Boards›Gameplay

Caitlyn is a textbook case of why you shouldn't listen to the front page of gameplay for balance.

Bârd··8 votes·3,673 views

Coming out of the "adc in 2017" period, Cait was doing as Cait always has.

Bullying in lane, falling off in the mid game, and scaling back into one of the better carries in the late game.

Was she strong? Sure, but not to an unreasonable degree. She was a popular champion with a low skill floor and a mid-high skill ceiling, so a high winrate makes a lot of sense.

Despite the weaknesses and counterplay of the champion being obvious, the boards screamed for months that Cait was utter cancer with no counterplay.

As a result, Cait got hit with a flurry of nerfs in season 7.

Not counting nerfs that were later reverted...

  • Removed hurricane stacking headshot.
  • Reduced passive attack speed.
  • Trap headshot AD ratio cut from 70% total AD to 40/55/70/85/100% bonus AD.
  • Trap reveal cut from 8 seconds to 3.
  • Trap duration cut from 90 seconds to 30/35/40/45/50.
  • Base HP reduced by 50.
  • HP regen reduced.

As a result, Cait no longer has a strong early game, while her mid-late game is pretty much unchanged.

A sub-par early game and an utterly shit mid game, all building up to being sub-par again in the late game.

Despite being the type of champion that has a higher winrate when balanced, she's sitting at a 47.75% win rate in plat+ according to champion.gg, and a 43.6% winrate in diamond+ according to League of Graphs.

Late game beasts like Vayne, Twitch, and Jinx are all rocking a 53.8-54.5% winrate against Cait because she's not strong enough to stop them early anymore, and can't compete with them in the mid-late game.

The only ADC's that are so bad that even Cait has a positive win rate against them are Lucian (who got shat on in preseason) and Cait herself (Don't ask me how this happened, ask whoever made champion.gg).

Tl;dr the boards bitched about Cait enough that she got gutted, despite not being that strong to begin with. She's now incapable of doing her damn job.

42 Comments

AFilthyCaitMain5 votes

Nerfs were 100% warranted. Riot just didnt want to nerf the real problem at first, which led to a lot of pain for Caitlyn. After they buffed her she felt 100% fine again. Now that preseason hit, she feels useless again.

Edit: They may have still overnerfed her. Not quite sure.

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

OP has no clue what he is talking about and twists facts and lies, nothing else. He should have atleast mentioned that the boards as everyone else was calling for nerfs to her no counterplay traps while riot moved on and nerfed everything about cait EXCEPT THE TRAP PROBLEM which they eventually did and overnerfed her. Not the communities fault riot doesn't know how to do their job. It's always the same with this damn biased excuse of a balance team, they have a gigantic boner for a feature like caitlyns traps so they hope that nerfing everything else will somehow work out just to realize that the problem doesn't go away by nerfing everything else. Want to know another example of this? Azir shurima shuffle.

LordGeovanni1 votes

https://www.cacuqecig.com/Public/vendor/kindeditor/attached/image/20170918/20170918073349_80918.jpg

I dont agree with the shuffle but i do think that taking away azir's ult's dash denial was alittle bad they should have just let people hit the floor after being pushed by his ult faster.

ModKnightsKemplar5 votes

I don't think this paints a complete picture of the story.

When those nerfs went out, Cait was still VERY dominant. It's true that the preseason changes made her even less relevant, but that doesn't mean that they nerfs at the time were bad. The nerfs were directed at a very strong champion at the time.

They didn't nerf her because Boards cried. They nerfed her because she was OP.

Scary Door4 votes

{quoted}

Coming out of the "adc in 2017" period, Cait was doing as Cait always has.

Bullying in lane, falling off in the mid game, and scaling back into one of the better carries in the late game.

Was she strong? Sure, but not to an unreasonable degree. She was a popular champion with a low skill floor and a mid-high skill ceiling, so a high winrate makes a lot of sense.

Despite the weaknesses and counterplay of the champion being obvious, the boards screamed for months that Cait was utter cancer with no counterplay.

As a result, Cait got hit with a flurry of nerfs in season 7.

Not counting nerfs that were later reverted...

  • Removed hurricane stacking headshot.
  • Reduced passive attack speed.
  • Trap headshot AD ratio cut from 70% total AD to 40/55/70/85/100% bonus AD.
  • Trap reveal cut from 8 seconds to 3.
  • Trap duration cut from 90 seconds to 30/35/40/45/50.
  • Base HP reduced by 50.
  • HP regen reduced.

