Disappointed by Alistar update

Serge THE GREAT··33 votes·15,610 views

Let me preface by saying that his texture rework is fantastic (although Black Alistar's hair color is wrong).

Now that that's out of the way, I'm disappointed by the lack of more slick looking animations added to his character and the lack of any addressing of his AP ratios and his heal ability. His heal is pitiful and is only good late game if you have Ardent Censer on him. Why wasn't there a discussion thread for Alistar before this update went live? If there was, I sure didn't see any thread like I saw the threads for Skarner and pals (although we all remember how 'positively' the Skarner thread and feedback was received, right?). Even a simple change like letting Alistar use his heal while moving would have been awesome. It would have fit his theme of a rampaging minotaur, trampling along his path and letting out a war cry of sorts without stopping to do so.

I've used Alistar A LOT since I started playing League of Legends and he has been one of my most anticipated updates, and for the lack of discussion between Riot and the people who like him (or could start to like him) I just feel really disappointed. Tristana gets all new everything while Alistar gets a texture update (which they all do in these updates), a new run cycle (I think) and a few trample animations.

Isn't it agreed by basically everyone that uses Alistar that his passive is garbage? It's mildly cute in laning phase but that's about where any use out of it ends. I'm well aware this his heal and his passive are meant to make him an aggressive lane pusher, but a lot of AP supports can shove lanes without their passive doing it for them (looking at you Lulu and Morgana). In late game though his passive and heal dwindle in to complete obscurity unless he has Ardent Censer. And if you try and build Alistar as an AP Tank he can do 'okay' but he's better off being build as a full tank since his damage output is mediocre. When I go full AP Alistar, it's not his passive that scores much damage on anything.

I guess I'm in that group of people who think that a champion's abilities should have uses throughout all stages of the game, not just the beginning. And Alistar's AP ratios shouldn't be outrageously high for his Q and W or his E, but I was hoping they would have given his E some kind of unique effect, or give his trample a unique effect. Maybe restore some of his mana on (any) kill with his passive? Just throwing SOME sort of idea out there. Also, how come Singed and Alistar didn't get a new recall animation? Aren't recall animations supposed to be standard on champions now? Was hoping they would use that 'dance' that matadors use to add to Alistar's existing dance too.... ah well.

Sorry for this rant everyone, but after waiting for years for an Alistar update, and to see the "FANCY SHMANCY TRISTANA UPDATE YAAAY!" with the Alistar texture update and walk/trample animations--I feel more than a little let down. I feel even more let down than when I saw Singed's update.

61 Comments

RiotMeddler20 votes

Alistar's a champ we'd like to do some light gameplay work on at some point. He's in a reasonably good spot overall though and there are a lot of other champions we felt needed gameplay reworks more. That left us in a spot where we had the option of shipping some visual improvements, and doing some further work at an undetermined date, or delaying the visual changes until everything else could be worked on (probably quite a long time). Getting those model/texture changes out felt like a clear win, so that's what we decided to go for, given we had a spot in our schedule where we had enough free artist time for a job of this size and type.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I understand that time is a resource and Riot is managing it the best that they, and you, can. I'm happy to see an update for my favorite champion.

Is there a previous place that I can read about the work on his gameplay where someone has commented on what changes are to be made?

Can you comment on it, if not?

Serge THE GREAT5 votes

{quoted}

Alistar's a champ we'd like to do some light gameplay work on at some point. He's in a reasonably good spot overall though and there are a lot of other champions we felt needed gameplay reworks more. That left us in a spot where we had the option of shipping some visual improvements, and doing some further work at an undetermined date, or delaying the visual changes until everything else could be worked on (probably quite a long time). Getting those model/texture changes out felt like a clear win, so that's what we decided to go for, given we had a spot in our schedule where we had enough free artist time for a job of this size and type.

Let me say, I'm happy that you replied to the thread and I respect you for doing so, and I hope that the next few sentences I say do not offend you.

