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People over prioritize/over value sightstone

MorgManBasher··51 votes·4,036 views

Let me start this off by saying I'm a Diamond support main on 2 accounts and have multiple accounts in high plat.

People always pressure me into rushing sightstone, especially in lower ELO when smurfing and it gets quite annoying. They want it completed right after item 3098 item 3302 all the time regardless of situation, but I feel this is also why a lot of people lose lane to me. They rush a 800g item and they don't even know why or how to use it, meanwhile I am either rushing item 3151 on Velkoz Brand or a item 3107 on Janna Sion Soraka or item 3070 item 3165 on Zilean (if going AP)

Do I feel a sightstone rush is needed sometimes? Yes, unquestionably when you are in a game where you know/are being 3-5 man ganked over and over and over again.

BUT, in a game where you have complete lane control, you can easily take advantage of item 2055 to make up for your lack of sightstone wards while also pushing your advantage with a strong item before finishing your sightstone giving you the edge. This especially works in low ELO where tower dives/5man TP ganks are way less common and done horribly anyway.

You are in a lane with 2 people, so you'll have plenty of free wards (along with item 2055 that you and your ADC should be buying) as long as they aren't being swept by the enemy support/jungler. Once you see this action of constant ward clearing, this is 100% the time you need to rush a sightstone because you are going to be the target for ganks now if not and the jungler will be coming to gank and will clear your item 2055 leaving you blind. But a lot of times you can 2v3 simply because of power level due to your complete lane dominance.

Am I saying sightstone rush is wrong? No, if it works for you then do it but don't blindly buy it every game first item and then question why you lost lane. If all you are doing with sightstone is warding your lane, you aren't even using it properly anyway, you should be warding the enemy jungle to see the ganks coming a mile away.

I am prepared to be downvoted into the depths of Hell, but I always sit at 60% winrates in high plat/diamond, 70% win rates when in low plat or below and I always feel a bit sorry for the enemy support who rushed a sightstone completely gimping his lane power in lane just because he thinks he 100% has to rush that item every single game while I crush him and his ADC into the ground.

102 Comments

dunder kill18 votes

Random D5 Support says sightstone isn't important. Since you made your rank a point we can play that game. Every Pro support rushes item 2049 in Pro games and Challenger SoloQ. D5 is shit compared to Challenger.

I'm taking their advice over yours all day every day

Arakadia35 votes

Pro gameplay is very different from your gameplay. Their not really comparable.

dunder kill4 votes

and Challenger SoloQ

?

Velzard of Koz2 votes

One does not simply read whole message with full comprehension when it's against the original thread point.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

Pro gameplay is very different from your gameplay. Their not really comparable.

it is really comparable if you actually bother paying attention to the mini map. The higher you go up in rank the more people have map awareness that should be a given and something that you should be expecting (or at least i should hope it is that way). You having no vision vs them having a lot of vision is just putting your entire team at a disadvantage. In bronze and Silver where people map awareness is lacking it doesn't really matter all that much and you could get away without building sightstone more often than not. You don't need to have perfect communication to simply look down at the mini map for a second and see where the enemy is

MorgManBasher13 votes

It doesn't matter what vision you provide if it goes to waste. Yes you can prevent ganks, but the vision game is more than that, it's suppose to also setup ganks by removing their vision so YOUR jungler can gank your lane, however low ELO or even plat/diamond fail to do this a lot.

Again, not saying sightstone rush is bad at all it's just solo que wastes your efforts a lot for buying an item that does nothing outside the vision game, while redemption or damage never goes wasted.

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Challenger SoloQ

MorgManBasher10 votes

Comparing pro/challenger games to low ELO games is not the best. Your vision ends up being wasted most of the time and your jungler doesn't take advantage of the vision you provided or the vision you take away like they do in high ELO.

Even in plat/diamond vision goes wasted a lot of the time. Does it mean sightstone rush is bad? Hell no, it's always good but doesn't make you win your lane either and in solo que winning the game is half of who wins lanes.

