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I feel like League needs some comeback mechanics for losing teams

Reynard the ƒox··82 votes·5,336 views

So I came up with two in hopes of starting a discussion that maybe Riot will read. With 5.23, winning teams are rewarded just for being ahead with minion pushing, so here's a couple gameplay mechanics I thought of to give the losing team a hand:

Dragon's Mercy Killing the Dragon while the enemy team has 2 or more Dragons than your team awards 2 stacks of Dragon buff. (example, if you're down 0-3 on Dragons but your team comes together and manages to take one, your team would get both the % AD/AP boost and the % dmg to towers)

Nashor's Mercy If a team slays Baron Nashor while at a significant gold disadvantage (I don't know what a good amount would be, I'll leave that up to the professional game designers), then that team gets +20% extra gold, duration, and buff effects. Again, I'm not a pro game dev, so the actual number of 20% may be way off.

The goal here is not to 'reward' teams for getting behind, but to give a losing team options for what to do when the game isn't going well. Getting 2 stacks of Dragon or bonuses to Baron buff is a big deal, but if a team wants to pull it off, they'll have to work for it. Strategize, coordinate, and work together. It's a team game, after all.

Right now losing teams' only option is to desperately play defense, especially with minion pushing in 5.23, but this change would give them a reason to make offensive plays even from behind. This also encourages the winning team to be diligent with their warding, so as not to lose their dragon lead or carelessly give up an important Baron to a sneaky move.

Heading over to the E-sports side of things, I feel like these changes would entice losing teams to come out of their base and try for that game-changing Dragon or Baron. The best teams are extremely well-coordinated, so managing the back-and-forth of taking/defending towers while keeping an eye on Dragon and Baron now calls for more intense strategic moves than the roflstomp nature of the game requires at the moment. Not only would we have more big teamfights and LC$bigplays, it also opens up new avenues for LC$bigcomebacks.

And here's another one I just thought of while writing this post:

Regicide If you kill an enemy who has significantly more gold than you, you gain some extra gold for the kill based on the gold discrepancy. Like above, I'll leave the actual math and numbers to Riot.

Again, this isn't a free reward for a player who fed, he actually has to work for it and get a kill by outplaying his opponent, or working with his team to ensure he gets a few last hits on champions in teamfights.

68 Comments

chipndip122 votes

They already put in answers for losing teams: Shut downs give global gold and don't fully reset bounties + minions shove harder to you so you don't have to stick your neck out just to farm them. To boot, you don't have to buy Homeguards, the Rift Herald means you don't have to contest drag if you don't feel like you're up for it, and since towers are weaker, a good play in the late game means you can make VERY LARGE gains off of one team fight.

I don't see why we'd need even more on top of all this stuff.

dunkeroni4 votes

If my team is behind, I don't feel like the enemy minions being stronger benefits me much.

chipndip17 votes

{quoted}

If my team is behind, I don't feel like the enemy minions being stronger benefits me much.

They only hit harder to push harder. The opponent is trying to end the game faster, so their minions naturally pushing will force them to come to your side of the map to cs, making them have to gravitate towards objectives. On your side, however, them pushing allows you to safely farm assuming the opponent isn't being decisive enough about pushing their advantage. If you don't leave your allies to flop around like fish, dying left and right, you can hopefully pick up some kills since the opponents have to risk their safety to farm, not the other way around.

Redaga9 votes

It dont work like that on practice.

if a team has the advantage to power up the minions, then now the whole team can just focus on 1 lane while the minion push the other ones

if a single one on the looser team goes to farm minion/ save a dying Turret. that makes the team fights 5 vs 4 in a game that they are already underhanded.

chipndip14 votes

{quoted}

It dont work like that on practice.

if a team has the advantage to power up the minions, then now the whole team can just focus on 1 lane while the minion push the other ones

if a single one on the looser team goes to farm minion/ save a dying Turret. that makes the team fights 5 vs 4 in a game that they are already underhanded.

