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Karma needs Updated

Fanny Forecast··8 votes·965 views

So, everyone knows, Karma's current state is a joke. She's viable through versatility (like KhaZix, but he's in a worse state rn, imo) but not through power. She has sustain, poke, and burst, which allows her to at least go even in most lanes, but she can't seem to take that power much further. Yes, her R-Q has a 150% ratio (but 60% of it is situational!!) and her W is a root (to help get the second R-Q proc off) but it puts you in too much danger to be worth the extra damage a lot of the time.

On top of her damage being primarily in her Q (her W has like no damage), her W is hard to get off (and way too risky to get off), and her E is kinda meh. The buffs from her E don't last long enough to make it worth while, and the shield is outclassed significantly by Locket, an item a LOT of supports get (and saves using her Mantra).

That being said, her kit is very lackluster and while is kind of flows together, it really doesn't. R-W and R-E are far too situational and you end up using R-Q 80% of the time. Her burst is short-lived (1 ability, oh no!) and after that it's reduced back to poke. And while yes, her poke HURTS, you can always go for the TRUE mage support, Sona. She outclasses Karma in EVERY way (minus the shield, but the fact that the shield is combined with the heal makes up for it), functions and plays a lot smoother, and has an ultimate that is one of the greatest stuns (right behind amumu ult).

I LOVE her design, don't get me wrong, but it could be done a LOT better. Yes, she is in a significantly better state than pre-rework Karma (from what I've heard, I haven't played it personally) but she's still not good. She's underpowered and viable only through versatility (like Kayle but with less power and no ult). She needs changes, not a rework at all, just changes.

Her passive needs changed, it does not fit her lore at all, and if her ult gets changed, her passive won't work well with it at all. The passive stated in her ult could be her character passive, but I think it would be better as an ult passive. I think that she should get an active-passive (like Zileans passive) where she stores a % of the mana used around her (up to a cap, like Maokai's ult) and can use it to restore an allied target's mana by that flat value. The cap would have to be low, like Maokai's ult, or else it would be way too overpowered. Either that, or she could use it to drain for will (mana) of an enemy champion, but this would have to be an even lower cap. Passive has a second version, pretty self-explanatory, but lore-wise, it would be her drawing further from her inner will to gain more power.

Her Q is fine, it fits her lore, but the Mantra part could be done better. I think that instead of being a huge burst followed by a second smaller (but still big) burst, it should work more along the lines of a charge system. When she does R-Q, she can fire a second Q with the same power right after (basically if she R-Q's, the Q gets extra power and has an instant reset). This would fit better with the "The flame took the form of twin dragons, the symbol of Ionia itself." part of her lore. I've talked with FeralPony, they CANNOT update ANYTHING art-wise with Karma, but if they could, I'd totally say that'd be rad.

Her W needs changed, badly. It has NOTHING to do with lore and is honestly a really, really bad ability. It's like a point-and-click LeBlanc chains with a smaller leash range. Plus LB's chains are pretty darn easy to hit because of the trashy hitbox. I think it should be replaced with a short-lived (about 2/3 to 1/2 the duration of her R-E, stated below) AP and AD steroid for a target. If she uses R-W, it should be an AOE (like the R-E shield) and give everyone slightly more power (about 1.25 to 1.5x the power of the base steroid). This would fit with her lore and would act similar to Sona's Q (AD steroid, but instead of on one attack and AD only, it's timed and AP and AD. It would have to give less AD/AP than Sona's Q OR it could give percentages [LOWER THAN RABADONS YOU DO NOT NEED 3 RABADONS ON CASS]).

Her E fits her lore, and should be kept. It's actually pretty powerful, even without the damage. I think, however, instead of giving a speed buff, if you R-E it adds a passive similar to Janna's passive (tailwind) called "Into Battle". It would fit her lore PERFECTLY and would be the perfect entrance to a battle. It would make her the initiator/leader her lore says she is. The shield should also be less powerful but last longer if she uses R-E (or same power and just lasts longer).

