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Yasuo's Crits vs. Tryndamere's Crits

DorkunedAuras··16 votes·4,822 views

Ok, so Rito's been going on and on about how they want to have meaningful counterplay in lanes, and always have something you can do. Well, let's compare one of the most complained about champions lately, Yasuo, to one that is almost never complained about (except in games where he gets fed), Tryndamere.

To start, they both have passives that give them very high early crit chances (and before all you people say that yasuo starts doran's blade or long sword, I've seen tons opt for the early 16% crit chance instead), with Yasuos often having 16% at first in lane, and trynd going up to 35%. Upon seeing those numbers, you might think that tryndamere has a huge advantage here, and he can, but unlike yasuo, who just passively has crits for fking days, tryndamere's crits can be stopped, and easily too.

If trynd is laning, and eats a few pantheon spears or mundo cleavers, he has to expend his crits, leaving him vulnerable, to heal up. Any decent laner can see that opportunity where his power is super low and jump in and trade harder with more safety, because he doesn't have his early crits to do huge damage back. That's counterplay, where you can see him having a period of strength, and force him to turn it off for hp, or die to poke. At the same time, if you don't poke him and he stays healthy, then what's stopping him from jumping onto you and critting you 3 times, nearly killing you? It's a give and take and you and him have to control the balance.

Compare this to yasuo, who passively gets extra crits, and after his first back if he's at all decent, he'll build towards his shiv and suddenly be ahead of trynd in crit chance. Plus, those crits can't go away, they're just there. Oh, but you can poke him... if he didn't have free recharging shields. Notice how they both have some play against poke, but one of them is a give and take, and the enemy can use that to control his power, but the other is just "I have a shield and crits passively, what can you do about that?"

One of these seems inherently like a better system than the other, but let's discuss this. Maybe this will give rito ideas for the future. Rek'Sai's fury bar was a good direction, but free healing vs your mildly tickling E tickling slightly more? meh, could be more. Anyway, TALK TO ME!

30 Comments

Haestro22 votes

The fact that people still complain about Yasuo is pretty depressing.

Akesgeroth2 votes

He's like Darius: Not that good, but if an idiot lanes against him he'll feed a bunch of kills and Yasuo will scale out of control.

AHeroNamedHawke12 votes

You seem to be missing a few things

  1. Yasuo has reduced crit damage and running crit chance in lane is fairly weak compared to AS, while Trynd gets a bunch of free AD + crit with 0 investment

  2. Trynd generally sustains with innate crits + lifesteal from dorans/runes/scepter, and rushes sustain without losing damage unlike Yasuo

  3. Pantheon shits far harder on Yasuo than Trynd so idk what you're on about. Comparing one against an extremely strong lane bully and not the other is fairly dumb

commit an hero11 votes

Oh you mean that shield that actually takes a good window to recharge? How about you stop wasting your big damaging abilities on it, you know AA him.

Leti the Yeti1 votes

well, i would say a decent yasuo would wind wall as your big damaging abilities is already in flight

Stars Shaper2 votes

This means that he planned it out better than the enemy and Yasuo should be rewarded for it. It doesn't mean that the enemy should get compensation for being outplayed.

NoFunWithNunu3 votes

oh you mean yasuo wont move after his shield is down and let me attack him? thats a stupid statment, valid but stupid, yasuo dosnt have to hold his own even if his shield is up or down, but malphite (comparing passives not roles) who has to actually stay out of dmg to regain his shield actually has a big counterplay (yasuo just moves around like a retard and thats it), its melee, lacks way more mobility and its weaker than yasuo if he dosnt try to farm or actually get a kill or assistances, meanwhile yasuo is resourceless champ with decent clearwave.

in short, 1 auto wont stop yasuo

Stars Shaper2 votes

Even if the first AA gets in his shield is wasted. Also his run speed doesn't allow him to be super fast.

commit an hero1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Troll Berserker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE1yRW2G,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2015-01-04T00:22:48.525+0000)

oh you mean yasuo wont move after his shield is down and let me attack him? thats a stupid statment, valid but stupid, yasuo dosnt have to hold his own even if his shield is up or down, but malphite (comparing passives not roles) who has to actually stay out of dmg to regain his shield actually has a big counterplay (yasuo just moves around like a retard and thats it), its melee, lacks way more mobility and its weaker than yasuo if he dosnt try to farm or actually get a kill or assistances, meanwhile yasuo is resourceless champ with decent clearwave.

in short, 1 auto wont stop yasuo

Except for the fact that he has shit base health, squishy as fuck. And if he did use his windwall it's down for 26 seconds? I don't know about you but that's a fairly large windows.