As a result, Cait no longer has a strong early game, while her mid-late game is pretty much unchanged.

A sub-par early game and an utterly shit mid game, all building up to being sub-par again in the late game.

Despite being the type of champion that has a higher winrate when balanced, she's sitting at a 47.75% win rate in plat+ according to champion.gg, and a 43.6% winrate in diamond+ according to League of Graphs.

Late game beasts like Vayne, Twitch, and Jinx are all rocking a 53.8-54.5% winrate against Cait because she's not strong enough to stop them early anymore, and can't compete with them in the mid-late game.

The only ADC's that are so bad that even Cait has a positive win rate against them are Lucian (who got shat on in preseason) and Cait herself (Don't ask me how this happened, ask whoever made champion.gg).

Tl;dr the boards bitched about Cait enough that she got gutted, despite not being that strong to begin with. She's now incapable of doing her damn job.

I went into this post ready to disagree, but it's hard to argue what you're saying.

The only nerf I did completely agree with was the trap duration nerf.

I will say that I don't think Cait is "weak" so much as other adcs are just too strong at every phase of the game. Plus, with games being significantly shorter, Cait doesn't really scale into the late game anymore because "late game" is 20 minutes.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

It's not hard to argue against it. Cait pick/ban in every relevant elo up to LCS. Pretty much every team won who had cait (not talking about LCS here since competitive 5v5 still has more going on then one champ but laning phase was instant win for whoever had cait). 40%+ pickrate caitlyn and insane winrate (52%+) so much to the statistical argument. Riot nerfing everything that isn't the problem to then finally nerf what is actually the problem leaving her in a shitty state. So we have an OP lying and using misleading "quotes" like boards wanted her to get "gutted". Nope boards as everyone else called for nerfs to her traps, riot once again continued to nerf everything that isn't the problem until they eventually nerfed her traps as well.

It's always the same with these anti circlejerk circlejerk always lying and using misleading quotes and twisting facts to fit their own argumentation, pretty much doing what they claim the board circlejerk is/was doing.

Atleast he realized that "hypercarries" are actually STILL way too strong while riot just buffed FF again to break them once again good job on that one. Also i love how he says "counterplay being obvious" without mentioning the supposed counterplay because guess what there was none. You pick cait you win lane. That was the meta and twitch and the other hypercarry bullshits being overpowered as hell cannot be the excuse to leave caitlyn absolutely broken that she forms her own meta around her in a pick/ban status.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Scary Door,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E8K5QZWY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-05T23:19:45.174+0000)

I went into this post ready to disagree, but it's hard to argue what you're saying.

The only nerf I did completely agree with was the trap duration nerf.

I will say that I don't think Cait is "weak" so much as other adcs are just too strong at every phase of the game. Plus, with games being significantly shorter, Cait doesn't really scale into the late game anymore because "late game" is 20 minutes.

Honestly, part of the issue was that Riot refused to nerf her traps for so long and nerfed other parts of her kit instead.

From what I remember, her traps were always the main target of the complaints.

Ahristocats3 votes

almost as if she had 53% win rate 30% pick rate

and had 100% pick/ban in lcs

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Man posts like these while i hate many of the circlejerks here the anti circlejerk circlejerks aren't better. Caitlyn was completely fuckin busted. Riot pulled out their special of nerfing everything that isn't the problem to eventually nerf the problem and leave the champ in shittier.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

everything that isn't the problem

exactly what wasn't the problem?

Riot nerfed her attack speed/lvl base attack speed because caitlyn is not supposed to do well in teamfight, she's supposed to be good at sieging and controlling areas but then if she deals as much damage as other adcs in teamfight it wouldn't make sense to pick an other adc over caitlyn

then they nerfed her trap damage, THIS was not the problem the problem is that the traps denied people for a long time and was effectively better at zoning than anything else

eventually they reverted the trap damage nerf and nerfed the duration of traps

and she's fine now, as a cait player myself she doesn't need anything

vayne and ezreal just need nerfs

Rexxiee3 votes

Cait is really shit atm, shes basically the sona of adcs, overnerfed into oblivion.

Could use buffs.

chipndip13 votes

Late game damage beasts like Jinx?

We realize Jinx can't access her main steroid until she's already halfway won the fight, right?

Bârd1 votes

Generally, somebody is gonna die within a couple seconds of the initiation. Whether it's the enemy Leona getting shredded after diving on your mid or some poor Viktor getting dove on, somebody's gonna die (likely both).