Her R needs to be on a charge system, like the old one. It should have 2 charges on a moderate CD (to the point of it should get a 3rd charge by the time a team fight is near over if she uses an R-E to initiate).

VALUES

Passive: 5% of mana used around her, cap of 250 (if restoring ally mana) or cap of 150 (if draining enemy) [one or the other, passive shouldn't be able to do both]. 90, 120, or 150 second cooldown. Definitely don't scale it down as you level up, but maybe increase cap as you level up. ---- Cooldown: 90, 120, OR 150s. Not sure which would balance well, likely 120 or 150 though.

Passive (ver. 2): Add 5/10/15% Ability Power (lv1, lv7, lv13) scaling to each ability (not base ability power so would not help with turret taking nor would it raise spellblade damage)

Q: 80/125/170/215/260 (+60% Ability Power) ---- Cooldown: 7 / 6.5 / 6 / 5.5 / 5 R-Q: Add 40/60/80/100 (+20% Ability Power) to each bolt ---- Cooldown: 1s between bolts, add normal Q cooldown after both bolts fired. Timer between bolts same as current Mantra usage timer. (6 seconds)

Q (ver. 2): 80/125/170/215/260 (+50% Ability Power) ---- Cooldown: 7 / 6.5 / 6 / 5.5 / 5 R-Q (ver. 2): Add 40/60/80/100 (+20% Ability Power) to each bolt ---- Cooldown: 1s between bolts, add normal Q cooldown after both bolts fired. Timer between bolts same as current Mantra usage timer. (6 seconds)

/////Q retains same 25% slow, R-Q increases slow to 40% on each bolt. Same for both versions/////

W: 5/5/10/10/15% (+1% per 100 Ability Power) additional AD and AP ---- Duration: 3 / 4 / 4 / 5 / 5 ---- Cooldown: 15 R-W: Add 5% (+1% per 100 Ability Power) additional AD and AP

/////W with passive version 2 will function as if the additional % AP added to her AP. For example, if she has 700AP after Rabadons and all other items, her W will function as if she has 700 + (passive additional AP %), so at lv18 with 700 AP, it will count as 805AP, giving an additional 1%/////

E: 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+50% Ability Power) ---- Duration: 4 ---- Cooldown: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 R-E: Add 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 to the shield and grant "Into Battle" giving a captains enchantment-like passive/buff of 20 / 30 / 40 / 50% bonus move speed. Stacks diminishingly with Captains/Tailwind (Janna passive)/On The Hunt (Sivir Ultimate). The "Into Battle" buff would be on the person who had the ability casted on them (current R-E "explodes" and gives people in radius of target R-E'd the shield as well. This would still apply, but the initial target gets the buff). The exploded shield would work exactly the same (original target gets bonus, AOE targets get base only) ---- Duration: 5s R-E also increases shield duration by 3s (or delays shield explosion until speed buff is over)

R: Adds new portions to abilities listed above. Stores 2 charges. Still levels up 4 times, start with level 1 at level 1. Cooldown/Charge Restore: 15s

If there are any other Karma mains who agree she needs an update, please comment here on what you think of my ideas! If you have any more, please let me know, as well! I WILL be forwarding this thread to FeralPony (I've been talking to him on ask.fm for a little bit, so your ideas could definitely get in the game!!) after posting, and hopefully he will keep up to date with this post. The passive part was my only issue thinking of, so I'm sure at least one of you can think of a better passive! Feedback is encouraged as are ideas of your own!

TL;DR: None. Read the whole thing. I didn't add much, if any, fluff to the thread, it is all important. The only portion skippable is the abilities/ratios/cooldowns/etc.