AlienPrimate12 votes

Here is how I value sight stone:

I need it: Pretty even lane Jungler is invading

I don't need it: I am confident we can 3v2 We are always pushed under tower Their jungler is Evelynn

hater free zone4 votes

As you more or less stated, people just need to better understand power spikes. Having a particular order in how you play is how a lot of low elo people depend on playing the game. It's why you see a lot of people gripe about build order despite the team compositions, match-up or advantages.

What really bothers me as a support main is seeing people who play aggro bot laner champions like Brand or Zyra and never building item 2049 ever. They go so deep into their DPS that they don't realize how much they have compromised map control.

MorgManBasher10 votes

You should pretty much always be buying sightstone as your second item tbh, it's 100% needed and I will never support those who don't buy it at all. Some games I'll do item 3116 item 3151 before finishing item 2301 if it's a total stomp with Zyra Brand but you just need to know when to stop dipping into damage and when to start knowing you need map control because item 2055 wards won't be enough at a certain point.

MatthewRT21 votes

I always get sight stone first back before getting my tier two support item

Verdade4 votes

You're screwing yourself big time. T2 gold gen. item is literally the most important item you can have

TotalJerk1 votes

As a matter of fact these types tend to outright flame you if you ask them to buy one.

Verdade4 votes

Don't be surprised, support mains get flamed every time they don't get sightstone in first 3 minutes. That shit gets really annoying

BBag0hxULG4 votes

You have the actual supports like Janna Leona that build sightstone, then you have the Brand Zyra you just build frost queens -> full damage.

Athenes Lulu4 votes

I wouldn't say first rush, but as long as you leave lane with one that's what's more important, because that's when vision becomes more important.

Sometimes there's no need for a sightstone when you and your ADC are having tea near our tower and junglers aren't showing up there.

On a side note, you don't have to say what rank you are, your badges and OP.GG has enough information.

Pale Pirate4 votes

What you're saying actually makes sense. But please, have a sightstone when the mid-game is even close to starting. If you don't and the enemy does, the disparity in vision becomes huge.

######Wait... You rush item 3107 on sion support?

MorgManBasher4 votes

[{quoted}](name=0 oxros piratis,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEVHa6qf,comment-id=0018,timestamp=2017-03-19T11:40:41.450+0000)

What you're saying actually makes sense. But please, have a sightstone when the mid-game is even close to starting. If you don't and the enemy does, the disparity in vision becomes huge.

######Wait... You rush item 3107 on sion support?

The item is just overpowered, so yeah, but you can do whatever you want. I just love Sion support tbh. Sion item 3107 item 3190 item 3047 item 2303 item 3109 item 3143 Knight's Vow or sunfire rush works too. Yolo.

Or throw in a item 3110 to maximize your CDR to 40-45% depending on if you are running bond of stone, CoC or thunderlords...all 3 pretty good on Sion. I usually use CoC though.

Gregor Gysi4 votes

Keep in mind that this is really dependent on the enemy jungler and your playstyle. If you play Evelynn you might aswell delay for a long time, but if you face a Lee Sin and a roaming midlaner while playing against Soraka/Tristana you may want to opt for a Sightstone.

If you want to know if you should rush Sightstone too often or too little just try to remember what went wrong when you die early: do you frequently die to ganks or do you lose the 2v2?

chipndip13 votes

Really no reason to NOT build vision after Frostfang, honestly...save the fringe case of not having enough dough for it. Getting your tier 2 gold item first makes a case for itself, because if you don't and they do, they have lane fight over you by that margin until you get yours, but after that initial purchase, you should have your sights on vision rather shortly.

deadlychuck2 votes

The support role gives very little feedback, so i don't blame non-supports for not understanding how it functions.

I think it's best to say that it's the most intuitive role, and that people shouldn't criticize it without extensive experience, as they don't have the intuitive understandings needed to do so constructively.

RavenMagus2 votes

Do I feel a sightstone rush is needed sometimes? Yes, unquestionably when you are in a game where you know/are being 3-5 man ganked over and over and over again.

