Can we have Juggernaut AND Cinderhulk?

TehNACHO·Mar 6, 2015·31 votes·3,456 views

One of the biggest problems I noticed in the past is that Juggernaut really mostly helps Fighters more than it helps actual Tanks, due to how Tenacity tends to work. Now with Cinderhulk rolling around, tanks are going to be getting the help they need, but now Fighters are getting the (slightly) short end of the stick in the lack of another Tenacity item for them to access.

Can we keep Cinderhulk and Juggernaut? Both parties (Jungle Tanks and Jungle Fighters) would be happy, methinks.

65 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarMar 6, 201510 votes

Fighters don't need help. Your argument is sound, other than that. If they needed that item, I would tend to agree with you, but isn't warrior better anyway?

TehNACHOMar 6, 20156 votes

Depends.

For example, Tank-like Fighters (Volibear comes to mind) really like what Juggernaut offers over what Warrior tends to enable them.

ModKnightsKemplarMar 6, 20157 votes

Fair. But on voli, I don't see why losing the item is bad. On the contrary, I think Cinderhulk is designed to help champions like Voli. I mean, it's going to make his health scaling EVEN BETTER. Is that not the madness that was needed to bring him back into the meta? I think that's way better than some tenacity that he can easily pick up on boots.

Again, open to being corrected.

TehNACHOMar 6, 20151 votes

Ahh, I was specifically comparing Warrior to Juggernaut with the Volibear example. Cinderhulk vs Juggernaut for Volibear specifically would probably be more of a debated thing.

ModKnightsKemplarMar 6, 20152 votes

Ok. Not to beat a dead horse then, but who do you think Jugg is better for than Cinderhulk? To me, that's the issue of your post. I don't see why we would want both of those.

For any given champ, I would think Warrior or Cinderhulk was better than Juggernaut. In other words, there's no reason to keep it, as you suggest.

Right now, I only see Juggernaut on people who would rather have Cinderhulk.

TehNACHOMar 6, 20152 votes

In my personal experience, there are the Raid Boss champions. Think Trundle, Jax, Xin Zhao, all the champions who want a combination of Tenacity, 40% CDR, and a crapton of Tankiness to complement TF+BotRK and the Raid Bosses' already built in hyper scaling steroids. Juggernaut contributes much more to these wants than Cinderhulk does, and also allows space for Ninja Tabi, which is one of the better items for maximizing a Raid Bosses' dueling potential. Yeah, I guess you can argue a (for example) Xin Zhao who gets fed early can afford to go more damage based and buy Warrior, but getting fed early is not a feat achievable in every single game.

AbsoluteSadmanMar 6, 20151 votes

What do you mean by "raid boss" champs

TehNACHOMar 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Think Trundle, Jax, Xin Zhao,

For some quick examples.

Raid Bosses are Auto Attack/DPS based champs, generally melee, with gigantic built in steroids either or both offensive and defensive in nature. They tend to have a powerful auto attack reset on low cool down, which when combined with a TF and 40% CDR, allows their DPS to scale incredibly hard without too much slot investment. Their abilities also tend to have terrible scaling despite each individual activation being powerful, for example there isn't any way to augment Trundle's Frozen Domain through raw stats, once again reinforcing 40% CDR.

Standard Raid Bosses tend to build these items: item 3153 item 3078 item 3111 item 3065 item 3110 , supplemented by a 6th item with 10% CDR or having 10% CDR in their runes and masteries.

BluePolarizerMar 6, 20151 votes

On jungle Jax, Xin and Trundle I always go BoRK/devourer then full tank:

Jax XinZhao Trundle

item 3153 item 3710 item 3143 item 3110 item 3065 item 3111

this is because triforce is too expensive to rush on junglers while providing no sustain (especially important on Jax), doesn't have a slow and doesnt have scaling damage. In addition, Triforce falls off somewhat late game on these champs since they all have huge AS steroids, so eventually their autoattacks surpass their spellblade procs. Jax/Xin/Trundle with this build all surpass 2.0 attacks per second with their steroids maxed, and that is basically 3 autos in 1.5 seconsd = 1 spellblade proc. 3 autos on a 45 stack devourer late game (70 damage total) is 210 magic damage, which is stronger than the 230 or so physical damage from a triforce in that time.

