The new jungle is incredibly complicated and nerfs many already weak jungles

I Main Swain·Nov 22, 2014·17 votes·3,420 views

my main point is sejuani. you can basically last long enough to hit level 3 before having to back because of the terrible health sustain, and her mana problems don't help much either. that combined with her clear time forcing her to take more damage and therefore forcing her to back more often, its incredibly difficult to balance it. sejuani aside, the new jungle is way too complicated considering that it wasn't implemented gradually. I am absolutely and hopelessly lost.

42 Comments

Vore MonsterNov 22, 20144 votes

0/17/13 can put sejuani on a full jungle clear without a leash with a little less than 1/2 her HP, i don't see a problem with her. And as for taking out camps themselves; you need to remove the smaller monsters and CC the big one to survive. So far my friends and I haven't had a problem with any jungler besides Evelynn.

WereScribNov 22, 20142 votes

I've had no real issues with Eve ~~jungling~~. She's fine, she gets through it healthy enough (you need trailblazer and you need to make sure to smite red every time for the health restore early on).

My issue is she lacks real impact in the game. She doesn't work too well off AP and Elder Lizard was so core she's lacking allot of power gamewise--and built as an assassin she's lackluster at best.

Basically, she needs some of the power she was denied last season due to vision changes, so she has no early game power spike item to make up for her inability to compete 1v1 with anyone.

SeoSeBomNov 22, 20144 votes

i have to say that riot definitely fucked up on this one. It is easy to gank when you are lvl 3 as a jungler, but you know what? riot trolls you with the 60 sec cool down smite with less mob exp. what pisses me off even more is that mobs in jungle hit double times harder than before but you have only 2 health pots with small health regen from machete. Are you fucking serious? do you know how hard it is to play leesin in jungle? Well i guess riot wants you to gank at lvl 2 without having either one of buffs. WELL FUCK YOU TOO stupid riot

I Main SwainNov 22, 20142 votes

errrr, lee sin is one of the stronger jungles with this. not super crazy strong, but still strong...

SeoSeBomNov 22, 20142 votes

no he's not ever tried jungling without leash? to get blue and red in one go? you can't do shit. Even if you get leash and get blue and red you can't gank after that, you just need to go home -.- . Riot fuckin obliterated the whole jungle system.

XanthalisNov 23, 20141 votes

You may not realize it, but they fixed it. Why should Lee, and others, be able to get double buffs, have excellent ganks which are low risk since they're at 85%+ HP and do all this while a laner is at lvl 2?

Everything you're complaining about was a problem and was specifically targeted by Riot to fix.

Buffalo of LiesNov 23, 20142 votes

i have to say that riot definitely fucked up on this one. It is easy to gank when you are lvl 3 as a jungler, but you know what? riot trolls you with the 60 sec cool down smite with less mob exp. what pisses me off even more is that mobs in jungle hit double times harder than before but you have only 2 health pots with small health regen from machete. Are you fucking serious? do you know how hard it is to play leesin in jungle? Well i guess riot wants you to gank at lvl 2 without having either one of buffs. WELL FUCK YOU TOO stupid riot

Right. I can deal with all of these individually, but not all together. They clearly want to force you to recall/pick and choose which camps you fight. The problem with that is, for junglers in the laning phase, camps are their minions. They don't have a lane, so camps are the only source of experience. If you have to constantly recall and spend the time running back out of spawn (and if there are no camps when you get back), you have no source of experience. You either have to get in a lane or sit around waiting for a camp to respawn, which will only put you further behind in levels and gold. You can't keep up in levels and gold with 3 camps every trip. You just can't.

4nth0l0gyNov 22, 20143 votes

The new jungle is more complicated. However, I, as an experienced player, like the new challenges associated with it. Newer players will definitely need help adjusting, but I like that it gives a lot of room to grow.

I agree there are some junglers that could perform in S4 jungle that can't in this one, but I think that's a matter of adjusting their individual strengths to compensate, rather than lowering the threshold of the jungle to accomodate.

I Main SwainNov 22, 20141 votes

well my point wasn't to change the jungle to accommodate those problems, it was to say that tank jungles who aren't very auto reliant get crapped on at the very start of the game.