27 Comments

IxtaliKing3 votes

I love your idea for R+E, even though I'm one of the Karma mains who wants the damage back on R+E I think it makes a lot of sense. I think your W/R+W changes are interesting but I strongly feel like the enemy damaging component should remain, however it would add some much needed depth to her kit to have that kind of ally targetting function added. The Q/R+Q recast idea is something I've thought would feel good on her for a while, so I like that also.

However, my biggest issue with this is that it would be focusing her as a support and as a Karma mid main that worries me. I feel like Karma should be like the premier utility battle mage who leads her team from mid. That mana passive you suggested is a great idea, but I worry what it would mean for solo lane Karma.

Evenstar2 votes

I think one thing we can all agree on Karma is the explosive shield and two mantra charges need to make a return, while W is the most hated ability on her kit. Q, depending on whether you loved the AoE heal or the major nuke is a 50/50 matter, while some think her passive is a decent ability.

It's nice to see some talks about this, and I have the exact worry as you do too.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I agree shield bomb is a must, 2 mantra charges would be great especially if it meant she got an actual passive. I've noticed her W is really hated, I definitely agree it sucks but what could be done to make it good? At least before the 5.10 patch you could use it to deal good reliable damage and heal in a duel, but now it's hardly worth the risk.

Evenstar4 votes

I find that Shield Bomb needs to be a bread and butter for Karma in damage, it's her defensive and offensive option bundled in to one. While 2 Mantra charges is important for her to keep up her burst and solve the issue of mantra's underperformance.

Frankly, there is a way to keep W as a tether, there may be more brainstorming. But the fact that her old W had interactions with wards, minions, neutrals and champions alike is a cool concept and I see it as a playmaking tool when made right. Lastly her Q should her wave clear. There are certain things I'd like to see her Riot keep closely to..

  • Her fans
  • Her shield bomb and Q from the old kit
  • Her old lore and VA
  • Her clutch moments in handling 1 vs. 2/3/4/5 scenarios

The rest is entirely up to Riot in how they wish to update/design/rework her.

Catastrop1 votes

{quoted}

  • Her fans

You have my support.

Fanny Forecast1 votes

IMO, if we were going for a mid-based Karma kit, I'd defo say a diff W. The E actually fits a mid-based Karma, imo (Orianna has a shield, does dmg while traveling, but still a shield. Lux has a pure shield. Morgana has a magic shield.) A no-dmg shield is 100% acceptable for a mid laner, and a utility mage especially.

As for the W, if you'd rather a mage Karma over support Karma (I personally play her mid/top/jg more than support, so I am definitely a mage fan, I just feel like lore-wise support fits better.) you could do something different with it. I'd LOVE to hear suggestions for a new W other than what I listed (espec cuz the more I think about it, the more I think it overshadows Janna's E too much, and I'm a Janna main over a Karma main as of late).

You could remove the mobility from her E, add a dash (like Ezreals, does dmg) to her W and add something else in place of the speed buff on her E (maybe switch the proposed W and weaken it?). Or maybe a point-and-click spell, similar to Lulu's Help Pix! where it gives vision and damages, but it also increases all damage to the target for a short duration? This would be basically marking them as the next target and would play on the leadership part of her kit. This would be good for both support and mage Karma without being bad in either.

The mana passive could be switched to allow self-cast as well, which would make solo lane Karma a thing in terms of that. I actually had that as a part of my original thought process, just didn't word it in there.

Evenstar2 votes

If we strip away mobility and give her some additional utility, I think that's a nice way to start. With ancient coin granting some good initiation with its active, I don't see the need for Karma's mini Shurelya to continue existing. In turn for less mobility, Karma has more budget space for better utility and committed damage. To be honest, I'm not sold on the Mana passive because mana is the last issue that Karma faces, her costs are somewhat above average, but are the least of her bigger problems that she's got going at the moment.

But an idea is an idea, and its worth starting off somewhere.