NoFunWithNunu1 votes

His base hp its the thing that allows some counterplay because he is resourcless aka spambot, can disable a whole team itself with a form of cc that cannot be reduced and also has a shield rewarded for just walking, the most free stat in game, just walk around, who doesnt walk?

Stars Shaper7 votes

You totally forgot that Trynda can expend his rage AT WILL to regain HP while Yasuo shield is decided by the enemy and it's not nearly enough to block a pantheon spear nor a cleaver.

Plus, Tryndamere can build AD while Yasuo build crits that is reduced by 10% on AAs and 25% on Q while Trynda gets all the benefits from it. Now if Trynda builds half the Crit that builds Yasuo then he is going to have a huge advantage.

Talamare4 votes

Designed by CertainlyTerrible

SecretAgentHulk3 votes

He needs something changed still, I think. That shield makes it impossible to poke him, yet without it he's too squishy to poke himself. I don't know what, but I agree.

I Am Florg3 votes

I don't understand the complaints about yasuo. His mobility is limited by enemy positioning, his only defenses are easy to play around, and his steroid is item reliant. I've never had a problem playing with or against yaxuo. Even before the nerfs.

ImHerVoice2 votes

broken as shit. yeah I know.

RogueFlameHaze2 votes

Read until I realized it was another person complaining about a champ they don't know how to fight. Seriously at least try to learn how to fight him before complaining on forums.

The Soulforged1 votes

His kit is made to counter everything :*( Tryn's kit is actually decently balanced.

ImHerVoice2 votes

no both are toxic crit fucks. One just only might kill you at level 2 the other is garunteed to kill you at level 6 with 20%+ crit rate on top of only having 2 dorans rofl.

SeCKS Egai1 votes

Trynd used to get plenty of complaints, in fact I can't think of any champ that hasn't received complaints, whether it for being too strong or too weak.

Trynd is the guy you can't kill for a few seconds. Yas's kit just offers so much more that everything else Trynd does tends to pale in comparison.

Both are still vulnerable to CC (as is pretty much anybody except maybe Irelia).

Sammystorm1 votes

mundo is pretty immune to cc as well.

The Red Warden1 votes

One idea I always thought of as interesting and that could fix many of his annoyances is the rework of his "Flow" so that it effected his gameplay more. Currently all his "flow" does is act as the cooldown of his passive sheild, but what if it was also a resource for his crit chance and Windwall?

Yasuo's flow bar has always seemed to me to be a concept that could have been expanded on so much more. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't his "flow"supposed to represent the wind energy(?) that he collects while moving around? If so why doesn't it effect the usage of Windwall, a technique where he forces a large amount of wind from his body to transform into a semi-solid barrier. I always thought of his double crit chance as him harnessing the wind to surround his blade and cause its slashes to do more damage. It would just make a bit more since thematically if Yas had to accumulate wind energies(?) before being able to use it in his techniques.

One reason many people dislike Yasuo for is that his sheild and Windwall make it feel like abilities and ultimate are wasted to no effect on Yas except for providing him with 2 mildly short cooldowns. This could be mostly fixed though by having the use of these techniques eat up parts of his flow bar, and that with less "flow" Yas would suffer more consequences.

What I am proposing is something upon the lines of this:

  • Yasuo's flow bar goes from 0-100, and increases by 25 with each ability point put into his ultimate. The activation of his shield causes the bar to drain by 75-50% but it can only activate if Yas has over 85-55% of his current flow bar filled. The more "flow" that is absorbed the stronger the shield. (What this is supposed to do is allow for the shield to pop up much more frequently, but each time with less health. This creates a tankier Yasuo that while durable initially can easily be taken down in a drawn out fight). The increased flow recharge and lesser requirements for activation will allow his sheild to recharge every 4+ seconds in the late game.

  • Wind wall would cost around 80-60% of his Flow bar with a decreasing cost for each point put into it. This is to give the Yasuo player more decisions for when to cast it. It will still increase in size with each point but I am not sure about the cooldown.

new passive effect on w the flow regeneration rate while Yasuo is moving increases for each point put into his w.

