Protect the Carry or Kill the Carry, nothing else matters "Strategic Diversity" is a lie.

Holgranth··30 votes·4,351 views

IF YOU WANT STRATEGIC DIVERSITY YOU MUST ALLOW FOR OFFENSIVE STRATEGIES BEYOND NUKE THE ENEMY CARRY(S) OR DIE AND DEFENSIVE STRATEGIES BEYOND PROTECT THE CARRY(S) OR LOSE.

So many opportunities for diversity are quashed because only high damage carry type champions matter in teamfights. Take Shyvana her strategic niche should be a disruptor, forcing enemies out of position, breaking up their careful plans, forcing valuable cooldowns, dealing sustained AoE damage and buying your team time and positioning advantage.

Too bad for her the only thing that matters for dive champions is killing the enemy carry(s). Her strategic niche is criminally undervalued because of how incredibly warping carries are. If you cannot kill the enemy carry(s) very quickly you will die and leave your team in a bad 4v5.

Trundle is even worse off, he excels at killing tanked up champions and dueling, completely worthless as long as carries utterly dominate the metagame. Meanwhile marksmen like Ashe MissFortune and Varus are left completely underrepresented in all queues at all levels. Why pick a champion that requires team co-ordination and risk when you can have a super safe carry that can still shred any target like Lucian Corki Caitlyn ?

To truly have strategic diversity we need to remove the entire idea of late game carries, rework all carry itemization, then give all champions powerful and diverse roles. Even with all the changes preseason the usefulness of all non-carry champions in team fights comes down to, “can I protect my carry(s)?” “Can I kill the enemy carry(s)?” “Can I set up a guaranteed kill for my team on the enemy carry(s)?” If one of those isn’t true 100% of the time you will not be picked.

There can be no diversity when the only thing that matters in the metagame is blowing shit up.

63 Comments

Narasimha23 votes

You're just spouting buzz words. You don't have a solution. Fact is, thats how it works. Play ANY game. Not even League, not even a MOBA. You always want to protect your hard hitters, and you want to keep theirs out of the fight. Thats just how it is. Not every champion has to be the star. Some can take pride in being a strong supporter. And theres nothing wrong with that.

Why pick a champion that requires team co-ordination and risk when you can have a super safe carry that can still shred any target like Lucian Corki Caitlyn

Because MissFortune shreds whole teams. Because Tristana can't be touched. Because Vayne can't be dueled. Because Twitch can't be found. Because Ezreal has already poked your whole team down. Because Draven.

No champion is great at everything. Caitlyn doesn't match up late game.Lucian is good at everything but is no where near the best in any category (Jack-of-all, if you will). Corki has an incredible mid game, but his early game isn't the best and he's no hypercarry.

Raptamei13 votes

How is it "limiting" that you want to protect the guys with the highest damage and the lowest toughness?

That's how it works in EVERY game.

Even Starcraft, and I don't hear anyone complain that high templars are more important to preserve than zealots.

FyshinaTux12 votes

Just run "multiple threat source" comps and you're good, the enemy can kill your carry all they want, you have another one...

Holgranth7 votes

You are making my point for me, unless you are a carry, can kill a carry or can protect the hell out of a carry YOU ARE USELESS. There is no diversity in that.

FyshinaTux15 votes

Really? That's a very NARROW view on this game. I've seen many a times when a Mundo was neither killing the enemy carry, nor protecting his carry, but just running around like a Mundo and regen'ing while tanking the entire enemy team. How is that useless?

Holgranth6 votes

Even Mundo has a major problem surviving carry damage unless fed or facing a very underfed enemy carry, he is an exception though, he has a job beyond kill the carry, he can still do that job sometimes. Great! Now name 10 other non carry champions that have a diverse niche that ISN'T kill or protect the carries.

FyshinaTux15 votes

Singed Maokai Galio Amumu Anivia TankGangplank Nunu Kennen Renekton Swain

Check... Mate.

Holgranth6 votes

Singed Maokai Galio Amumu Anivia TankGangplank Nunu Kennen Renekton Swain

Check... Mate.