You're certain you'll get back to working on Alistar at some point down the line? And do you mean within the year or later? I worry because I heard the same thing about a few other champions that received visual updates that were said to receive gameplay updates down the line and they haven't happened yet (Garen and Yi). I've felt jaded more and more over the years by video game companies and empty promises so I apologize if I have offended you in some way.

Regardless, I do believe Alistar's new look is good overall and while there are some things here and there some of us do not like about his new appearance, I find that the main theme of Alistar's appearance is better than ever.

Thank you for taking the time to reply, and any other insights you might have to share about ideas for Alistar down the line would be appreciated.

RiotMeddler5 votes

Fair question and no offense taken at all.

I'm quite confident we'll do some work on Alistar at some point. To be quite open I'm not sure that that'll be this year necessarily though (talking about skill functionality changes specifically, I would expect some balance changes sometime this year of course as needed). Alistar's overall very impactful, fun to play, and reasonably well differentiated from other champs. Sure, his passive's a bit uninspiring, as is his E in some circumstances (powerful though it be). When he's significantly too strong he's also basically must pick/ban (see last year's World Champs). Overall though he's in a pretty good spot, and other champs need gameplay work done a lot more than he does.

5G8Nri0B546 votes

I'd say his Passive isn't so much as uninspiring as it does clash with the function you are trying to make him.

As I recall from the last time you talked about Ali, you want him only to be support because anywhere else, he's impossible to deal with. Not the biggest fan since someone like Ali looks like he would rather be rumbling with monsters and picking fights than babysitting, but alright let's go with that...

But if we go for Babysitter Alistar, exactly what mileage will he get out of his Passive then? It's great for jungling. And it lets him harass and clear waves. But how will this aid him as a Support?

Hilltop Sunset1 votes

I can actually speak at least a little to your last question: trample, aside from doing damage, also allows him to pass through minions without minion blockage, which makes it easier for him to pulverize-->walk through minions to get around the pulverized target-->headbutt enemy into ADC/jungler/tower. Yes, that is true for any other lane, but it seems particularly important when playing support to be able to avoid creep-block.

Aside from that, it also helps Alister push the lane when you need to (which some ADCs are really not very good at alonem, particularly single-target champs like Vayne KogMaw ). It also adds a little extra damage to an engage (which can help ADC secure the kill). You could also argue how Lulu's passive helps her support, when all it is is some extra harass from her, unless she uses E on her ADC, which I consider an extra effect to E, not her passive. I would actually argue Alistar's passive if more useful than Lulu's.

TheFrozenIsles1 votes

{quoted}

Fair question and no offense taken at all.

I'm quite confident we'll do some work on Alistar at some point. To be quite open I'm not sure that that'll be this year necessarily though (talking about skill functionality changes specifically, I would expect some balance changes sometime this year of course as needed). Alistar's overall very impactful, fun to play, and reasonably well differentiated from other champs. Sure, his passive's a bit uninspiring, as is his E in some circumstances (powerful though it be). When he's significantly too strong he's also basically must pick/ban (see last year's World Champs). Overall though he's in a pretty good spot, and other champs need gameplay work done a lot more than he does.

Just asking if you could do changes to him right now. What would you like? I can guess his Q,W and R(likely remove of the Ad bounce on his R) will stay more or less the same but what about the others.

lDontLiftIcarry1 votes

Can you compensate AP janna for all the recent guttings to her kit?

More AP ratios on Q/E/W would be a great start.

Saevum4 votes

Also, the chains made him look more fearsome. No chains now :/

Chromatic Eagle4 votes

This. All of my this.

KwangoTango4 votes

[deleted]

Hellish Prophecy1 votes

Lore OP

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

But he has the chains. They just end in shackles instead of like actual chains wrapped around his wrists.