  • The double-chance would lose the -10% damage but it can only occur while the flow bar is over 50%. The intention here is to make the Yas player think about when he activates his defensive abilities more and allow for more choices between Yas and his opponents (If the enemy casts a powerful projectile Yas has to decide between using Windwall to block it but having to build up more Flow to get back his double crit chance, or hoping that his sheild can absorb it). the interaction with the passive shield is that the more it drains the flow bar the less time his crit boost is active. This wouldn't effect him much late game since he should have built up more crit chance by then.

  • Flow is still collected while moving around, it would take around 16 seconds of walking at base ms to restore the 100 flow bar at level 1, but around 8 seconds to fill the full 175 late game (with fully leveled w and 2nd tier boots)

  • His base stats (and scaling to a lesser degree) in armor and health would be increased to help him in lane where he is much more vulnerable now

  • this is a rough draft of a rework for Yasuo, the numbers are just put in as examples to show what I mean (they are in no means final). All to none of these ideas may be put into the actual game. I know that this has flaws, but I believe in the concept behind it. I tried to keep most of his gameplay patterns the same while still preserving his ability to scale well into late game.

The main focus of this is to limit Yasuo's safety in lane (if he windwalls he won't be able to get the shield up right away, and the activation of either in the early game will take out his double crit for a short time) while buffing his ability to take down tougher enemies (higher base stats in his health and armor and the faster recharge on the shield make it so that Yasuo doesn't have to rely on his ult to engage and can actually enter the melee range of most fighters without instantly dying)

Yes, something like this would change parts of his gameplay-patterns, but it would probably be for the better with how it adds more decisions for both Yas and his opponents while trying to fix many of the things people complain about on him. I also tried to fit more of his theme as a Wind controlling samurai into his kit.

edit: re-worded what I was trying to say to make it les confusing and gave a better explanation for how it would work out in game.

AHeroNamedHawke5 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Warden,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE1yRW2G,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-01-03T21:33:41.107+0000)

One idea I always thought of as interesting and that could fix many of his annoyances is the rework of his "Flow" so that it effected his gameplay more. Currently all his "flow" does is act as the cooldown of his passive sheild, but what if it was also a resource for his crit chance and Windwall?

Yasuo's flow bar has always seemed to me to be a concept that could have been expanded on so much more. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't his "flow"supposed to represent the wind energy(?) that he collects while moving around? If so why doesn't it effect the usage of Windwall, a technique where he forces a large amount of wind from his body to transform into a semi-solid barrier. I always thought of his double crit chance as him harnessing the wind to surround his blade and cause its slashes to do more damage. It would just make a bit more since thematically if Yas had to accumulate wind energies(?) before being able to use it in his techniques.

One reason many people dislike Yasuo for is that his sheild and Windwall make it feel like abilities and ultimate are wasted to no effect on Yas except for providing him with 2 mildly short cooldowns. This could be mostly fixed though by having the use of these techniques eat up parts of his flow bar, and that with less "flow" Yas would suffer more consequences.

What I am proposing is something upon the lines of this:

  • Yasuo's flow bar goes from 0-100, and increases by 25 with each ability point put into his ultimate. The activation of his sheild causes the bar to drain by 75-50% but it can only activate if Yas has over 85-50% of his current flow bar filled. (rough estimates but it is supposed to make his shield activate more and cost less in the late game which is when he needs it most. No idea about the shield's hit points about but it would definitely scale up throughout the game)

  • Wind wall would cost around 80-55% of his Flow bar with a decreasing cost for each point put into it. This is to give the Yasuo player more decisions for when to cast it. It should still increase in size with each point but I am not sure about the cooldown. (Windwall is a game changing ability that can cancel entire ults, that is why I believe Yasuo should have more consequences for casting it)

  • The double-chance would lose the -10% damage but it can only occur while the flow bar is over 50%. The intention here is to make the Yas player think about when he activates his defensive abilities more and allow for more choices between Yas and his opponents (If the enemy casts a powerful projectile Yas has to decide between using Windwall to block it but having to build up more Flow to get back his double crit chance). This wouldn't effect him much late game since he would built up more crit chance by then.

  • Flow is still collected while moving around, with possibly an increase in collected amount based on the ranking of one of his abilities (probably on the w)

  • Some of his stats would have to be changed to help with his new weaknesses, especially in his health and armor

  • this is a rough draft of a rework for Yasuo, the numbers are just put in as examples to show what I mean (they are in no means final). All to none of these ideas may be put into the actual game. I know that this has flaws, but I believe in the concept behind it. I tried to keep most of his gameplay patterns the same while still preserving his ability to scale well into late game.