Fanny Forecast1 votes

What do you think about the W idea tho? Increased dmg percent towards single target, does dmg, grants true vision. Moderate cd (15ish sec)

Also, I can see that. Maybe on her shield instead of the move speed, there's the exploding damaging shield and that's it? That gives her a slow, vision/dmg amp, and a shield. She could use hard cc but idk where to put or what type of hard cc. I don't want an all-skill shot champ (like ahri) but maybe 2/3 abilities being skill shots (so W could be one)

Evenstar1 votes

Is her W meant to be a dot or damage on cast? I saw your iteration on W but am not making out what's it likely to be. It's a nice ability that could have more use in the form as a passive rather than her ability, so that there's more room to make for her utility.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I like the op's suggestion for Karma's R+E, I would just add damage instead of extra shield. If the ms buff was like a flat ms boot around the target that could allow for the buff to last a little longer to be useful. If we take away the ms boost I guess maybe a mild aoe knock back around the target would make the spell satisfying.

IxtaliKing2 votes

I wouldnt say Orianna's shield does damage, it's literally just her ball in transit and I think it only does damage for the sake of continuity. Karma's W is a tricky one though, tbh I'd be satisfied if she could cast W on 1 target and R+W on another simultaneously. I would like to see some ally targetting functionality on the spell though. Maybe W could work as a damage amp on enemies for Karma herself and as a AD/AP multiplier for her allies like you suggested. 1 part of Karma I'd like to keep is her anti assassin elements, maybe they could even move her self heal to her R+Q impact radius... idk

Evenstar1 votes

Damage amp was something ricklessbandon played around during his 5.10 ideas, unfortunately it was scraped it wasn't thematic enough on her. I doubt we will ever see damage amp happen for the simple fact that nothing in Karma mentions damage amp.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Karma barely has anything thematic about her left, tbh Ricklessabandon saw to that personally #Salt. It they want something thematic they could improve her renewal to make it more of an equaliser, maybe dealing extra damage based on her missing hp to go with the heal.

Evenstar1 votes

Ayyyy, I understand your hate for Rickless LOL. I'm not sure why he's on the balance team, his changes usually hurt a lot of AP Mids, but I think he means well with Karma's 6.2 buff. He's a bit rough on the edges tho.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lol no hate at all, but he did get it wrong with Karma and I'm disappointed in him for just letting her be like she's fine for so long.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

just revert her to pre-rework and she´d be fine sigh

Evenstar1 votes

Hahaha, we all wished she'd be back to her pre-rework, but that's not likely to happen. However, we can give Riot a range of ideas to work with, saying things such "pre-rework kit" means they should ideally work within the concepts and limitations of her old kit, and use their creativity to make it better.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

Of all champs in league old karma (as a mage-bruiser) had been the one i enjoyed most...so i´m very sceptic about making that "better" without ruining it. I think they really should just revert it...the kit had been ahead of its time back then with its complexity and also a spell that relied on your teammates knowing how it works in her old w - but within the current rooster of Champs it´d just fit in perfectly.

Evenstar4 votes

Yes, you are right. Given the current meta and the complexity that Riot puts in new champion's kit these days, Karma's kit would have perfectly had a place. In fact, I'll provide an example from Smite. Hel in Smite is the equivalent of Karma in League of Legends, when Hel was released, no one really realized her potential and thought she was too difficult to play and rather irrelevant in the meta. Smite's balance team was smart when they made the decision to rework and balanced things around items that led to the rise of Hel. Eventually, the team and player base all realized Hel was sleeper OP and always had a place in the game, she now dominates the top tier and has been a consistently strong pick even after nerfs to her utility. If Riot was smart enough to approach matters that way, perhaps Karma's old kit could have been saved.

Back to your opinions, no one really knows the real reason Karma was reworked. On paper, it seems that the balance team wanted her old kit gone because it was too team-reliant to perform well, and also that Karma had all the wrong traits of an AP Mid. Design philosophies and principle change now and then, and when she reworked, the idea was that she did not carry the safety or playstyle that many mid mages employed. Before League was a lot more complex, you had very clearly defined melee mids vs. ranged mids. Karma was not one of them. I'll give it to you, her core problem lied in her teammates, but she was otherwise fine.