AbsoluteSadmanMar 6, 20152 votes

So, pretty much champions you have to 1v2/1v3 to take down?

TehNACHOMar 6, 20151 votes

One way of thinking about it.

LankPantsMar 7, 20153 votes

Think Trundle, Jax, Xin Zhao, all the champions who want a combination of Tenacity, 40% CDR, and a crapton of Tankiness to complement TF+BotRK and the Raid Bosses' already built in hyper scaling steroids.

Every champ you listed gets good mileage out of warrior. They can all also use devourer. I'd never really consider Juggernaut on Xin or Jax, they both scale too well with warrior/devour respectively.

Raid Bosses

I think you're misusing this term. A raid boss is an unkillable tanky bruiser who can pump out decent damage even without necessarily building for damage. I'd consider champs like Cho'gath and Shyvana to be raid bosses, certainly not a Xin or Jax, Trundle maybe. If you build straight defence on Jax/Xin you fall of super hard and just do nothing.

AbyssphereMar 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Ok. Not to beat a dead horse then, but who do you think Jugg is better for than Cinderhulk? To me, that's the issue of your post. I don't see why we would want both of those.

For any given champ, I would think Warrior or Cinderhulk was better than Juggernaut. In other words, there's no reason to keep it, as you suggest.

Right now, I only see Juggernaut on people who would rather have Cinderhulk.

Only champ I can think of is Elise. Juggernaut gives her the non-commital tankiness she so loves and tenacity is quite cool too, whereas Cinderhulk is a tad less vaulable than Juggernaut if you don't make use of the Sunfire Cape passive and Elise can't afford to stick around in a team fight letting it ramp up, so it's basically useless.

LankPantsMar 7, 20151 votes

Only champ I can think of is Elise. Juggernaut gives her the non-commital tankiness she so loves and tenacity is quite cool too, whereas Cinderhulk is a tad less vaulable than Juggernaut if you don't make use of the Sunfire Cape passive and Elise can't afford to stick around in a team fight letting it ramp up, so it's basically useless.

This is a problem with Elise IMO not the itemisation. The item that Elise should logicically want to build as an AP jungler is item 3708 but her ratios are so undertuned she can't.

AbyssphereMar 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This is a problem with Elise IMO not the itemisation. The item that Elise should logicically want to build as an AP jungler is but her ratios are so undertuned she can't.

Oh I definitely agree. Just saying that she's at least one jungler who'd rather have Juggernaut.

Of course the fact that her ideal item is one that she doesn't scale with and thats primary attraction is making her tanky without actually expecting her to tank damage to be worthwhile probably says a lot about just how terrible she is right now.

WheatloafMar 7, 20151 votes

I'm of a camp that thinks Elise could use the Nidalee treatment, i.e. making her two forms accomplish more specific things so she's more "I have a time when I want to be in each of these forms" and less "I have 6 abilities." As the game currently stands, her and Jayce are both reasonably difficult to keep balanced.

kunkudunkMar 7, 20151 votes

Elise is so over nerfed right now anyway that the item she gets is almost unimportant. She needs buffs and if she got them she would probably get magus.

Silents429Mar 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Depends.

For example, Tank-like Fighters (Volibear comes to mind) really like what Juggernaut offers over what Warrior tends to enable them.

Um. Cinder is a better pick on Voli then Juggernaut, with the bonus health and passive.

junglerboy16Mar 7, 20151 votes

Voli also is a health stacking DPS fighter, so Cinderhulk is everything he could want because +25% bonus health makes his W damage insane.

1st HanarSpectreMar 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Fighters don't need help. Your argument is sound, other than that. If they needed that item, I would tend to agree with you, but isn't warrior better anyway?

Elise is very sad about the loss of juggernaut. Even sadder than usual. item 3070 Elise Please think of the spiders.

ModKnightsKemplarMar 6, 20151 votes

Another fair example. Didn't think about her, either. This is why I asked. :)

In the future, I will think of the spiders.