That feels like every single game when I'm bot, though. :/

Verdade2 votes

Actually, in 2v4 is SS useless. Hp won't help you and you know they're there anywsys. Also not buying SS doesn't mean not using pinks

Divewing2 votes

As a player with garbage mechanics to the point where I have to 2-trick on Azir and Talon by either masterminding a teamfight or picking people as they rotate, good god I rely on acquiring and using as much vision as I can, Sightstone being the primary source.

Supreme Senpai692 votes

Might be obvious to say but sightstone is only worth it if you use it. Many times I don't buy one and I still have more wards down than the enemy support that did. And with my 800 free extra gold I bought stats which I used to get the ADC fed. Obviously I build sightstone most of the time, it's a case by case basis. But even the games that I do buy it, I buy it after laning phase. Bot lane only has 1 bush to ward if you don't overextend, two if you do. It's the same as top lane except the difference is you have two people with wards instead of one. Poor mid lane has 8 openings yet you don't see them buying a sightstone.

It's because you don't really need one just for laning phase.

Sightstone's real power comes from the teamfighting phase, to ward bushes, the enemy jungle to catch people out, and objectives. If the ADC is warding too there's absolutely no reason to get one that early.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Might be a case of different ELOs, but I often have to rush SS to be able to keep not just river bush warded, but one or both of the lane bushes at times. Down here there's a lot of poke "supports" Brand and CC bots Blitzcrank Leona Nautilus constantly dipping into bushes to give less warning for when they fire off abilities. Many times rushing SS ASAP has allowed me to save my ADC from getting hit and killed by bush wankers.

Verdade1 votes

"bush wankers" aren't countered by wards. There's literally no difference between grass with potential Blitz in there and with visible blitz. You should play the same in both situations. The only difference is when your jungler comes over and you see that blitz overextended.

Scrinnid1 votes

{quoted}

"bush wankers" aren't countered by wards. There's literally no difference between grass with potential Blitz in there and with visible blitz. You should play the same in both situations. The only difference is when your jungler comes over and you see that blitz overextended.

Bush wanking leo is playing her bit wrong anyway. Leo is engage-counterengage, just like morgana.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Assuming she initiates with E, that's still a case of "Sudden CC Overload" without any forewarning.

Granted, I'm with you on that not being her most effective playstyle, but it's certainly not completely unviable.

Scrinnid1 votes

True.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

There's literally no difference between grass with potential Blitz in there and with visible blitz.

Blatantly false.

Verdade1 votes

Would you be so kind and explain your post? Or is that just "i know better" attitude?

chipndip14 votes

With vision in the bush:

  • You can AA Blitz.

  • You can better dodge his attacks.

  • You can actually aim at him rather than just shooting blindly into the bush when using skill shots.

With no vision in the bush:

  • Blitz can be anywhere in that patch. Either the far end or right next to you.

  • You can't AA Blitz.

  • You won't know when he's prepping to hook you, or if he even shot the hook, until the arm flies out of the bush.

  • He can fly out of the bush with his W on, dashing right at you, without any warning until he's out of the bush.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

Oh. Could be ELO. What I do though is just keep a pink in the tri (giggity) and rotate our trinkets to keep the lane bush warded in those cases. Or if they hide in the bush, I chill in the other side of the lane closer to the river and harass their ADC. Usually the enemy support doesn't want to give their bush control up so they just let their ADC deal with the 1v2.

That might not work in your ELO but it totally does in mine lol

It Hertz When IP1 votes

In ours that'd leave us hanging out too close to the jungle entrances, which (depending on their jungler) could end up leaving us caught between a rock and a hard Blitz.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

Is getting stuck between a Malphite and a hard Blitzcrank not a good thing? Sounds like my kind of monday night.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg

kasfas2 votes

I don't care if my team's support doesn't get sightstone immediately, just have it before midgame rolls around and I want to start pressuring objectives and splitpushing and the rest.