4nth0l0gyNov 22, 20143 votes

Your thread title aims its criticism at the jungle being "incredibly complicated", which has nothing to do with tank jungles. Changing the focus of your criticism is fine though, that's what discussion's all about :)

I Main SwainNov 22, 20142 votes

no I just had 2 points on there, I guess it does look a little (in the title) like im saying that tank jungles are having a problem BECAUSE of the complexity

Sightless66Nov 22, 20142 votes

I don't think that complexity is hurting tank junglers. Take Nautilus. He's bad because camps hit harder and break his shield quicker, tanking his dps. Nothing complex there.

OleandervineNov 22, 20142 votes

That explains that. I tried jungling with Evelynn and failed miserably. She has absolutely no sustain or damage output to keep up with the current jungle scene, effectively rendering her useless. I mean, come on, where else can you play her?

I feel like the jungle is now too much of a minigame to be effective. Before, you had your routine and farmed and ganked. Here, you have to micromanage EVERYTHING and that's not even adding in the ganking, should you even get to that point in enough time.

I Main SwainNov 22, 20141 votes

imo that's just how it feels at the moment and its mostly an adjusting problem, but I do think they should put up some sort of tutorial video or something and give the weaker junglers a little early game love.

SmokingPuffinNov 22, 20142 votes

They know Sejuani is now broken and they're working on it. Be patient.

As for complexity, I agree it's significantly more complicated but I think that complexity is worth it. The old jungle was just gank stuff and clear whatever camps are nearby. Now we've got a lot more interesting stuff to do in there.

I Main SwainNov 22, 20142 votes

oh ya I definitely agree that the complexity is worth it, but I just feel like the least they could do is put up a jungle tutorial video. playing it in customs isn't very effective because its so hard to pull off without a leash for most champs.

EibhleannNov 22, 20141 votes

In a custom, you can start a few levels by laning and getting some cs. After my first jungle run, when my bot side buff timer is at about 130 I have around 900g and can afford my T2 jg item and a ward (mind you i'm not a great jungler and not far above new) so I can go for an enemy second blue steal... When I do customs I'll either start by csing until level 3 in a lane or I'll start with double golems and go to wraiths, then go to red when smite is back up. Or just wait until smite comes back up and go to red, saving one of the health pots for that fight. There's plenty of ways around not getting a leash, whether it's because you're in a custom, or a bronze match where your adc refuses to help because they see high level players not leashing or "i don't want to miss any cs" (nevermind the fact that a few aa's is a sufficient leash, and if you time it well you get to lane in time for the first cs last hit, but try telling someone at low elo that one...)

I Main SwainNov 23, 20141 votes

well ik that you can just start in lane, but I prefer to be able to start in the jungle so I can properly try things out.

Bears Dont CareNov 22, 20142 votes

Its worse when your top or bottom refuse to leash. Or when your bottom runs off...you get invaded...and you ping like mad but they ignore you.

BailedNov 22, 20141 votes

I am in the same spot. TWO health potions to start is definitively not enough for me personally. I won't attempt kha' for instance unless current jungling conditions change. I feel as though not much has changed for other roles, which makes the massive blast on junglers seem misplaced. I am actually struggling with any jungler, and that would be understandable for someone who is just coming back to a new map after a few months of playing. But it shouldn't be happening to frequent junglers who've been active throughout this roll out.

I Main SwainNov 22, 20141 votes

I feel like the new hunters machete basically re-solidified the hold that bruiser fighter junglers have (cough udyr cough) and simultaneously re-solidified the weakness of the already weak jungles like sejuani

ArveanorNov 22, 20141 votes

Won't attempt Kha? Hm. I experimented with him in customs and found a path and runes & masteries setup that lets me get double buffs without a leash, so when I get a leash, it's not a bad first clear.

FiendOfOneNov 22, 20141 votes

I've been having a blast in the new jungle, myself.

MalganaNov 22, 20141 votes

You really need to get your jungle item before you try to clear anything past your first clear with tanky champs, and save your second smite for the red buff because it heals you by a ton. Aside from that, if you can start at Gromp before blue his poison aura smite buff can really give you a huge boost to your clear time.