With her high splash damage and long ranged abilities, she's getting kill participation.

As long as the list of poor saps being blown up at the start of the fight doesn't include Jinx, she's getting a passive proc.

She's not the best late game hypercarry. Even just going off crit-based teamfighting carries like Jinx, Trist and Twitch are generally better. That said, she still is a late game hypercarry.

Hell, she's apparently going to get buffs to her passive in the next cycle, so who knows. She might actually be meta when the season starts.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Generally, somebody is gonna die within a couple seconds of the initiation. Whether it's the enemy Leona getting shredded after diving on your mid or some poor Viktor getting dove on, somebody's gonna die (likely both).

With her high splash damage and long ranged abilities, she's getting kill participation.

As long as the list of poor saps being blown up at the start of the fight doesn't include Jinx, she's getting a passive proc.

She's not the best late game hypercarry. Even just going off crit-based teamfighting carries like Jinx, Trist and Twitch are generally better. That said, she still is a late game hypercarry.

Hell, she's apparently going to get buffs to her passive in the next cycle, so who knows. She might actually be meta when the season starts.

I love Jinx to bits, but her issue as a champ is that she has no real niche. Unlike Twitch, who, regardless of griping on the forums, Riot doesn't have to touch too much in order to keep him relatively balanced, Jinx is either generally oppressive or generally useless because she's just generally doing shit. She used to have a niche in her aoe presence, but crit item changes made it easier for other marksmen to cover that. Now she's kinda just bad, and buffs to make her not bad will just make X champs bad while she's good or really good.

Bârd1 votes

We'll just have to see how they approach the buffs.

I'm excited.

Warning Shot3 votes

As an avid caitlyn main from before the " caitlyn hype train" she's to the point that it feels like trash playing her now. She's still " fine" she just doesn't feel good to play anymore.

MrHaZeYo2 votes

You're so right, it's not funny.

KlydeFrog2 votes

cait is fine its ur build and runes that are crap.A. stop rushing ie its uselessB. stop using press the attack its useless and not as good as lethal tempo

AFilthyCaitMain3 votes

PTA isnt as good as tempo

what?

in general PTA is better. Even then footwork is 100% the best choice on Caitlyn for her poke, siege, kite playstyle.

KlydeFrog1 votes

see once again u think and do not understand the power that lethal tempo does

AFilthyCaitMain2 votes

Lethal tempo is just straight up terrible in this meta.

ADCs are going for as much sustain and shields as possible with relic shield and overheal

PTA is amazing for 3 auto trades early, and is still a good keystone late game

Tempo just kinda sits there not being even close to good until you start to scale up

KlydeFrog2 votes

its not but okay. lets see 6 sec cd and reliable or having to hit 3 things for a little extra damage

Bârd2 votes

Lethal Tempo has a 1.5 second delay, and relies on you personally being able to continue attacking. If you die, get CC'd, forced out of the fight, or simply can't reach anybody, it provides no value.

PTA is proc'd near instantly. Yeah, the "little extra damage" is nice, but they could remove it altogether and it would still be the better option because 12% teamwide damage amp is still insane.

KlydeFrog2 votes

it doesnt proc instant and as u say u get ccd die or what ever guess what homie u dead and its useless

Bârd1 votes

Not the case.

Once you've proc'd PTA, it's 12% damage amp for your entire team no matter what.

Even if you die immediately after, that poor Yorick now takes 12% extra damage from your Ori and Ornn. He will follow you into the shadow realm.

Moonfall Saber2 votes

Well I can't speak for the test of the boards but I have hated vayne amd how broken her entire kit is from the first time I saw her. I still ban her to this day. An adc with such a powerful niche should not be this good EVER!

Bârd1 votes

Vayne is a late game duelist-style hypercarry.

Pros

  • Can't easily be solo killed by most champions (even if she isn't strong yet, Condemn is strong disengage in a 1v1).
  • Mid game onward, nobody can reliably duel her.
  • Late game, attempting to duel her is suicide.
  • Anyone focused by a Vayne will die if they keep getting focused by Vayne.
  • Final Hour gives the stats of an extra BF sword item.
  • Incredible chasing.
  • Very fast on offense.
  • Very agile.
  • She double dips into her stats.