Nothing works any one way in practice. You're not gonna have a huge wave at your turrets every second just because your minions hit harder. If anything, it'll become harder to set up a big wave since they'll be thinning out enemy minions faster rather than building numbers.

Look, people are asking for comeback mechanics. The truth is that Riot already put new ones in the game, but people are too blinded by those stomping their shit in to notice. This patch is just separating the good players from the players that know how to identify what needs to be done on the map...aka the great players. Sure it could use some refining, but this general direction is the right direction. I don't think it needs more handouts.

Zenthon Prime3 votes

People asked for comeback mechanics, and Riot chose a terrible one. It is that simple. Minions autopushing is not a comeback mechanic unless you have complete or nearly complete team coordination and everyone has great map control abilities. It works perfectly in a magical utopia where everyone is a Masters-tier player and is in a 5-man party. We do not live in that world. Not only that, but it's a double-edged sword: if you can't take advantage of it (which happens in nearly all scenarios), it is a very powerful win-more mechanic for reasons previously mentioned here.

As a lower ELO player (which I define as Gold and below), this change is game-warping to the extent that it makes the game drastically less fun. That is the reality. I could honestly care less about how it affects the upper ELOs, because I know we could make some better mechanic that helps both ends of the spectrum instead of this mess.

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

People asked for comeback mechanics, and Riot chose a terrible one. It is that simple. Minions autopushing is not a comeback mechanic unless you have complete or nearly complete team coordination and everyone has great map control abilities. It works perfectly in a magical utopia where everyone is a Masters-tier player and is in a 5-man party. We do not live in that world. Not only that, but it's a double-edged sword: if you can't take advantage of it (which happens in nearly all scenarios), it is a very powerful win-more mechanic for reasons previously mentioned here.

As a lower ELO player (which I define as Gold and below), this change is game-warping to the extent that it makes the game drastically less fun. That is the reality. I could honestly care less about how it affects the upper ELOs, because I know we could make some better mechanic that helps both ends of the spectrum instead of this mess.

Minions auto-pushing is both a snowballing mechanic AND a comeback mechanic. If minions are always on your side of the field, but I do nothing, you're getting safe gold to farm it with. If they're always on your side of the field and I'm playing into them properly, I'm getting pressure on your turrets more easily. It's a double edged sword.

And you're still ignoring that shutting down snowballs gives GLOBAL GOLD NOW. How much more help do you want? Just shut down the snowballs and get back into the game. It's not that complex.

Zenthon Prime2 votes

You completely failed to get my point. That is: minion pushing is POTENTIALLY both a comeback mechanic and snowball mechanic, however, in practice the comeback portion is very hard to use, requiring full or nearly full team coordination. At any rank lower than at least Platinum (if not higher), that is essentially impossible. It is also arguably more potent and objectively easier to obtain than the shutdown gold bonus.

chipndip15 votes

{quoted}

You completely failed to get my point. That is: minion pushing is POTENTIALLY both a comeback mechanic and snowball mechanic, however, in practice the comeback portion is very hard to use, requiring full or nearly full team coordination. At any rank lower than at least Platinum (if not higher), that is essentially impossible. It is also arguably more potent and objectively easier to obtain than the shutdown gold bonus.

https://40.media.tumblr.com/f6d48174f2f66ea30f0f78e31f4d9a55/tumblr_ngt0gcHv0d1ti7knfo1_500.jpg

The game's balance shouldn't suffer because low elos don't know how to play. Comebacks still need to be earned, not given out.

Changeling4 votes

Lol when 80% of the community is Gold and below.....we in truth make Riot all that money.

Sona Ping2 votes

But that doesn't matter in regards to balance at all. One wants to balance things based on potential, how it can be used, not on how some section of the player base uses it.

Like, you don't take an SMG that has good damage and then buff it's damage even more just because a section of players are using it in situations beyond its effective range.

chipndip14 votes

{quoted}

Lol when 80% of the community is Gold and below.....we in truth make Riot all that money.