Singed Another exception, still gets rekd unless fed, Maokai All about locking down or peeling for carries, Galio Barely viable anticarry, has no other role than counter magic carries, Amumu Peeling or locking down carries, Anivia is an AP carry, Gangplank tank gangplank might be a semi viable exception, Nunu straddles a weird spot having a bit of ap carry, a bit of support and a whole lot of Satan, Kennen Is an ap carry, Renekton Kill the carry or get F@#$ed. Swain is an ap carry....... he is so built around items..... no idea what he is even doing on this list.

So 3/10 and that is generous. Remember I am looking for champions who's PRIMARY ROLE is not BEING A CARRY, PROTECTING A CARRY OR KILLING A CARRY.

ShadowParker9 votes

Your tunnel vision in Real.

Hawkefire4 votes

Maokai protects his carry, and is one of the best carry protectors in the game (hell, he literally turns his carry into a tank).

Galio provides an initiation for the carry so that the carry can kill the enemy team, he sets up his carry to kill the enemy team. Aside from that, he is considered largely worthless because numerous champions can do what he does, but do it both better and safer.

Amumu, peels and locks down the enemy carry. He also disrupts the enemy team.

Gangplank is in a terrible spot right now. But generally, his primary goal is to 1 shot the enemy carry.

Nunu isn't doing so hot right now, but during teamfights his entire goal is to peel for the ADC.

Renekton is gimmicky, he is great during the early-midgame where he can actually do things but come lategame all he can do is peel for his adc.

Swain basically IS a carry, but of a different flavor. His purpose is to be tanky enough to withstand assault and yet still be able to dish out withering amounts of damage.

Singed and Anivia are the only ones listed there that have a diverse niche that doesn't involve protecting/killing the enemy ADC.

FalconPawwwwnch5 votes

Singed Maokai Galio Amumu Anivia TankGangplank Nunu Kennen Renekton Swain

Check... Mate.

Except none of these champions can outcarry an ad carry or come even close to being as useful

FyshinaTux3 votes

The one thing I would like to say to all the people that replied to this post:

"EVERYONE IS/CAN CARRY."

The whole purpose of the game is to destroy the enemy nexus, to do that, you fight the enemy team. A "fed anyone" can become a carry very quickly, so assuming that all things are equal (something people on the boards do FAR too infrequently), there IS nothing but "kill the carry/protect the carry" gameplay with SOME exceptions such as split-pushing. The main difference between playstyles is HOW you get to the end outside of the fighting. The post listing Singed Mao etc, was a reply to someone telling me to list people that fill Niche roles, all of those champions fill a "niche" role that is neither carry protector or carry killer. Just because they CAN fill those roles, doesn't mean that they always do. Maokai, for example, can be a GREAT initiator, not JUST a peeler.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

that´s just what he´s been talking about....defense is just utterly useless in this game right now. Everything that does not offer massive utility or dmg does not have a place in this game.

Poptart Evelynn9 votes

That's weird because I just saw TSM get rekt by UOL yesterday and they didn't focus anything on their adc. They jungled TF and locked down Bjerg. They focused most of their power on mid lane and some to top while barely touching bot.

Do you even watch the pro scene?

Holgranth6 votes

I am not talking about just ranged AD carries, while they are the worst offenders, I am talking about ALL champions with extreme scaling multiplicative damage. (The fact that TF is even a viable jungler while every non-sustained melee champion gets the ever loving crap kicked out of them is an indicator in itself of just how biased the game design is right now, inadvertantly or not). Champions like Tryndamere and Jax should not exist in their current state either.

PS. Watched the OGN qualifiers? Lucian and Corki all day, eclipsing all other champions in the game.

League of Potato2 votes

I agree with what you're trying to get at here, but you have to remember that LCS games and normals/ranked are very different. LCS or the "pro scene" are pre made teams that practice together all day, everyday. They do things in games that you wouldn't be able to do unless you go in as 5 premade. Also, the meta for LCS and the meta for normals are usually very different. You could look at worlds for that. I don't follow pro games that much but I do enjoy watching them occasionally, but I can recognize that, for the most part, the way that they play is based on an "LCS/Pro meta" while the way people play in normals/ranked have an entirely different meta. Whether that goes into the types of champions that are being played, or the way their roles are being used, and optimized.