Basically I want my support to have a sightstone and decent ward coverage by 25 minutes at the latest. That's the reason I buy a sightstone early when playing support , so I can get good vision and don't forget it later .

paisy2 votes

How do you reach diamond as a support main

MorgManBasher1 votes

By crushing autofill supports, kappa

But seriously, not a lot of support mains and the ones that are support mains are usually really passive while I am very aggressive. ADC mains usually like me a lot because I let them free farm. It's just all about lane pressure starting usually at level 1 with just auto attacks depending on what support/adc you have and what support/adc they have and how aggressive you can be and when your powerspikes are.

paisy1 votes

Oh ok thanks for the reply, makes sense coming from your post

notice me Sin pi2 votes

im only a silver, but i never buy item 2049 if:

  • i feel like it's impossible for my adc to not die while i go on a warding trip.
  • my lane gets constantly pushed into tower and there's only 1 path to botlane gank for the enemy team (in which case trinket is more than enough to do the job, even without a red ward)
6Sfool2 votes

I never understood the sightstone rush. Yes you need it eventually but I'd rather have stats in the early game. Supports don't get much gold, they should be spending it wisely.

DarkDeamonDragon2 votes

{quoted}

You are in a lane with 2 people, so you'll have plenty of free wards (along with item 2055 that you and your ADC should be buying)

You say that but very rarely have I had ADCs in bronze use their trinkets let alone purchase a item 2055. I can't tell you how many times a successful enemy gank could have been prevented if my ADC put one of their 2 stacked trinket wards down after I pinged that mine was on CD. I still get blamed for not warding somehow. Getting an ADC to help ward is like finding a unicorn.

meowwow72 votes

i wouldn't be rushing rss if i wasn't a tanky supp with a whole bunch of active items in my build and my allies were to use their trinkets atleast once a game like quite literally i had an adc that didn't place his first ward til 15 minutes ._.

Dracocrash1 votes

I feel exactly the same way as you. Sometimes rushing redemption or the sheild item is way better than rushing a sightstone. Like Come on! If they have a zac jungle or sumthing, ofc by all means rush that sightstone, but they have a karma jungle, fk is she gonna do?

MorgManBasher3 votes

Whenever I see a MasterYi Shyvana or any farm jungler I just don't care at all about vision early. Their ganks are so pathetic early game.

Also when i see an eve jungle I just say, okay, can't ward against this unless I ward her camps anyway so fuck sightstone early unless I am afraid of mid roams.

skyskee0081 votes

Hey I just have a question. I normally rush SS -> locket for the TP/defensive stats. I think having SS helps me be able to place deep wards in enemy JG to give information to bot AND mid, while also having wards to scout bot lane bushes (for in-lane ganks and aggressive supports) .

I mean ofc going for a item powerspike is gonna be more impactful (redemption is gonna factor a lot more in a mid-game teamfight than SS), but SS really helps if you know what to do with vision. Definitely the spike of liandries or rylais on Brand is gonna be worth more than a sightstone.

However, I do feel that rushing sightstone ISN'T overrated - but if you know how to play around it then that's up to you (better ward management).

MorgManBasher2 votes

If you know how to properly ward and stay alive during the powerspike of the other jungler not rushing sightstone, then yeah I agree.

I mean in pro play they always rush sightstone because vision is insanely important the higher the level of play it goes and even in lower play you can use that sight stone to ward the enemy wolf camp, blue, red, whatever to not only prevent ganks coming to your lane, but to mid and your jungle as well.

However, I personally run into the issue a lot ESPECIALLY in low ELO where I take complete map control with warding and scanning out enemy wards only to have it have 0 effect on the game because either my jungler doesn't care the enemy bot lane has no vision or my laners refuse to pay attention to the vision I provide.

Also when rushing sightstone against someone that rushes damage or redemption, you are pretty much saying "I can't really 2v2 you, but I will try to win the game by making you scared through lack of vision and waiting for ganks" unless you are just straight stronger or better than them.

Like i said, sightstone is far from bad but people underestimate the power of a rushed damage item or item 3107 and some cases that sightstone just isn't going to do a lot early game, especially in low ELO.

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