Low elo players are NOT the ones to go to for game balancing. Truth tastes like Robitussin, but you need it.

Biffolo2 votes

Well, shouldn't it be harder to make a comeback? You fell behind, you need to really work and use that coordination to make said comeback happen.

Redaga2 votes

IMO then only way to come back from a game will be similar as how you make a miracle comeback at at the end of a long game. Re-spawn cooldown/ dead time/ etc

Normally you manage comebacks in a game long one when the respawn time goes into 50-60-70 seconds, so when a team get it S**t together and manage an ACE, that whole minute, is enough to push a whole lane or even push and destroy the nexus.

so, using the same Team Level Advantage (TLA) that Riot used in 5.23 for the minions.

TEAM LEVEL ADVANTAGE The average level of your team minus the average level of the enemy team. Not total levels and not necessarily #cleannumbers. MAX TEAM LEVEL ADVANTAGE 3.0

then, we get Death Timer and add + (TLA x 7 seconds)

so, if a Champion dies and his DT (Death Timer) is 20 seconds, but his team is mauling the other one so the TLA is 1.8 then

DT + (TLA x7) = 20 + (1.8x7) = 20 + 12.6 = 33 Seconds to respawn

So lets say the winning team has a lv 10 darius, while the looser team has a lv 10 xerath (so their DT will be the same) and cause of average lvl of the team the winning team has a TLA of 1.8

if both Xerath and Darius will to kill each other. Xerath will Re spawn after 20 seconds, while Darius will respawn after 33

that 13 seconds head start is the advantage you will get to try to recover either farming, or getting a super monster or is 13 seconds that a team fight will be 5 vs 4 so you get a chance to win it. etc.

Shaabanglyy2 votes

{quoted}

Nothing works any one way in practice. You're not gonna have a huge wave at your turrets every second just because your minions hit harder. If anything, it'll become harder to set up a big wave since they'll be thinning out enemy minions faster rather than building numbers.

Look, people are asking for comeback mechanics. The truth is that Riot already put new ones in the game, but people are too blinded by those stomping their shit in to notice. This patch is just separating the good players from the players that know how to identify what needs to be done on the map...aka the great players. Sure it could use some refining, but this general direction is the right direction. I don't think it needs more handouts.

I agree totally. Other examples of comeback mechanics are the new blue warding trinket for example. It has a huge range and super short CD. Yeah, the ward is weaker because everything needs a drawback, but this trinket lets you safely ward important areas of the map that the winning team might currently have control over because #winning.

How many times in the late game have you gotten the feeling, "we are losing, they are probably setting up a Baron. If they get this now, we don't stand a chance!" Only to then walk into your jungle and get face stomped because the enemy set up 6 wards in the top half of your jungle.

The trinket lets you throw a ward over there near baron from absurdly far away and see if its necessary to stick your neck out or not.

I like what Riot is doing!

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

Honestly I don't get the feeling the enemy wants to end the game faster when they just sit there and spam taunt by the nexus till our team respawns. It's more of a " Lets rub this victory in the enemy's face" feeling from that.

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BrOJ7i4i,comment-id=0008000000000001,timestamp=2015-12-02T10:08:06.945+0000)

Honestly I don't get the feeling the enemy wants to end the game faster when they just sit there and spam taunt by the nexus till our team respawns. It's more of a " Lets rub this victory in the enemy's face" feeling from that.

At that point, you lost regardless, so...

And even then, in that rare chance you DO come back, guess who's fault it is? Theirs for not ending.

Melledoneus1 votes

There's actually a mechanic being tested on the PBE called "Equalize." It gives the enemy team enough gold and objectives to be on par with the winning team. While it doesn't exactly address many issues, I thought that was pretty cool.

manbearswine8 votes

Ok honestly,no,I detest this idea,no comeback mechanics,ever.

You don't like how the game snowballs? fine,reduce snowballing.

If you've been screwing up the entire game and then the enemy screws up once you shouldn't get an extra for it,you still screwed up more,you don't deserve to.