Now focused on the OP...

While some games do focus around how well bot lane does, most of my games are won from a team effort. The ADC would be absolutely nothing without their support, and sometimes even without well timed ganks by their jungler. Also, I don't know about you, but usually someone in mid gets fed as all hell (you normally..or atleast I normally don't see games where they are fairly even all game). You either shut down your lane opponent or they shut you down. (This may just be because I am unranked, and don't have enough time to play ranked consistently) However, this game does not only count on the ADC's, and how well they do. I'd be lying to you if I said I've never been in a game where an ADC just dominated and carried the whole team (for some reason Jinx has huge fed carry potential, I've even won with her in a 4v5 while playing jinx...granted the other team seemed to be going more for kills than anything else objective wise...at least when she first came out, I haven't played her very recently), but that doesn't mean those games are lost and hopeless. I'm sure you've all been in at least one game where the other teams ADC got fed, and your team came together focused the ADC until you completely shut them down. They usually get too cocky, throw themselves in the entire team and get shut down. I can tell you from my personal experience that I win more games through good, quality, old fashioned teamwork, than I do getting carried by the ADC.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it doesn't happen as much as you'd like to make us think.

Rawrful9 votes

So OP, what other roles would you like to see? What is this diversity you feel is missing? You haven't actually given any suggestions.

See, I think you are just missing a lot of of the strategy in the game, and you don't really understand the part you think you do. You make it sound like LoL can only be played like Season 1, where everyone just passively laned then bashed into each other in 5v5s in the mid lane at 20 minutes and whoever wins from that wins the game.

First off, lets look at the champions you mentioned. You suggest that late game carries are so important and so powerful that they force every other role into a niche based around them. Then you mention Lucian, Corki and Caitlyn. None of which are 'late game carries'. All of which are lane bullies that scale well into mid game and fall off late game. Your idea that 'late game' is where the commonly played carries are strongest is just ignorant. The reason Lucian and Corki are in nearly every pro match is due to their incredibly LANE presence and the snowball power they can get from a slight lead. If your hypothesis that late game carries are so powerful as to pigeonhole all other champions were true, we would be seeing Tristana and Vayne every game. Corki in particular is known for falling off super hard in the late game. You are just plain wrong about the late game aspect, which really hurts your whole idea.

What does the early-mid game Marksman trend mean? It means that the problem isn't the 'carry' potential. The problem is the snowball potential. Lucian and Corki both have a wicked early game, and both spike hard with one item. This means you can force fights over important objectives (Dragons, towers, even jungle buffs) starting very early. The early power spike means they can get a gold, XP and Dragon lead over their opponents. At the moment, this early game lead is so strong that it is nearly impossible to get back from (What was it, 79% win rate to the team that got first Dragon?). That is why the early game Marksmen are so important to the meta right now.

Riot's balancing history on this, where they have made mistakes, how they are trying to fix it. So, 6 months ago I would have been tempted to agree with you. The time period I will call the "Age of Tristana" where people realized that at 4+ items, Tristana is so powerful that she can single handedly win games. This was the era when your 'everyone must exist to protect the carry, or kill the carry' style was SUPER popular. Whichever team got Tristana would slap Ziggs mid, because he could safely clear waves in two lanes for an infinite amount of time. Coat top and jungle in CC, slap in a peel support and blam. Delay the game to 40 minutes with safe wave clear, Tristana wins it for your team. But you had to delay it that long, or get Tristana snowballing.