The Unchained skin in particular still has a chain hanging from his neck, as in the original. Chains are still there I promise :)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4Y6lAfJKFVg/VLNbkiczAJI/AAAAAAAAhBg/U_PV7AAETgM/s1600/pbealibaseturn.jpg

Unchained: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mBBiMcqvE2k/VLNu8zmsA4I/AAAAAAAAhHk/tvktC9ZQ69E/s1600/unchained%2Bali%2Bcompare%2B2.jpg

Tendrian4 votes

I hate that Riot pushes out more and more of the VU/TU stuff... compared to proper reworks they always end up looking cheap and low effort

RiotMeddler20 votes

These lower scope visual updates are almost always in addition to the other, larger upgrades, not instead of them. If we're limited by how many champs we make can new character animations and spell effects for at one time, but have the capability to do some more texture/model work, doing those smaller upgrades seems like a good way to help out an extra set of champions that would otherwise not be getting visual upgrades at all at the moment.

58304318_DEL1 votes

Since you're part of the visual team, can you please give us an option to saturate SR a little bit more? Please? Please?! I've been asking for this for such a long time, and I don't see any reason why such option shouldn't be added to the game...

TheSlappySlap1 votes

Sounds pretty difficult from a programming perspective

Tendrian2 votes

{quoted}

These lower scope visual updates are almost always in addition to the other, larger upgrades, not instead of them. If we're limited by how many champs we make can new character animations and spell effects for at one time, but have the capability to do some more texture/model work, doing those smaller upgrades seems like a good way to help out an extra set of champions that would otherwise not be getting visual upgrades at all at the moment.

What I was trying to say up there in way too brief terms is not that I dislike these lower scope works in general.

It's just that, personally, I always saw Alistar as a prime candidate for a bigger rework. His proportions were just so weird, his animations so clunky, I couldn't imagine that salvaging anything from his old self would work out very well. And, to be completely honest... it didn't really. Now don't get me wrong, the PBE Alistar is certainly an improvement over the one on live - but a lot of his old clunkiness still shines through. His silhouette still looks like a giant mime pretending to sit in an imaginary box. His passive animation is still him throwing his arms up in the air 3 times in rapid succession. Things like that. Anyway, the point where this becomes somewhat startling for me is the direct comparison with Tristana. I always thought of both champions as relatively equal when it comes to being outdated, with both being on the older side and in need of work, although in the end, I would have guessed Alistar to be a higher priority due to the reasons above. I know there are good arguments why Tristana has gotten so much visual love (seriously, she looks awesome), and the timing was propably a pretty good opportunity as well because she was up for some gameplay changes, and I would have completely understood if Alistar would have been kept on the backburner for some time to come. However, the decision to launch Tristana as a full-scale rework, while Alistar was kept comparatively low-scale seems pretty... random. It feels a bit like Tristana got scheduled for this big rework and, because of that, Alistar was shoved into a smaller one, even though he would have profited just as much from a complete overhaul. Basically, if 2 or 3 Rioters on the rework team would have been Alistar fans instead of Tristana, we might have ended up with a super-fancy Bull Man running around the PBE while Tristana would have gotten a new face with the flappy ears and some texture work, but still mostly use her old model and animations.

This particular case doesn't even concern me that much since I'm not really an Alistar player. It's just that, when these reworks eventually arrive at the champions that I like and that I'm passionate about, I know that I would be pretty up-in-arms if a champion that was released at a similar time and looks arguably less outdated gets the full Tristana treatment, while my champion received something that, ultimately, doesn't come anywhere close in quality.

Again, I'm not trying to say that those lower scale reworks shouldn't happen. They worked really well for some champions where it was clear that a complete rework wasn't due, like Anivia or Rammus. It's just that, recently, I feel the scales have been tipped a bit too much in their favor, while partly being targeted at champions that might have benefitted more from a larger-scale work, causing some of them to feel a bit lacking in terms of what could have been accomplished. Of course I can't speak for everyone, but personally, I would gladly sacrifice 2 or 3 Alistars for 1 Tristana, even if it slows things down a bit.