SeoSeBomNov 22, 20141 votes

by a ton? you mean 1/5 health? 1/5 health is a ton?

WooBeeWooNov 22, 20141 votes

I hate the new jungle to

RebonackNov 22, 20141 votes

Udyr "I will not pity the defenseless."

The new jungle is about as harsh as it was back in Season 1. That meant a pretty wide selection of champions just weren't cut out for it. Though, for the record, if you're playing a weaker Jungler try going Red ==> CRAB BATTLE! ==> Krugs ==> Whatever. That should be able to get most anyone up to level three before their first back. Then you buy your first Jungle upgrade and assess the situation.

MyGhettoFantasyNov 22, 20141 votes

Ask your team mates for help. When I am mid and my jgler comes to clear wolves and then what were formerly wraith (dunno the new name), I take 5 seconds to walk over, drop some damage over the wall and make it back to my lane without a problem. It helps A LOT.

ArveanorNov 22, 20141 votes

I don't think this is a problem with the jungle, I think it's a problem with Sejuani. Imo she's been in need of a bit of a tune up for quite a while now, and I think the jungle is just fine for many other tanky junglers (first clear on amumu is a breeze). Just give Sej a bit more damage and tankiness, and give her lower mana costs, and everything will be golden.

I Main SwainNov 22, 20141 votes

I think that all sejuani needs is lower mana costs and an actual tanking or healing (doubtfully the latter) ability.

edit: and it would be nice if her e passive actually did something like shred mr and the activation consumed it.

ArveanorNov 22, 20141 votes

I think she could use a bit of early base damage for first clear, but you're right, it wouldn't be necessary. I think her passive could handle her need for being tankier if they buffed it a bit, but she does need something, for sure.

Sightless66Nov 22, 20141 votes

Changes for her are coming to the PBE on Monday. You can look at SurrenderAt20 for a preview of the changes. It's in the latest PBE patch update.

I Main SwainNov 22, 20141 votes

ya I saw the changes, but I think they're not putting enough of her dmg as % of her hp.

XtremeyNov 22, 20141 votes

i think warrior and magus need a sustain buff. too often ad casters and mages run low and are unable to gank

AnduragaNov 22, 20141 votes

Why take Sejuani into the jungle? Just call mid and instalock the pig lady. No lie that her mid landing ability and roaming at level 6 is pretty good.

Sightless66Nov 22, 20141 votes

Fun thing: the next PBE patch is going to be shifting damage out of her instant burst and into sustained DPS. Lower Q damage, higher sustained W damage, lower E damage, lower E cooldown. Bursty pig may be going the way of the dodo.

SeoSeBomNov 22, 20141 votes

cause sejuani is a jungler duh.

Ulric GreatswordNov 22, 20141 votes

I love that the new jungle requires actual tactics. Now it's not just farming in a pattern and ganking with a side order of counter-jungling. Now you have to know when to back and upgrade your machete. You have to know which camps to smite as the game progresses. You also have to know who to involve from your team and when, and the new items and enhancements are so amazing because they help each strategy succeed.

I Main SwainNov 23, 20142 votes

don't get me wrong, I love the complexity (shoulda cleared that up) bc I love strategic differences in all the choices you can make, and I like that there's more to farming in the jungle than just taking whatever is up. however, I feel as if they should have either put the adjustment in gradually and/or put up a jungle tutorial.

Ulric GreatswordNov 25, 20141 votes

Now a jungle tutorial would be something I could see happening. They might do one once they make adjustments final for season 5.

Bears Dont CareNov 23, 20141 votes

The issue though is that Lee sin and the others aren't the only ones not getting double buffs. Those that can, like WW, typically won't gank til 6 anyway.

AnonagonNov 23, 20141 votes

I like the more difficult jungle, but I think they buffed up the non-buff camps, especially the chicken camp, too much early game. If your laner takes one of the small minions and you dont hit 2 off the buff camp, you are thoroughly screwed. I think having a more difficult early jungle is good for making you back to upgrade machete and for making strong gankers have to choose between getting their second buff or ganking. I just think its a bit too difficult, and a bit unforgiving.