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@Riot, Are you going to adress jungle "Potion tax" and Magis/Devourer enchantments?

Fadedpf··8 votes·1,716 views

I haven't seen anything on the PBE dealing with jungle sustain after a red said they were working on fixing the potion tax that junglers have. Jungle sustain is okay on some junglers, usually high tier picks stay pretty healthy. Having trailblazer is nice but sometimes challenging smite and chilling smite is the way to make plays and get ahead in fights. Honestly I feel trailblazer should be considered a wave clear and a farm oriented smite item. Rather than a band-aid over a jungler with bad sustain, denying them other uses of their smite.

And about the magis/devourer enchantments, I am really hoping they get buffed or reworked like juggernaut into cinderhulk. Season five is kicking off good with a relatively healthy meta with many strategies. I just hope that all enchantments can be strong and unique so that current junglers could have 2 or more enchantment options or junglers that are not in right now can be brought back with a buffed magis/devourer. With also the hope that they do not have to drink potions for a life time to stay healthy and confident enough to gank.

34 Comments

Haestro3 votes

I think Magus, in terms of the item alone, is fine and the reason you don't see it often is because AP champions are just not designed for the jungle in the first place. Because of its strength, I don't think it's worth overpowering the item itself to see non-standard AP jungles. Devourer is just a bad item and needs to be buffed because champions it might be ideal on are getting Cinderhulk guaranteed anyways (Shyvana, Udyr, etc).

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

I think Magus, in terms of the item alone, is fine and the reason you don't see it often is because AP champions are just not designed for the jungle in the first place. Because of its strength, I don't think it's worth overpowering the item itself to see non-standard AP jungles. Devourer is just a bad item and needs to be buffed because champions it might be ideal on are getting Cinderhulk guaranteed anyways (Shyvana, Udyr, etc).

I think Magus is fine in the sense that it has tons of stats and that's powerful, but it has the wrong ones. I'd so gladly trade 10% CDR for 50% mana regen. It's the mana issue that's keeping people like Diana out of the jungle even though they're vaguely suitable for it.

Nameless Voice2 votes

As someone who plays a lot of AP Evelynn, I'd really love to have some way to avoid that potion tax. I have to buy potions throughout the entire game, or am forced to use the very sub-standard Trailblazer instead, which cripples my gank power.

I miss the old mage jungle item which granted spell vamp. (Though that wouldn't help Eve much in her current state, since her E doesn't proc spell vamp any more.)

Partholonian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EBMBF4YA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-25T12:44:26.956+0000)

I have to buy potions throughout the entire game, or am forced to use the very sub-standard Trailblazer instead, which cripples my gank power.

I think it's disturbing that having exactly the same ganking power you had in S4 is described as "crippled" now. It's not even wrong, that's the problem. Chilling smite has exploded ganking power so much, it's a big part of why gank early and often is even MORE mandatory than it was in previous seasons.

KMannnnn12 votes

I would say devourer and magus are in an okay spot right now, it's just that mage junglers and devourer-ers aren't exactly in the meta right now. Both provide solid stats all around, if a little bit straightforward, and are way more efficient for what they provide than either of the other enchants on-purchase.

As for the different smite upgrades, I feel like they need to be rebalanced a little bit, because the only 2 I ever see in game are item 3713 and item 3706, and I agree that Trailblazer especially is more of a "pick this if you're bad/your champ is bad" option. Not that there's a problem with jungle "easy mode," because lord knows I couldn't jungle without it, but when it starts to bully out other options at all levels of play, that's a problem.

Partholonian1 votes

I think if the enchants were better, then the champions that used them would be better. Juggernaut users weren't in the meta either. Item changes are one of the main causes of meta changes.

KMannnnn11 votes

I'm not saying the users are weak, they're just not popular. Tanks legitimately suffered before cinderhulk was introduced, which is why it was changed. Most jungle mages and devourer-users are doing alright at the moment, you just don't see them as much.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying the users are weak, they're just not popular. Tanks legitimately suffered before cinderhulk was introduced, which is why it was changed. Most jungle mages and devourer-users are doing alright at the moment, you just don't see them as much.

except that most junglers that can use devourer are just getting Cinderhulk because it's just that much better than devourer. Shyvana? takes Cinderhulk, Udyr? he rather get Cinderhulk than devourer, Warwick? he might prefer devourer over Cinderhulk but i would argue it's more because he really wants that extra AS. Yi? i think he would prefer warrior over devourer. Devourer users issue isn't that they are doing bad it's that devourer sucks and Cinderhulk or Warrior are better enchantments over devourer at almost any time of the game regardless of how the game is going.

Magus's issue is more of the champions themselves rather than Magus itself in my opinion

BluePolarizer2 votes

Warrior isn't as good as Devourer on Yi since Yi can almost (2.3) cap out on attack speed with just devourer, BoRK and runes and ult on. Not even zerkers required. That means with devourer, he can build bork, devourer then semi-tanky with 1 other damage item and still be a huge threat to carries, while building warriors means he is forced to build full glass or he'll fall off late game.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Warrior isn't as good as Devourer on Yi since Yi can almost (2.3) cap out on attack speed with just devourer, BoRK and runes and ult on. Not even zerkers required. That means with devourer, he can build bork, devourer then semi-tanky with 1 other damage item and still be a huge threat to carries, while building warriors means he is forced to build full glass or he'll fall off late game.

implying Yis build anything but full glass cannon

BluePolarizer1 votes

many high elo Yi mains build bruiser. I'm not even high elo and I build bruiser.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

might as well make the jungle deal no damage then... "potion tax" seriously?