Tis a nice day3 votes

I wish his passive could at least receive a boost while ulting.

eg. Trample deals x2 damage while unbreakable will is active.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

His Passive...clashes with the fact that he can only support now.

Either Riot should give him a Supporting Passive or let him do more than just support.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

His Passive...clashes with the fact that he can only support now.

Either Riot should give him a Supporting Passive or let him do more than just support.

But that would allow Tanks to actually be useful! They're probably already sharpening their axes for Maokai.

5G8Nri0B541 votes

Maokai would probably welcome it if his dialogue is any indication. He seems to...hate being alive.

xGvPx1 votes

{quoted}

His Passive...clashes with the fact that he can only support now.

Either Riot should give him a Supporting Passive or let him do more than just support.

This^

I'd give him something cool, like armor over time or something useful. Like say he gains a permanent 0.1 armor and 0.1 AP for every minion that dies around him (make it so he can't land killing blow maybe, otherwise he'll be top and people will cry). Keep only the pass through of trample tied to roar so he can hit heal to position for something other than a W->Q. Would definitely help his weak early game.

Aspynn2 votes

I think they want to retain his passive for viability in the jungle, for some reason Riot seems to really want jungle ali to be a thing. He passive is pretty incredibly crap, and with all the new champs with double, and even triple passives, couldn't they have thrown ali a bone? However the VU is very nice, I was expecting a bit of change in his skillset... Disappointing.

junglerboy167 votes

No, they want it very specifically NOT to be a thing. That is why when they buffed him mid season, they took away his double damage to monsters from his passive so that he COULDN'T jungle. I want to jungle Ali, but Rito seems to think that having a gap closer and CC on the same kit is broken on a jungler CoughLeesinCoughJ4CoughANYONEWHOJUNGLESTHESEDAYSCough... Well, now that I've cleared my throat...

Azteryz1 votes

The problem with his ganks is the fact that he can tower dive you at level at early levels and headbutt you back into lane more so because they buffed his ult to have 70% dmg reduction at all levels this is why they dont wnt him to jungle

rinsujo2 votes

So a champ who can tower dive, then knock you away from the tower so that their teammate can kill you is unfair, according to riot. Ok, cool. But if that champ could q to you to jump back out from tower, instead of walking, or ward hop... that's ok because plays. Riot. Fuck what the pros think. Either nerf Lee or buff everyone else. It's a double standard, and I'm sick of seeing an april fools champ everywhere.

GaleWinUnleashed3 votes

No no no, Riot specifically wants to keep the cow OUT of the jungle. His ganking pattern is incredibly toxic and frustrating. All he does is run behind turrets and headbutt you out toward his teammates.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I play jungle Alistar pretty regularly. His clear is absolute garbage, but his ganks haven't changed a bit.

Despite the nerfs, I can still keep up with most farming junglers if I'm trying to.

Juggernaut Jesus1 votes

Please no AP Alistar again. People still have nightmares about that.

Demonsolder211 votes

I have never seen one before does it hurt?

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

It was quite funny while it lasted. There was a time that you could headbutt people and sneak in an auto as they flew away, so you could buy lich bane and get free poke with no counterplay.

Demonsolder211 votes

you talking about the famous ali combo?

rinsujo1 votes

Nope, not w>q, w>AA.

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

I'm talking about the one that was very specifically nerfed relatively recently. Pulverize is not involved in that particular poking method.

aaronconlin1 votes

His recommended build on ARAM is full AP with Lich Bane. Headbutts HURT

Juggernaut Jesus1 votes

{quoted}

I have never seen one before does it hurt?

Alistar used to have 0.8 and 1.0 ratios on Q and W respectively. Nerfed to 0.8 and 0.6. Nerfed again to today's ratio.