There were two theoretical ways to deal with this style.
1: The first was the most boring thing ever: Pick your own late game carry and try to play the same game. This is when you would see Xerath/Ziggs (Long range wave clear) in mid every game, Kog/Trist ADs that would lane swap to never be in a 2v2, Morgana and Braum supports, Lulu solos and Elise jungles. Pile as much support the carry and wave clear as possible onto your team. This meant that even if one team got ahead, the enemy could just safely wave clear and delay until everyone was max items. Then one Baron fight into GG. These games sucked to watch and sucked to play. 2: Pick a mean early-mid snowball comp (Like is popular now). Corki, Lucian, Kassadin, Syndra, champions that could just wreck the enemy team so hard early that you never gave them a chance to scale into late game. You needed REALLY strong siege or dive to be able to make this work, because the enemy team wave clear was so strong. This is when 1-3-1 split push showed up too, because it is really hard to constantly wave clear 3 lanes at the same time.

With the nerfs to Tristana, Ziggs and Lulu the hyper-carry style had fallen out of favor by the end of Worlds. The 'late game carry' style can still work, but it isn't dominant at all.

Now that that is out of the way, what other strategies exist? Popular non-Marksman centric strategies have included: 1: The Poke comp. All long range poke and disengage. Blue Ezreal was invented for this style. Mongol style, you poke at them and poke at them and never let them catch you until they are so weak that you can just kill them or take their objectives. 2: The Teamfight comp. AoE CC and AoE damage. Amumu is the quintessential champion. Take a bunch of threats and ram them into your opponents face. 3: The Early Game comp. Morde and Darius style: Pick lane bullies, win every lane, never let up the pressure. Push the lane advantage into a 20 minute nexus. This was a popular solo queue style in the Asian metas where they had average game times less than 25 minutes. 4: 1-4 split push. Zed and Vayne are classics. Good wave clear and mobility on your team. Your split pusher can 1v1 anyone on their team, so they are forced to try to 5v4 you (Wave clear, disengage) or send two to stop your split push (4v3 them and win). C9 used this at Worlds. 5: 1-3-1 split push. Take two split pushers. If the enemy 5v3s, you will lose towers even with great wave clear, but you will hopefully get two for every one you lose. If they break into a 1-4, you hopefully go even on towers. It is really frustrating to deal with, because with good wards you will never catch the enemy split pushers. A lot of Korean teams use this strategy as a late game transition when they have two strong split pushers in their comp.
6: Proxie farm. Singed style. Run a strong counter jungler or ganker, have a laner start behind the enemy towers. Cut creeps so the opposing top laner has to tank the minions or lose his tower. This changed the entire game dynamic, because the jungler is forced to deal with the proxie farmer, which gives your jungler freedom to counter jungle or gank the other lanes with complete impunity. Samsung White used this this strategy against TSM in worlds to counter the Corki/Nami bully lane by forcing TSMs jungler away.

TL:DR Protect the carry compositions have been around forever. They were really strong a few months ago, but early/mid game bully teams are the vogue right now. Your examples of Corki, Lucian and Caitlyn are examples of early game bullys, not late game carries. You are confused.

Ale non è male4 votes

Kill the carry and protect the carry are consequences of the various strategies, not the thing from which they stem The splitpushing strategy is all about taking uncontested objectives while the enemies are foucesd somewhere else, but you leave your team with 1 people left so they must actually survive and have enough damage to destroy enemy waves and avoid being rekt by enemy. In a similar kind of strategy, you got to protect the carry as the consequence of the splitpushing, not as core concept behind the splitpishing

FantasySniper4 votes

Split-pushing? Is that not a viable strategy that doesn't involve killing or protection potential in teamfights?

By the way, this is unavoidable. In chess, it's all devoted to protecting your king and killing theirs (Same for queen). In war, it's all devoted to preserving your resources and destroying theirs (people are a resource). The objective of battle is to have the priority target removed by any means necessary, and this is almost always accomplished by weakening and destroying them and the worst threats.

Llanite4 votes

Why stop there? The ONLY thing EVER matters is to burn the nexus. You burn it or yours gets burned.

/Thread.