Cons

  • Shit early game. You can cheese level 1 with condemn and your team, but that's about it. When laning against Vayne, you're actually laning against her support and a minion with a fancy skin.
  • Everything revolves around your basic attacks; your only nuke is condemn, which is a very weak nuke.
  • Absolutely nothing in her kit lets her influence the fight further than 550 units from her. If most other ADC's gets chunked out of a teamfight, they can at least help from a distance with their spells, but Vayne can't do that.
  • No innate waveclear. This means that although she's a great duelist, she's poor at pushing.
  • If she has to retreat, she's not very fast.
  • Has no way of dealing with multiple assailants. She can condemn one away, but that does nothing to help her against the others.
  • As with most ADC's, getting locked down means instant death.

She's like if Fiora was ranged, but didn't have riposte.

Lauchmelder1 votes

{quoted} Tl;dr the boards bitched about Cait enough that she got gutted, despite not being that strong to begin with. She's now incapable of doing her damn job.

Caitlyn is a sieging ADC, she is still doing her job. Aka using her traps (which she places under your own tower) to zone you off her while she can savely hit down on your turret.

ZephyrDrake3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shuriman God,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E8K5QZWY,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-01-05T23:21:24.834+0000)

Caitlyn is a sieging ADC, she is still doing her job. Aka using her traps (which she places under your own tower) to zone you off her while she can savely hit down on your turret.

she is doing the job of sucking. No point in ever using her when you can just use any other ADC and just demolish turrets just as fast while actually having an impact. Yes she is good at sieging and nothing else... now if sieging was actually worth a damn currently you might have some point but you don't need her to get rid of turrets safely when turrets themselves are unable to do much except die and give free gold to the opponent

KlydeFrog1 votes

u know when peopel were using lethality varus and they raised the cd on his q well i had a idea which i used and went lethlity cait because her q does mor edamage less cd is why. literally net and q and aa kills anyone lol well that is with the old runes but what eves i still build her more or less the same and it works fine

Bârd1 votes

The red squiggly line is there for a reason.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

u know when peopel were using lethality varus and they raised the cd on his q well i had a idea which i used and went lethlity cait because her q does mor edamage less cd is why. literally net and q and aa kills anyone lol well that is with the old runes but what eves i still build her more or less the same and it works fine

oh yes, the fabled combo that sometimes kills something... most of the time it doesn't yet somehow "it kills anyone lol"

KlydeFrog1 votes

Trap eq thunderlords dead

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Trap eq thunderlords dead

thunderlord... yet there is no thunderlord keystone... also hoping that someone actually lands on your trap and that you have enough time to get close enough to be able to land a net and do the combo without being blown up yourself... sure tell me when that happens with any amount of reliability and when that would be more useful than just using any other ADC that would be able to do similar amounts of damage without so much setup

KlydeFrog1 votes

for starters i said before int he old runes and B. lethality works on her quite well due to her q poke

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

for starters i said before int he old runes and B. lethality works on her quite well due to her q poke

Q poke... if you are consistently landing your Q with that gigantic windup then i fear the braindead people you are playing against

KlydeFrog1 votes

its actually easier to hit her q over varus q. also you have traps to help you which makes your q do full damage

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

its actually easier to hit her q over varus q. also you have traps to help you which makes your q do full damage

"easier" sure if you say so

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

It's kinda funny and also depressing that whenever an adc like caitlyn is actually finally balanced adc whoreshippers immediately want to buff them back into broken state instead of bringing the other overpowered picks down.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

It's kinda funny and also depressing that whenever an adc like caitlyn is actually finally balanced adc whoreshippers immediately want to buff them back into broken state instead of bringing the other overpowered picks down.

"balanced" sure, Cait is so balanced that she is worthless. That is not a balanced champion. She is weak. Love it when people just want ADCs to be troll picks and complain the instant a WEAK champion is buffed or is being thought about being buffed

Acheron161 votes

This is why I am afraid every time they randomly buff one of my favourite champions. I'm always afraid that this will be the buff that will break it and then the slew of innevitable nerfs will come, rendering it unplayable for years to come.

Look at Lucian, he's still trash nearly a year after the continuous nerfs broke him.

five20181 votes

Preseason 9- Still useless.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Bârd

Very Serious Hurricane Petition
Gameplay118 comments
369
votes
A petition for Lollipoppy
Story, Art, & Sound50 comments
365
votes
Petition to replace Ryze with Annie in the "Battle Training" tutorial.
Gameplay88 comments
258
votes
Singed buff request
Gameplay47 comments
255
votes
PSA: if you have an off meta jungler
Gameplay358 comments
247
votes
Zz'rot portal now takes 5 hits to kill no matter what
Gameplay84 comments
244
votes