And fuck the dota 2 cumback mechanics as well.

The Yetii Rider5 votes

Well bounties already give your team gold for killing someone on a spree.

The Exalted by Baron Nashor buff is a huge enough gain on its own, especially coupled with the 1500 team gold you get AND denying it to your opponents.

Dragon's Mercy sounds like a good idea though.

Raidarc5 votes

Gonna be honest. That dragon's mercy thing. I would NEVER get dragon. I would let the enemy get it on purpose while I focus my attention elsewhere taking more valuable objectives. Then when it got to the point where I could grab 2 buffs for 1, I'd jump on it while more than likely being ahead and having more map control.

Deaeras4 votes

I actually like the minion changes, it provides more gold for losing teams.

BluePolarizer5 votes

what elo are you? this question directly affects how players respond to the pushing waves. In my elo, if you are forced to split off to farm a wave that will otherwise take tower and snowball themselves even further, you'll either get collapsed on 5v1, the rest of your team gets engaged on 5v4, or they force your team off a turret to get the minion snowball rolling there and rotate to the least defended of your other turrets and repeat...

Rundus13 votes

Try a 1, 3, 1 comp then. For instance, I often have friends who do this comp with a Trynd/Kass top, Shaco jg, Ori mid, and a Lucian-Janna bot. The 3 mid have loads of peel, as do the two pushing other lanes. If enemies attempt to stop any pushes, all 3 groups have kill potential and can cap jg objectives if they get caught waiting around for an opening or for enemies to leave. You just need good ward coverage and a bit of retreat strats.

BluePolarizer1 votes

This is an extremely specific comp that relies on Shaco snowballing and the enemy not straight up engaging mid. It also has very low pushing potential from the Shaco, while Lucian is easily outcarried by basically any ADC. Ori also has no engage to put her ball on except Shaco who explodes instantly if he tries anything. Meanwhile, Garen, Mundo or Gnar would be able to either outright destroy (Kassadin) or brickwall (Tryndamere) one splitpusher. Now you have a 4v3 situation mid, but with 2 lower damage carries and 1 0 damage support, against 4 champs with high damage, engage and tankiness.

Gnar DrMundo Ahri Tristana Brand would absolutely destroy this team.

It isn't even a specific comp since you can replace Ahri with any mobile or long ranged mid, Gnar with Garen or Malphite, Mundo with any tanky engager like Vi or Lee, Trist with almost any long range ADC and brand with Vel'Koz or any engage tank.

Rundus11 votes

My bad on Lucian. Trist is infinitely better in the 1, 3, 1 comp. Also, the point of that comp is to NOT FIGHT. Your whole team had peel. Loads of peel and pushing power. In addition, Trund can easily destroy Garen or Mundo if he can stay even or get ahead in lane, but he wont be fighting much. Every member gets blue trinket lv 9 if needed and you legit just put loads of pressure down. The entire point is to out rotate the enemy and put them in a tight spot. Brand would only be good if the splitpush oriented team suddenly decided its better to teamfight. If they just keep apart they can constantly either separate the enemies or waste their time if they group. If they warded well, Trynd and Shaco won't ever die and all mid has to do is peel any and all engage. Certain teams will beat this comp, but you'll find a lot of the current snowball champs aren't a problem, but more of an inconvenience. If one tries to take tower, and your team did their job and farmed instead of feeding, you'll be able to take them if you are either splitpusher and are a)equal in gold with them or b) catch them trying to take a turret. Shaco can snowball if you want, but you don't need a Shaco. you just need slippery splitpush. A Yi with blue trinket will work okay. Rek can do it too. Shaco is just my go too because he's soooo slippery. As for engage tanks, that's what the peel is for. Unless Sion dives you all with a 3 man ult on your mid, an ori with a janna and a tristy ult should be fine for peel.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Like I said it's a very low elo strategy that doesn't work in high elo. I've already explained why. It fails to engage like a Gnar flash-ult or an Ahri catch on literally anyone, and it fails to superior siege. It fails to anyone that can brickwall Trynd. What is Trynd going to do if Mundo defends tower? Trynd needs way more gold than Mundo to successfully dive him. You are putting the poorest person on your team + the richest and 2nd richest, vs. their richest, 2nd richest, 3rd richest and poorest. How is that going to work out lol? They straight up outstat you by more than 50%. In silver and gold, I play shit like AD Soraka and still stomp just because I'm mechanically and strategically better. I only give credit to a strategy if it's been proven to work in plat+.