PrinceArchie4 votes

Truth be told guys I think there is a generalizing of the point OP is trying to make. The issue is not that Carries exist, it's that carries are more valuable in the game period. Many of you are saying things that sort have been said earlier:

-Anyone can be a carry as long as you have the damage -The game is centered around playing the carry -Carries wont win the game single handed

Yea these points have been made so theres really no actual rebuttal being made to begin with. Here's the facts, a carry has the most influence on the game because damage is the most influential stat in the game. The reason this is an issue is because the presence of a tank has been heavily lowered by way of lack luster itemization. The ONLY reason carries are as potent as they are right now is because their itemization in the game is able to handle almost any situation. CC, tankiness, sustain anything you might think would "halt" a high damage target they can easily itemize against it. They get the best of both worlds with items that provide tankiness and utility as well, even further making actual tanks seem lack luster.

Someone said it earlier in this thread, if you are playing a champ that needs to build defense (basically a traditional tank) then you arent going to have an impact in game and thats 100% true. That shouldnt be so, its unfair and it doesnt promote strategy but limits it. Theres nothing wrong with the existence of carries, but there needs to be an answer to them rather than just simply more damaging threats. I think the champs are there to do that, the itemization however doesnt allow it.

Edit: The only thing I like about what im noticing in season 5 as it regards champion diversity is that... there is no meta. Almost any champ can work given the right synergy. So at least you can be a carry on your favorite unorthodox champ in the right comp.

Sightless661 votes

Here's the facts, a carry has the most influence on the game because damage is the most influential stat in the game.

That's not a fact, that's an assertation, and I don't agree with it. There is a reason that low-CC teams rarely win, and it's not because damage is the most important thing in the world.

Someone said it earlier in this thread, if you are playing a champ that needs to build defense (basically a traditional tank) then you arent going to have an impact in game and thats 100% true.

Again, not a fact, just something you're asserting. Tanks can easily take over and dominate games.

Alternate explanation: I think that people underestimate the power that tanks bring. I'm going to call this a fact.

PrinceArchie2 votes

My bad my assertion is just that an assertion and im not 100% correct however im am very confident in my logic because it's the trend in many games I've played and have seen. I've had great games with tanks as well and I've seen some pretty shotty games with teams that lack Cc. But I must be completely honest when I say that I've played complete Assassin comps with very limited CC to see that the snowballing damage potential of champs like akali, Zed, fizz, katarina and Diana can be just simply too overwhelming for many comps.

It's not impossible to defeat but the more carry you have the greater your team has a chance to outscale if you can outlast. Think about it, if you have a tanky team with limited damage against a team with high damage threats in every role it's only a matter of time before you get outscaled and it isnt overly easy to shut down those high damage threats because they have pretty significant itemization options, as well as pretty versatile kits.

Thats the major point im making and what it seems is going over many heads. It isnt all about the damage itself, it's about the responses to that damage. The options to that damage as opposed to the options those high damage targets have against everything else is just not as great. Thats why carries are so dominant, because they are built better for success and "Carrying" the game than any other role.

Hayaishi3 votes

It's ok, gotta mess up with the jungle for another whole preseason.

redniwediS3 votes

It honestly sounds like you play solo far too often. Try playing 5s or something.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

the problem get´s actually worse the better those 5man are. Worlds had practically just shown how the teams playing best with their respective carries pulled through in the end.

redniwediS1 votes

Riot is putting the tools in place for a team to successfully play something other than the "protect the carries" meta. Solo queue won't catch on for a very long time, but in 5s you can actively play in another way.

Worlds is one thing, playing in a fun non-meta way with friends is another.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

I think the OP actually uses the wrong term...he´s mostly refering to comp-diversity, not as much as strategic diversities - though in the end it really all comes down to dealing with the carries on the other side. There will never be a successfull strategy that doesn´t relay heavily on carries in one way or another (currently it´s mostly pick-comp vs peel/poke-comp). This Gmae just does not have a place for it´s tanks currently.

Byrnes3 votes

Out of curiosity, because I see it so often, why is reinforced meta/strategies so negative? Is it because League is unique in that it doesn't have to live by a certain set of rules, so no one wants it to? I mean, in essentially all other video games you have the set of rules you play and live by and so you do so in that universe. Why is League unique?