Silents429Mar 6, 20153 votes

Any of the mentioned champions who would still need Juggernaut either work better with cinder, or should be getting warrior then a randiuns.

Juggernaut is somewhat useless at this point.

TehNACHOMar 6, 20151 votes

Raid Bosses tend to undermine this rule. They want slot efficient Tenacity and CDR above all else, which Juggernaut has an Cinderhulk lacks.

Silents429Mar 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Raid Bosses tend to undermine this rule. They want slot efficient Tenacity and CDR above all else, which Juggernaut has an Cinderhulk lacks.

Right..

But keeping an item an incredibly small amount of champions would take is stupid. The item is for tanks and all the tanks are going to use cinder, it has no real reason to be kept in the game.

TehNACHOMar 6, 20155 votes

Getting rid of an item based on the argument only an incredibly small amount of champions is equally stupid, to be frank (^ ^).

Silents429Mar 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Getting rid of an item based on the argument only an incredibly small amount of champions is equally stupid, to be frank (^ ^).

Given they have removed other items based on usage before.

Juggernaut was made for tank junglers not fighters, they aren't going to keep it, because the tank junglers have a newer and better item. Fighters shouldn't be getting such a load of tank stats from 1 item.

ModKnightsKemplarMar 6, 20152 votes

I dunno, the other people in this thread are starting to convince me. There's no harm done to the game for leaving it in, frankly. That's why it isn't stupid to do so. If some Jax/Elise/Trundle builds can use it, fine. It isn't a toxic item.

ModKnightsKemplarMar 6, 20154 votes

Disagree. Essence Reaver falls into this category, and I would be pissed if it were gone. Works wonders for me on Varus.

JefftiffyMar 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Raid Bosses tend to undermine this rule. They want slot efficient Tenacity and CDR above all else, which Juggernaut has an Cinderhulk lacks.

Idk I like to build Devourer on Raid Bosses. That extra burst damage is extremely nice especially when you are AS based. Generally Tenacity doesn't do much when your goal is to dive the enemy team blow someone up and disrupt the team. If you kill someone and put a decent amount of damage on their team combined with how much knock ups there are now. It just isn't worth buying tenacity, I would rather have the scaling damage.

TehNACHOMar 6, 20151 votes

More of a preference thing at this point then. Most knock ups can be dodged, and (at least when my ping isn't trying to impress me with how high it can go) I usually do my part not to walk right into a given champion's knock ups. More instantaneous stuns on the other hand...

Besides that, most Raid Bosses already have the built in damage to hurt a hell of a lot even without TF and BotRK, so overloading at that point is just slot inefficient in my mind.

AuryielMar 6, 20153 votes

Tenacity shouldn't be easy to obtain (in terms of how many items offer it)

It's an incredibly powerful stat and having it pretty much only on boots makes itemizing for it enough of a sacrifice that you kinda have to think about it

Champion SkinMar 7, 20151 votes

Though from the looks of it... tenacity will become less and less useful (Recently riot seems to have been favoring knock ups/knock backs and such which tenacity has no effect on)

Rinky DinkyMar 7, 20152 votes

Riot has said that knock ups will be reduced by tenacity soon.

Expect changes in future patches.

https://twitter.com/RiotMorello/status/573361985179545600

Champion SkinMar 7, 20151 votes

That is interesting and good to hear Though even with that change knock ups will still be better then stuns Because currently QSS and cleanse don't work on them (you are still airborn but I think you might then be able to flash as it would remove the mini stun as you are knocked up) And Knock ups also stop all mid air movement abilities (like if Tristana is hit by a knock up as she is jumping or Jarvan E + Q or Shyvana ult... the most common scenario I think it probably Thresh knocking Leona out of her E dash and this only works because it is a knock back or knock up)

Though I think the fact that knock ups stop movement is a good thing.. if you are able to hit a champion mid dash/jump you should be able to stop them though I feel a bit sad for Shyvana if there was even more things that could mess with her ult which she relies on (blinks are obviously impossible to stop as they are instant)

And hopefully they will eventually make it so that QSS and Cleanse works on knock ups... Like seriously QSS works on suppression (which is only ults) but not on knock ups..