Fadedpf1 votes

Its not like riot stated this is a real thing.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Its not like riot stated this is a real thing.

please give me a link of where they stated this because i don't remember anything about it. They said they wanted to open up the jungle for more champions and they have so i want to know where this "potion tax" thing is from

Fadedpf1 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zxMqjuBX-lets-talk-about-the-jungle

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zxMqjuBX-lets-talk-about-the-jungle

hmmm, they said they were going to examine it so maybe they haven't gotten enough data to do something that won't bite then later and pretty much force them to revert the change? i would say that Trailblazer would be the item to change if they wanted you to always remain healthy enough in the jungle though

Fadedpf1 votes

They worked on making hunters machete having more sustain added on to it but it was scrapped. There are currently changes to the jungle that I know of right now. I just want sustain to be a bit better and all enchantments being strong with warrior and cinderhulk being the only real options right now

Partholonian1 votes

I don't know if it was scrapped or not. They keep putting it in and taking it out every PBE cycle in a way that suggests that they're not done with the idea but they also don't consider it ready to go live yet. So we may still see it in a few more months.

The Bard Dog1 votes

what does potion tax mean exactly?

Nameless Voice7 votes

"I have to keep buying potions throughout the entire game because the jungle hurts and I don't have enough sustain."

The Bard Dog2 votes

that's dumb. who cares. its 35 gold. if it's really a problem then bring poachers knife, and clear enemy jungle camps to pay your cost in potions.

LankPants8 votes

It's just 35 gold, until you buy 10, then it's 350 gold.

DrathTurtle3142 votes

And that is a longsword(almost).

Aych Pii1 votes

The whole problem is that certain junglers having worse clears is forcing people to either take Trailblazer or buy tons of potions (and I can't speak for anyone else but when I need to buy potions I usually take the money from my warding fund), telling people to just take poacher's created the same problem.

Teridax681 votes

On top of the compounded cost, which LankPants mentioned below, there's also the issue of potions taking up inventory slots, which can suck even early on when trying to complete an enchantment with boots and some basic item on the side. Getting rid of potions allows you to carry more items, but it also means you need to back after a couple of ganks or camps, rather than a full clear/sweep.

KMannnnn11 votes

The increase in cost for item 1039 made junglers have to start with fewer potions, hurting early clears, and lowering viability of most "off-meta" junglers. I think that's what OP is referring to, anyways.

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

Having trailblazer is nice but sometimes challenging smite and chilling smite is the way to make plays and get ahead in fights.

Hmm, there's just something missing from this comparison... item 3711

Honestly I feel trailblazer should be considered a wave clear and a farm oriented smite item. Rather than a band-aid over a jungler with bad sustain, denying them other uses of their smite.

I agree, the aoe damage of trailblazer is fine, but the stun and extra lifesteal on the smite makes it a crutch for champions who can't jungle otherwise, and that's a problem. Maybe there should be some champions who genuinely have no business jungling, but anyone who is intended to be viable in the jungle shouldn't NEED trailblazer just to live -- they should WANT it because they want faster clears.

And it should be OK to pursue an upgrade path that isn't about ganking more.

And about the magis/devourer enchantments, I am really hoping they get buffed or reworked like juggernaut into cinderhulk. Season five is kicking off good with a relatively healthy meta with many strategies. I just hope that all enchantments can be strong and unique so that current junglers could have 2 or more enchantment options or junglers that are not in right now can be brought back with a buffed magis/devourer. With also the hope that they do not have to drink potions for a life time to stay healthy and confident enough to gank.

I love what they did with cinderhulk (even though they went a little overboard and had to tone it down a bit), so I agree that I'd like to see them do something with magus and devourer as well.

Although I think the problem for mages starts at the first clear, so I'd like to see the whole machete line gain something like "When you hit a monster with a spell, regain X% of its cost (limit once per spell)".

Fadedpf1 votes

I didn't list item 3711 because it is not used obviously.

Partholonian1 votes

But it should be used. Or maybe removed, if they really can't come up with any way to make it (and the playstyle it represents) useful, but why have it if it's just going to stink?

qetzel1 votes

The other jungle items probably will be changed at some time. I don't think they will come out any time soon though - think of how long cinderhulk took. And think about how weak some champions became competitively. It is really hard not to mess the game up with big changes, even if you take time over them. Big changes should be handled with care.

I don't think we should put sustain on every jungle item... Sustain shouldn't be given without a tradeoff, be that in ganking power, duelling or in clearing speed.

Renaille1 votes

Why not just make jungle camps do less damage than the machete heals?

Doctor Dyment1 votes

Well, I don't really jungle so I don't run into this problem.

Jungle Lux God1 votes

Magus definitely needs a look at. It's the only item that is poorly tuned enough that an entire playstyle is rendered unviable outside of specific champions like Fiddlesticks and Nidalee. Warrior, Cinderhulk, and arguably even Devourer are all tuned so that the champs in that role use these items and still not completely suffer, but Magus doesn't do this at all unless the champion is specifically designed to do well in the jungle regardless of item choice. The potion tax is so great that it completely kills AP junglers, and Magus doesn't help them out.

Devourer I just think is really undertuned, although it getting a better build path with the changes coming in for Recurve Bow next patch should hopefully help. Theoretically, the potion tax should hurt the least for Devourer user because they get the most out of monster kills, but it still hurts a bit. I do think it is undertuned, but not undertuned the way Magus is.

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