Stephenizgod1 votes

Its not about reinforced meta/strategies being negative, its about the same meta and strategies being better then all the others to the point that is all you see in every game.

Byrnes1 votes

That makes more sense to me. Thank you!

Arveanor3 votes

League might not be the game for you...

SmokingPuffin2 votes

I don't think there is a way to make teamfights not about killing or protecting carries without changing League so much that it is a different game. Squishy high damage champions are inherently higher priority targets. It's true in every moba and almost every RPG.

In the context of teamfights, I think there is meaningful strategic diversity in how teams approach fights:

  • AoE comp
  • Poke comp
  • Pick comp
  • Splitpush comp
  • Dive comp
  • Protect the carry comp
PentaJump2 votes

I got to D1, 99 LP back when that was one step away from challenger, with AP Trist only. My whole strategy in team fights was "Blow up their carry." Super linear thinking, and it worked. No one on the team is as important as the ADC.

I think the underlying issue this season is that defensive items are too weak.

Look at the list of the highest win rates in plat+ for patch 4.20 http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

Ww and Panth come in at rank 1 and 2 for win rates, and they are the tankiest champions in the top 15 on this list. However, their win rate will go down next patch, as they are only strong due to specific benefits they gained from the jungle. In other words, they are exceptions to the rule that tanky champs are weak, and RIOT will be addressing them next patch. At rank 16 we find our first true tanky champ- Sion. Next is at 22, with Blitz.

But really, shouldn't we have more tanks than just those in the high win rates? The point is, that if you pick someone who deals damage or provides utility, you are much better off than if you pick someone who needs to build tanky.

WooBeeWoo2 votes

I have been saying this... the game is 100% entirely about the ranged adc. Melees don't matter and lots of time mids only matter if they are trying to assassinate your adc. I this meta tanks are bullshit and so are immobile mages because the adc is god

Juggernaut Jesus2 votes

Might as well go play Heros of the Storm.

meatjunjun2 votes

The one thing I'll agree with is ADC's are just too powerful. My only gripe with that is I don't think a character who's main damage output is RIGHT CLICK should be that strong...

At least mid laners require more skill than "Is my team meat shielding for me?... ok [right click] [right click] [right click], kite kite kite"

Stephenizgod1 votes

I 100% agree with you man, as a Ex-Garen main (had to stop since people would not stop complaining about it) there is really nothing for him to do. He has no CC other then a Silence which doesn't help in defense. He doesn't have enough damage to instaburst carries not to mention lack of a gap closer. His ult is stupid, its impossible to gauge whether it will kill someone in the middle of batte and with its horrendous base damage you almost never get the kill unless you have ignite or the next AA would have killed them anyways...

Late game Garen has no role in Teamfights, you either build damage and die (still not do any real damage) or build tank and just be last man standing, after teamfights, trying to run from the enemy team. Anyone with a brain will ignore Garen and/or just CC him, plus with all the freakin armor pen these days the carry will just eat through him eventually. Apparently having 400 armor is the same as having 50 against ADC's now (except on Rammus lol).

Garen's role should be to plunge into the teamfight spinning like crazy and either occupy the tanks or take out the squishies, but he cant really do that.

Raptamei2 votes

Garen's role should be to plunge into the teamfight spinning like crazy and either occupy the tanks or take out the squishies, but he cant really do that.

That has nothing to do with "the meta" and everything to do with Garen being shit though.

redniwediS1 votes

As an active Garen main I have to disagree with both of you. Garen is actually in a fantastic place right now, you just can't play him like it's season 2 anymore. I've explained why this is far too many times already, so I'll just say don't complain about him until you figure him out in season 5.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Garen is not in a fantastic place right now actually, but he is not in a bad place either. He does very well when his team does well, but if his team is not doing so well then he is almost worthless in teamfights. He can't peel since he has no hard CC, he has no gap closer so he cant jump on a carry quickly, and he is too easily kited.