Yes, something like this would change parts of his gameplay-patterns, but it would probably be for the better with how it adds more decisions for both Yas and his opponents while trying to fix many of the things people complain about on him. I also tried to fit more of his theme as a Wind controlling samurai into his kit.

It takes 14 seconds to charge his shield at base ms and wind wall is on a base 26 second CD

I wouldnt call those short cooldowns

Making wind wall cost flow means hes locked out of his primary defensive spell every time someone autoattacks him and would feel awful to play

The Red Warden1 votes

Like I said no numbers are final and that it is a rough draft. There would also be a boost to his flow regeration whenever he puts a point into his w as I stated in it. If you read the whole thing you would realize that the shield doesn't absorb the whole "flow bar" anymore. You did read how his armor and health should also be boosted to help with the new openings he has, right?

AHeroNamedHawke3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Warden,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE1yRW2G,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2015-01-03T22:51:40.352+0000)

Like I said no numbers are final and that it is a rough draft. There would also be a boost to his flow regeration whenever he puts a point into his w as I stated in it. If you read the whole thing you would realize that the shield doesn't absorb the whole "flow bar" anymore. You did read how his armor and health should also be boosted to help with the new openings he has, right?

You're still going to die if caught out without flow from someone autoattacking you, and W is maxed last

Yasuo is a champion gated by positioning and mechanics, not costs or (somewhat) cooldowns

Wind wall placement and planning out dashes are where his skillcap comes from, not an arbitrary resource gate

The primary issue with his kit is being able to ult off every displacement in the game

The Red Warden1 votes

W may be maxed last but people still put in at least one point early so the boost in flow recovery could just be static that stays the same once he unlocks it.

The W is the only ability that is effected by resources, the passive is what it mainly changes. I am trying to limit his safety in lane so that he can have other parts of his kit changed/buffed. Yasuo currently has the existing problem of being a super hard counter to some champions while being a tasty snack to others, my goal is to even that out by switching around some of his strengths and weaknesses.

In my changes I was trying to make it so that he would be able to use the shield a lot more if he doesn't use Windwall. The decrease in flow drain of the Shield and increase in flow recovery, make it so that Yasuo would be able to have his passive shield much more as long as he stays mobile in combat (ex: If Yasuo keeps dashing and constantly moving while fighting the Shield cool down will be less than 1/2 of its current average cooldown).

This is to try and push him away from just placing a Windwall down and waiting for a teammate to allow his ult to activate. Instead Yasuo (with his more reliable shield and higher base armor and health) can engage tougher enemies himself, dashing around them with his E and q, without having to rely on a teamate knocking them up first before he can do anything.

Ryu the first3 votes

...he NEEDS a form of Wind Wall. He's squishy enough as it is. Don't take it away if he gets auto attacked.

The Red Warden1 votes

If you read my original post, both his base health and armor would be increased to compensate for having more weakness in lane. The shield also recharges much faster since it doesn't absorb the full "flow" bar. I also stated how any skill point in his w would increase his flow recharge rate meaning more passive shields.

Ryu the first3 votes

It has already been stated, w is maxed last anyways. Taking another point early would nerf him far more than you are already proposing. Also, armor increasing, in midlane, where he is picked as a counter to AP champions, is pointless. Great for the shield? Past laning phase it's negligible anyways.

VG Elder Night2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Warden,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EE1yRW2G,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-01-03T21:33:41.107+0000)

One idea I always thought of as interesting and that could fix many of his annoyances is the rework of his "Flow" so that it effected his gameplay more. Currently all his "flow" does is act as the cooldown of his passive sheild, but what if it was also a resource for his crit chance and Windwall?

Yasuo's flow bar has always seemed to me to be a concept that could have been expanded on so much more. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't his "flow"supposed to represent the wind energy(?) that he collects while moving around? If so why doesn't it effect the usage of Windwall, a technique where he forces a large amount of wind from his body to transform into a semi-solid barrier. I always thought of his double crit chance as him harnessing the wind to surround his blade and cause its slashes to do more damage. It would just make a bit more since thematically if Yas had to accumulate wind energies(?) before being able to use it in his techniques.

Riven uses the exact same wind energy if you read the god-fking-damned lore.

The Red Warden1 votes

I do read the lore, and Riven uses a rougher less refined version of the technique (Who in Noxus could possibly teach her how to use that technique? And what Ionian master would instrust a Noxian, even an exiled one on ancient traditional fighting forms?) Yasuo has trained for years in it making his control of the wind much more precise. But after the retcon who even knows if the Ionia-Noxus war still happened?

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