Wheatloaf1 votes

They had a slot open to give him visual work. They didn't have one for gameplay (he's in a pretty good place, compared to our major offenders). They've admitted his passive and E are pretty weak, they just decided to shove out these visuals alone since they had them ready.

Serge THE GREAT1 votes

{quoted}

They had a slot open to give him visual work. They didn't have one for gameplay (he's in a pretty good place, compared to our major offenders). They've admitted his passive and E are pretty weak, they just decided to shove out these visuals alone since they had them ready.

Double quoting you, apologies.

Also, this is what people said about Master Yi and Garen. "They'll fix their kit problems later." Well, it's been, what, at least a year since their updates? I'm not sure if Garen or Yi were even used in the LCS last year--and there are reasons for this.

GaleWinUnleashed2 votes

It has been stated that if Garen ever becomes competitively viable, he'll have to be nerfed immediately. He doesn't offer any counterplay if he's strong.

Cenobite Azaziel1 votes

Alistar doens't need any buffs. 2 CCs that can't be cleasened one of them a displacemente that can save lives. A -70% ult. Doesnt care what your armor is, your MR, just -70%.

If you like the ult you can play him as AP alistar, that heals AOE a ton of damage. Buffing his heal would made him better than soraka.

Serge THE GREAT2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cenobite Azaziel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E93HeFPx,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-01-14T03:25:42.422+0000)

Alistar doens't need any buffs. 2 CCs that can't be cleasened one of them a displacemente that can save lives. A -70% ult. Doesnt care what your armor is, your MR, just -70%.

If you like the ult you can play him as AP alistar, that heals AOE a ton of damage. Buffing his heal would made him better than soraka.

I already said that his AP ratios might not even need to be touched for his Q, W and E, but his E as an ability in general is just a weak heal that is worthless without Ardent Censer. And his passive is absolute trash. I'm fine with his kit thematic wise overall, but his E and passive are really out of place (with how they are currently implemented).

junglerboy161 votes

I basically said all of this almost exactly, but it got down voted to oblivion. Oh the ways of the Riot boards...

Anyway, I think adding a 4% Bonus HP ratio to the heal (2% to allies) and changing the mana cost to 50/55/60/65/70 from 40/50/60/70/80 would fix it entirely. It rewards alistar for tanking up, reduces the spam ability of it early when it might be too strong in lane, and allows for better spammability late when it is supposed to be spammed.

His passive should deal 6 (+1/2/3xlvl) damage and 50% bonus to minions. This wouldn't be enough to make laning OP, but late game it at least would compare to a sun fire cape at 42 DPS to champs instead of 24 DPS to champs

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I agree. Is that a heal ratio for bonus health? I think that could certainly benefit him.

I would like to retain the AP ratio on his passive. It makes it feel more rewarding to build him as an ap tank.

Azteryz1 votes

So just throwing ideas a good idea for his passive is when he ults the passive stays as long as his ult is on too and using a skill during this time would ad a bonus affect to his trample (dmg/speed/utility)Alistar

Blue Collar Bear3 votes

I feel like that would add a uniqueness to his kit that was previously not there.

It would add an interesting aspect to have to juggle your cooldowns to get what you want out of the passive.

Final Raid Boss1 votes

I hope they don't force him out of top lane, i like playing alistar but only top currently. i main jungle and would love to play him there but it's pretty much impossible at this point after those changes to his passive. I don't see why ali HAS to be a support, when he's a lot more fun in other roles. btw this is random but what the hell goes around ali when he uses his ult?

PhoenixSlayer131 votes

I'll be honest and say that I'm just happy he has hooves now instead of sandals.

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

They should really make Trample scale with Alistar's max health, along with it being permanently active during his Ult. They could even double its damage during that time. Just my two cents on how to give him a meaningful buff without putting him overboard.

His current passive does absolutely nothing except remove minion collision.

lDontLiftIcarry1 votes

I've played alistar since closed beta.

Riot hates a strong alistar.

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