Now does that mean he is weak? No, not at all. In lane Garen is a nightmare at low elos, unless you are ranged or directly counter him, and if his team is not feeding then in teamfights he can easily turn the tides with a well timed R. Plus he can run into 5 people throw on his W and spin-to-win, if they focus him your team gets free damage while Garen is tanking, if they ignore him he will go and spin-to-win on the carries.
If your team can't follow you or back you up then his only option is to catch someone out, otherwise you are just a big useless walking mass of tank. With all the straight up armor pen in the game and ADC's being ridiculous with crit, armor is pretty much useless no matter how much you have if they are fed.

So at lower elo, yeah Garen is good, but at higher elo's he isnt so good. Too easy to counter, too easy to kite, and as long as your ADC has armor pen (LW) he isn't that hard to kill. If he had a more reliable role in teamfights then i think he would be a better pick. Also his ultimate is super weak (for an ult), Volibears W out damages it by a lot plus has a lower cooldown and gives him bonus attack speed; although it doesn't look as cool.

redniwediS1 votes

When I say fantastic I mean he's strong enough to turn around a game but not strong enough for Riot to think about nerfs. I won't argue details as that's a matter for a different topic.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Well no one is really talking about nerfing (i was talking about buffing his ult actually), but ok i do agree he is strong. Turn a game around? I wouldn't say that, but he can turn an equal or advantageous fight into a complete stomp if the enemy doesn't handle him correctly.

Stephenizgod2 votes

Garen is incredibly strong actually... He just has no "teamfight ability".

WooBeeWoo1 votes

No the meta is why Garen isn't any good. Honestly Garen is a monster and I've smurfed and carried the shit out of games with him. As soon as an adc starts kiting him using their superior ranged cc and mobitlity its over because you can't do anything just watch them eat you alive. It actually isn't Garen it is the meta and the shit balance by riot

SchneidRpro1 votes

Or riot could just fix itemization for tanks. If sustained carries made weak/removed then tanks would be OP.

Riot designed a trinity to combat this --->

Burst counters Sustained and tank counters burst and sustain counters tanks. If we removed sustain damage then it would just be tanks counter burst. The game would turn into World of Tanks and wet noodle fights. There would be no reason to play bursty champs cause who cares if a tank will just eat your burst, and kill you when your combos down. Team would have so little damage against structures and objs that games would take forever to end. Without carries the game would be incredibly boring to watch or play.

Tell me how can you even destroy a tower quickly without a carry, just seiging a tower would take 10 minutes.

I agree with you that tanks are weak right now, but right just needs to give them a little better itemization to lock down a carry. Maybe an item that gives them a snare like skillshot, so if your an immobile champ you can outplay them, land that snare and kill them.

7ha7guy7771 votes

play a team with 5 adcs or 5 apcs or 5 tanks or 5 supports. they won't know who to focus. you can't "protect the carry" if there is no actual carry

DarkslayerG1 votes

So what you want is a game with all bruisers? Because that's basically what you are asking for, people that can take hits and deal out reasonable damage.

Also, what you envisioned as how to play Shyvana IS how she is supposed to be played. You dive into their team, focus on their squishies, and for them to focus on you so your team can do damage. Or were you expecting Shyvana to somehow be able to tank all of them AND kill them all? Sounds like a single player RPG game might be more suitable for you.

Minrog1 votes

I don't think Lucian, Corki or Ezreal are very good examples of carries. They have a lot of versatility and mobility for the Marksman class, but their damages actually fall off relative to most of the other ones. You see them in high level play as part of specific comps and because they excel for the first 20 minutes of a game. Most games are decided by then, but if it is even at that point it's Vayne, Tristana, Jinx and Kog'Maw that own.

Still, how else would you design the game? I've carried a game as a fed Shen before but it still takes teammates to do it and I'm still essentially a tank. Is the complaint here that tanks can't 1v5 when fed? Supports don't get enough gold to build Deathfire/Rabadon's? I dunno what you are trying to say.

Borfin1 votes

Just because you can boil the core concept to a single sentence doesn't mean there aren't more complexities to it.

If the game's strategies are so easy to figure out, why aren't you diamond yet pardner? Why isn't every assassin main diamond? Deleting carries is their fkin job.

More from Gameplay

More by Holgranth