Rundus11 votes

As it does. You see this crap all the time and it's a pain. You aren't thinking about it right. Trynd isn't taking Mundo on unless he can (I guess I was unclear on that earlier, as you aren't the only one to say something about that), he's pushing out the lane and leaving the moment Mundo shows up. You go farm the jg or head mid for a gank. You can also push and TP for an objective if you want a 5v4 drag fight. Mundo can only follow so fast if he doesn't see you start TPing and you can get the advantage. Additionally, if your peel team baits a drag and gets Mundo's TP, you get a tower, if not two. As for pairing the richest and 2nd richest and poorest against 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th, that assumes top is 4th (js) but that is irrelevant. Engage comps are countered by more peel then they have engage. Gnar flash-ult? Janna ult. Ahri ult-flash-charm? Would you like a Janna nado, a Trist ult or an Ori ult? Maybe they have a Leona? Just don't cluster up and Janna can outpeel her engage. Maybe they have all three plus a mobile adc? Then it entirely becomes a skill match-up. If They hit more engage then you have peel, you done goofed. Leona will have to ult, as will Ahri to get even close unless they flash. Then you have flash too. You can always say "Oh x engage counters peel" but it never keeps "Y peel from stopping x engage." I personally have issues with this strat bc I play norms with some friends and most randoms wont do this, but when I play with my Diamond 5 and Plat friends, they prefer this bc it's more reliable for me and the silver friends I have. Going "go beat that higher elo person in lane so they don't snowball" works way worse then "Go be a douchebag Def af Kass or something and just never fight him." Sure poke can take this out, but engage will have loads of issues catching him regardless of the skill of the guy Gnar ulting if he can never get close. My diamond 5 likes to Yi jg so it's never too bad even if I'm countered, bc all I have to do is safely poke back and keep flash ready so they don't get kills. I know I'll lose a fight, so I DONT FIGHT unless I have an advantage. That's the whole point of the comp. DONT FIGHT without a serious advantage.

BestTristMyHaus1 votes

{quoted}

In addition, Trund can easily destroy Garen or Mundo if he can stay even or get ahead in lane, but he wont be fighting much. ... you'll be able to take them if you are either splitpusher and are a)equal in gold with them or b) catch them trying to take a turret.

So... you come into a thread suggesting an idea for comeback mechnics, and you reply to a guy who says the current system punishes teams who fall behind too harshly by giving him a team comp that is "fine if you stay even"?!? By DEFINITION you're not staying even if the other team is snowballing on you.

Rundus11 votes

I went into a thread suggesting ideas for a comeback mechanic and recommended a team comp with so much peel that staying even or getting ahead will be easy if you are semi-competent unless the enemy is a god. The guy was saying that farming a solo lane was bad bc they would just collapse on him or his team in a 1v5 or 4v5 scenario, so I gave him a team comp that had peel, splitpush, and a strong waveclear on many people. That team can farm every lane and splitpush safely if they just take the time ward. All this was explained earlier in the thread. Additionally, a Trundle or Trynd (I dont recall who i was talking about) should be able to stomp a Garen or Mundo in lane if they play their cards right. If they don't wanna risk losing, they can just play the farming game too and be fine. I didn't ever say this works if you're already losing (although the 1,3,1 still does, you just can't 1v1 ahead people). Please read the context of the quotes you take.