Another reason, this was something I found out from digging out posts and what not, also working with @Shyndora a few months back that Riot didn't want her to be a mage-bruiser, it was problematic for them. Karma's bruiser patterns came from her overbuffed ability values, E's tankiness and the passive which allowed her to scale well in to late game to give her moments of high and low. Riot felt that granting AP for successfully ganking her and having the edge against her wasn't fair, it was their definition of "lacking counterplay" then.

Right now counterplay is about altering the course of a meta rather than the specific scenario.

At least that's what I learned. It's a bit of a short history lesson, but hopefully you'll have a better understanding of what happened, haha.

Illgore2 votes

I am happy with Karma as she is. She is very versatile and once she gets 45% CDR she is a beast. People try to build her as regular mage, which is totally wrong imho. rushing 45% CDR and endless manareg is key to victory. Bully the lane, sustain anything, "Mantrashield from start TILL end" in teamfights (45% CDR enables combo to maintain/refresh mantrashield as long as you hit with your other abilities). Kite anything. karma is badass imho. It's just that people don't get how important the 45%CDR are and that they have to rush it with their first 3 items (boots, Unholy Grale + either sup item or will of the ancients). Further you play Karma with manareg runepage (7,8 mpen; 10 mp5). You need the manareg to maintain an aggressive play till lvl 5~6 without mana isssues and constant poke.

But I liked the old Karma kit too. She's the 1st champ I unlocked and I really miss the old kit too. But as we all know, Riot won't hear us and won't give us good old Karma back .. QQ

Fanny Forecast2 votes

Karma is viable through versatility alone. Her kit is underpowered (she has 1 damaging ability, her root is hard and dangerous to land, the speed buff on her E doesnt last like anything at all, etc.). 45% CDR and poking the fudge out of people isn't enough, and her kit is just not that good rn. It only kind of flows with itself, it has nothing special about it (Q is just a skillshot that does dmg, R-Q is hard to hit the second part. W is just a shorter ranged LB chain (thats harder to proc the root on, espec cuz it lasts longer before rooting too). E is just a meh shield (R-E is weaker than locket + tali, which is a common combo anyways.) Her mantra is too lackluster and doesnt cut it, nor does it do enough. It doesnt have the decision making it needs (it's R-Q most of the time with a rare R-W or R-E) and the Mantra abilities just aren't powerful enough, at all.

Illgore1 votes

Her kit is underpowered (she has 1 damaging ability, her root is hard and dangerous to land, the speed buff on her E doesnt last like anything at all, etc.). R-Q is hard to hit the second part

learn to combo her kit: if you want to make 100% sure to proc the root WRQ(E). Go into a botgame and train that for at least 1game to get the hang out of it.

45% CDR and poking the fudge out of people isn't enough, and her kit is just not that good rn. It only kind of flows with itself, it has nothing special about it

yeah, there is nothing special about using your ult 2 times in a duels and 3+ in teamfights. Nothing special about her "lowHp"-bait combo ERWQ. and don't forget to paste as much AA as possible between there ;)

imho, once Karma reaches 45% CDR, her skillcap increases into nirvana (she gets more flexibility and options than a pro Lee Sin could ever have, just in "her" own way). In a teamfight you:

  • try to survive (^^)
  • maintain passive = keep Q&W on CD, AA as much as possible
  • think ahead which Mantra you will be using next
  • think ahead when your next mantra will be available (incl your passive in your thoughts)
  • support your teammates
  • can initiate & help retreating/kiting entire teams
  • you need to choose between DMG , Support & Utility all the time

Karma is one of the most complex champions out there imho. But most people never see her true potential, cause they build her wrong. Karma supports are rarely seen and build to reagular supportish or miss out the 45% CDR if the take a more magish route. Karma mids almost never build 45% CDR and fail to see her real power. The standard build recommend by riot is a joke and totally misleading!

edit: the most important thing I forgot...^^ @45% CDR make sure to use "Quick Cast" (on key press not release !!! means no Indicator). Everything else cost to much time and will accumulate in longer Mantra CD. She looses to much power without, even if it's only Quick Cast with Indicator, it is a huge difference.