SpecterVonBarenMar 7, 20153 votes

I guess they could put tenacity on Warrior... Yes I know it's a horrible, terrible abomination of an idea, but someone had to say it.

TehNACHOMar 7, 20154 votes

Burn the witch!

LankPantsMar 7, 20152 votes

Why do fighters need another jungle item? They've already got two directed at them in item 3707 and item 3710 . Its not like no fighter could ever build cinderhulk anyway. I'm going to build cinderhulk a lot on my Shyvana for example.

vikenMar 7, 20152 votes

Ohh no we already have a meta that revolves around bruisers, they don't need much more right now. It actually might be juggernaut enchantment that makes them so strong right now and I might be totally wrong but stuff like Xin Zhao, Udyr, JARVAN, LEE SIN, VI(do you see what I mean here) shouldn't get tankiness, tenacity, and CDR all smashed into their jungle item. IMO the change to Cinderhulk is a power shift over to Tank junglers, which is awesome.

TourianMar 7, 20151 votes

The current meta revolves around assassins. Get your shit together man.

vikenMar 7, 20152 votes

I think EVERY assassin in the game or at least every popular assassin last season got horrribly gutted or at least received SOME form of nerf lol minus LB and Yasuo(technically not an assassin) There's not too many of them that are still playable.

Vicarious117Mar 7, 20152 votes

I'll miss juggernaut on my current Aatrox build, since he doesn't need anymore help with clearing camps, but that being said cinderhulk definitely won't be bad instead and other then my little preference I cannot think of a single champion who would benefit more from juggernaut over cinderhulk.

Yeah you lose somethings like the tenacity and a small amount of health, but you get so much more form cinderhulk instead that even if both were in the game NO ONE would ever bother to waste their gold on juggernaut if they could get cinderhulk.

VeriskeriMar 6, 20151 votes

My thing is now what's the purpose of buying Sunfire's with this change/addition. The passive out damages Sunfire's earlier and cost significantly less overall. I think Riot is up to no good again. O_O

TehNACHOMar 6, 20152 votes

Cinderhulk's new component is becoming part of Sunfire Cape's build path. I imagine they'd follow a similar path and also work on Sunfire Cape then.

VeriskeriMar 6, 20151 votes

But what's the purpose of buying it if the Bami's Cinder outscales it? (Speaking from a jungle standpoint)

TehNACHOMar 6, 20151 votes

...I think you completely misunderstood what I said.

Bami's Cinder is now a component of Sunfire Cape. Most likely, Sunfire Cape's passive will also be reworked to have Bami's Cinder's scaling.

JefftiffyMar 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

...I think you completely misunderstood what I said.

Bami's Cinder is now a component of Sunfire Cape. Most likely, Sunfire Cape's passive will also be reworked to have Bami's Cinder's scaling.

Which ironically was nerfed because it had too much early game. Moving it to late game will be quite ironic.

TehNACHOMar 6, 20152 votes

...Or totally expected.

If it was nerfed early game but you still want the item to be a relevant item in the game, move its strengths to the late game.

revliledpembrokeMar 6, 20151 votes

There isn't, I think they share unique passives and won't stack. Not 100% sure though.

Celeste BenalMar 6, 20151 votes

I'm of the mind that Cinderhulk on its own is strictly worse than Juggernaut. Less HP, no tenacity, no CDR. Same cost. As a jungler, I don't treally want to buy second health item just to make Cinderhulk "not quite so bad". I can deal without the Tenacity by getting boots. Or I can get the CDR with a different set of boots. But not both.

Fortunately, CDR is a lot easier to come by. So I'll likely get the item 3111 and my CDR elsewhere. But its a straight up nerf to tanky junglers right when they don't need it.

PartholonianMar 7, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celeste Benal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E4AZIz9G,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-03-06T19:50:07.865+0000)

As a jungler, I don't treally want to buy second health item just to make Cinderhulk "not quite so bad".

Why not? If you're a tanky jungler, aren't you building something like item 3102 item 3065 item 3143 item 3190 or item 3800 anyway? Or, if you really want an offensive item that helps your team, maybe item 3071 item 3022 or item 3050 .