Gigahappytown4 votes

Last time we had comeback mechanics jax and nasus were broken and had no counterplay getting shit on in lane meant nothing

you can't change snowballing without changing game pace.

more snowballier games are better as its more dependent on player skill rather than did you pick a champion that scales into late

ChaddyFantome3 votes

The only one i really have no issues with is the dragon one, not to say that I hate the others but I think the Dragon one is legit. Bump the requirement up to 3 or more for the enemy team for it to kick in and its pretty much perfect.

oljQIkKHlE2 votes

Suprised this hasn't gotten attention, I hate how snowbally games are now :/

Hoping Riot changes it before the Ranked season starts

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

I'd rather this than 45+minute long games where I could lose at any moment since everyone hits 6 items and even if you were ahead all game, death timers reached over a minute so one catch ended it. There is a reason champions like Viktor and Ziggs are constantly nerfed and are unhealthy for this game when they are strong: they OWN their own drag games to late game by simply existing on the map.

Reynard the ƒox1 votes

ur dum

Halrowis2 votes

cant fkin stand minion pushing man, the game has never been so oppressive for losing teams imo

11shevchenko2 votes

I like how the ideas here mix an emphasis on team objectives with Dragon and Baron, and also on individual skill with the last one.

BluePolarizer2 votes

I dislike any comeback mechanics. I just don't think there should be built-in snowball mechanics. I think that the minion changes should be reversed while towers made tankier. I also think extra jungle camps should be added while the map is slightly enlarged. This would allow winning teams to win even harder if they're good, but it would allow losing teams to more effectively turtle and stage a comeback through careful farming, warding and roaming.

I like the sparse map of DOTA which gives both snowball opportunities and comeback opportunities with no gimmicks - just within the game. Changing the environment of the game itself based on small game conditions is a huge step that should simply not be undertaken.

Feathermane2 votes

I want playing well all game to matter. Not playing well starting at minute 27. There are plenty of games already where you lose due to having a poke composition or mishandle 1 late game teamfight after leading all game. Artificial catch-up mechanics don't feel good at all.

Shield Villain2 votes

I don't like the double dragon buff one, because it invalidates a good jungler/team getting an early dragon, and having great river control. Maybe have it so that if you're behind 2 dragons, aka Enemy has 3 and you manage a 1st dragon, it gives you a small version of the 8 stack dragon buff for like 2 minutes, rewarding you for managing to steal that dragon.

As for the baron one, that in itself is pretty rewarding. But if you're behind a good chunk of gold, then I'm all for it being applied to dead allies. That way a kamikaze into Baron as a last ditch effort to win has its risks, but rewards as well. Even diving a strong enemy team, in hopes 1 of you will steal it. It would give a lot of reward for the risk.

MasterPrankster2 votes

I disagree with comeback mechanics, that's punishing people who are doing good even more than the system already does. (bounties)

However the snowballing problem should be addressed.

flying banelings2 votes

Personally I think it would be better if the current minnion pushing was reversed. So loseing teams get more pushing potential. At least loseing teams won't get an incredible buff for being behind.

Rysophage2 votes

they did they're called wards.

Laisenberg2 votes

what about no snowball mechanics and no comeback mechanics

Predacon1 votes

Can't say I agree at all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmtmTzIbsPg

The game has way too many mechanics already given to allow comebacks as seen in the video.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Can't say I agree at all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmtmTzIbsPg

The game has way too many mechanics already given to allow comebacks as seen in the video.

I was gonna make a thread about this video. It's a good analysis, although I don't agree on all his points being outright negative (primarily the auto-mobis thing).

Occams Raiser1 votes

he has a bias towards solo play. I don't agree with comeback stuff but i don't believe everyone plays for solo accolades.

Papa Slothy1 votes

Lowered turret health already fixed this problem

Llanite1 votes

They win because they played better. I failed to see how adding silly bonus to the losing side would make it a fairer game.

So you lose half of your chess board due to a trap, you deserve have them all back because you somehow kill one of his pieces?

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