Evenstar1 votes

Just curious, are you the one whose been asking FeralPony about what he thinks of Karma?

I just finished a Karma mid game with Lux as opponent and my end score was 1/8/15 due to Rengar running rampant and that Lux player being too safe for me to play find windows of counter. That said, I do think that Karma needs an update or another rework, but the bigger problem that Riot needs to solve is determining if what role or niche they want her to fill, because her current role in the meta is not well defined and her Mantra is the root of all her problems.

As a support, she lacks any hard cc/utilities to bring to the game, in Mid Lane, she lacks any reliable way of getting around things.

Fanny Forecast1 votes

Yes, I've been the one on FeralPony's ask.fm! Glad someone else actually uses it instead of ignores these direct windows of contact to get to rioters.

Karma is a "jack of all trades, master of none" that is weaker in every trade than the other ones that fit that role (vi, zac, hell even maokai is better than her). On top of that, her initiation is pretty poor and her counterplay is "dont get hit by a Q!" which is pretty darn easy considering the big hitbox is both good and bad (#minionQsFTW).

She SHOULD be a support, it fits in her lore perfectly to be a support (or a mage, but I think support fits better) but having her be in the awkward in-between isn't cool. Sona can do both, but Sona can do both EFFICIENTLY. Karma can't do either efficiently.

But ye, I think she should be the second mage initiator, first being Lissandra, but functions in a completely different way. I think the kit I designed (passive is iffy, the only part I only kinda like, hence the 2 options, and even then I don't like either of them that much xD) fits her lore very well and will make her a very viable initiator support.

My ONLY issue with the kit I designed is her W overshadows Janna's E a bit, but I think it could be tuned to make both still viable picks. (Janna will still be viable cuz of the second best disengage ulti (poppy y u steal spotlight) and her tornado stopping dashes).

Evenstar2 votes

I personally have different opinions when it comes to whether Karma should be a support or mage. I'd like to see a centralized discussion page with Riot comments on the boards set up first, so that all Karma threads can stop floating around and be consistent, much like the Cassiopeia threads.

Karma threads get little views and Rioters are not inclined to comment. But I'm happy to know we're on the same page, I've been keeping track of Feral's ask.fm since I saw your first question and figured it might have been someone from the boards.

Fanny Forecast1 votes

My main reason for her being more along the lines of a support than a mage and having less damaging abilities and more damage-by-proxy is her lore. It states she was a LEADER/GENERAL of the army (hence the R-E passive). It also states that she /was/ a pacifist (which she still would likely rather cling to, like Aang from ATLA, only using violence in necessary situations to protect others, which is actually in her lore as well), which is why I think that her W should be a non-damaging ability and more of a leadership ability. The Q update I said I think fits better with lore (and would work significantly better) than her currently Q.

But yeah, I'm a fan of both shoving her into mage and support, but since I'm a huge fan of lore in every game, this fits better in my opinion. I'm also only 1 person, and I'm open to suggestions. But ye, thanks for the replies! I'd love for this to be a centralized Karma update thread, I hope we can do that. FeralPony has the link in his ask.fm inbox now, so he should reply within a couple days. :3

FeralPony, if you see this, THANK YOU. On behalf of all Karma mains, thank you for considering her for an update! We all really appreciate it! <3

Evenstar2 votes

Let's see what FeralPony has to say, I'd love to have Karma as that serene and calm leader, instead of the one who has a struggle. And would like Riot to keep to her old roots, while they are allowed to flourish their creativity on their work. Perhaps when a thread is started by Riot, we may be able to continue forward with brainstorming.

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