getting punished by auto-losing a tower vs. Assassins mostly and all ADCs. No, we should be able to stay in lane and seige. Seiging should not be constant, yes, but it should not prevent us from doing anything else. Really Siege mages like Ziggs needs a cd nerf if it is really a problem or a mana nerf similar to Kassadin's ult where it costs more from each consecutive cast.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Water dragon may be RNG but Blue buff isn't. And you should be focused on controlling that objective throughout the game.

Why should you be focused on controlling blue buff instead of red buff? And why should mage kits be balanced around always having and needing blue buff? Other champion classes aren't reliant on a neutral minion in order to reach their maximum power. Even red buff isn't essential for any ADC--it's just a nice little bonus.

It seems like Riot wants mages to be hard-gated by mana in a way that no other classes are, and they haven't really explained why, except to say that artillery mages spamming without consequence could be dangerous. Fine, but not all mages are Xerath or Lux.

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEtWrjBF,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2016-04-21T16:49:04.954+0000)

Why should you be focused on controlling blue buff instead of red buff? And why should mage kits be balanced around always having and needing blue buff? Other champion classes aren't reliant on a neutral minion in order to reach their maximum power. Even red buff isn't essential for any ADC--it's just a nice little bonus.

It seems like Riot wants mages to be hard-gated by mana in a way that no other classes are, and they haven't really explained why, except to say that artillery mages spamming without consequence could be dangerous. Fine, but not all mages are Xerath or Lux.

You can basically thank the pro scene for that. They bloody abuse the regen blue buff gives them. Which is why riot felt compeled to work around that. The only other option would be to completely rework Blue into something else entirely. and yet, there is merit in gating champs, around objectives.

As to the second part of your question. Spell spaming really was the main (if not only) reason to gate them. However, Utility mages can still get a lot of benefit from Athenes, which still maintains it's Mana regen. The idea was to permit utility mages to spell spam, because they didn't lead to stall tactics that a siege mage could accomplish.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Well, they reworked Devourer so I don't see why they can't rework blue if it's really that necessary. It looks like they're already trying out a few new things (in PBE, blue and red are 120 seconds on first clear, 90 seconds every clear after, which should help hard first-clear junglers). It seems like a really big design flaw if one class of champions (mages) is forced into taking a buff to cover a weakness (mana regen), while another class (ADCs) has the luxury of taking or yielding a buff that adds to their strength (manaless auto-attacks).

Spell spamming isn't inherently a problem. The fact that Kennen, Kat, or Rumble can spam abilities whenever they're up hasn't made them oppressive to lane against, while Vlad's Q and Azir's soldier attacks can be oppressive in the right hands. It completely depends on what type of spell is being spammed. But by removing any good mana regen options for non-supports, it seems like Riot doesn't acknowledge this and is treating all mages as though their spells are CC, long-range burst.

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEtWrjBF,comment-id=000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-04-21T17:30:49.263+0000)

Spell spamming isn't inherently a problem. The fact that Kennen, Kat, or Rumble can spam abilities whenever they're up hasn't made them oppressive to lane against, while Vlad's Q and Azir's soldier attacks can be oppressive in the right hands. It completely depends on what type of spell is being spammed. But by removing any good mana regen options for non-supports, it seems like Riot doesn't acknowledge this and is treating all mages as though their spells are CC, long-range burst.

While that's true to a point. the champs you've listed don't really have the unhealthy play patterns that should otherwise be mana gated. Kennin does not have copious amounts of wave clear, and neither does kat, and all three of them are close range, so they would pretty much always risk themselves to wave clear.

And to say that those patterns are problematic on siege mages, doesn't necessarily mean that they arn't a problem with burst mages. The relation ship is purely between damage, and regen, and that's where riot is trying to make the disconnect.

ARoninInDisgrace1 votes

Honestly, I haven't like the way they've done Mana, or Magic in general, in any game really. I think Magic should actually regenerate faster. Yes skills should be spammable (not in the sense they all have low cooldowns). Every champ that untilizes Mana should be constantly generating Mana. It should work more like a heatsink. Your lower cost skills can be cast as often as you want relative to your cooldowns. Malphite's W? every (14?) seconds, go for it, but cool down items should still be available, his basic will allow him to constantly spam W with out ever running out, but now say his Q, well you might get 3 or maybe 4 off before you deplete and simply don't have the manna (at his base level one) Push too much you end up losing your abilities until your pool regens fully. This is how I feel mana should be. Magic is suppossed to be energy, drawing magic is about generating it. The wielder should basically already be a mana generator. and a good one too. (These are suppossed to be epic legends anyways) There would be two ways to increase your ability to use you abilities, one Mana pool depth. The amount of mana you have at one time (like the charge of a battery), and you Regen speed (which would kinda be like how fast your generator can charge your batteries.) Mana would be more focused howmush time do I have until I have to pull back and rest? Idk I think this would make a better alternative to having a bucket (a finite amount) of mana and having to always refill it.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

So make it more like out-of-combat energy? I'd say that defeats the purpose of mana as a gate, but honestly I think that's needed when you have resourceless and energy champions running rampant and giving up nothing for their lack of mana reliance.

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