Does anyone else think Zoe is proof Riot hates assassins?

Misses Old Talon··12 votes·2,056 views

Zoe is a champion with a single damaging move (And bonus damage for being S C H L E E P), and designed to one shot right? Well, isn't that what all the old, pre-rework assassins aimed to do? They aimed to jump on you, and either bring you close to death, or fully kill you. So, why can Zoe, a mage with hard CC that's relatively easy to land, one shot someone with a single spell, and auto attack passive alone, but it was deemed unfair that Talon, Zed, Rengar, Leblanc, ETC, could 100-0 you if they dumped a fast full combo on you by jumping you?

Yea, I know as well that a part of the reworks was due to them being such heavily feast or famine based champions, but isnt that a bit more balanced, than a 0/4 Zoe (If you can even somehow die that often during lane phase, considering your obnoxious kit) still nearly 1 shotting you, only being off by a mere 100 damage? Atleast for feast or famine assassins, if they sucked then that was it. They sucked, they were useless. With Zoe however, even if you're one of the worst players in the game, if you land even a single Paddle Star, the opposing player will either die or be forced to recall.

TL;DR Riot giving Zoe a hyper safe, 1 shot kit feels like a big Fuck you to the assassin community.

23 Comments

Khristophoros4 votes

No she's just further confirmation that CertainlyT makes champions that do unreasonable things and Riot goes ahead and releases them

Next time they let him do another assassin you'll ask if it's proof that Riot hates ADCs

Azadethe3 votes
  1. Zoe has 4 Damaging abilities not 1 (Passive, Q, W does damage when you active it, E does damage on hit AND when you activate the damage to sleep.

  2. When's the last time you played Assassins? They're more able to 1 shot than they ever were. Kha and Rengar when played correctly are the two strongest champs in the game, followed by Zed and Akali. Where do you get this idea? Kha'zix can literally 1 hit level 2, and it doesn't take a complex setup.

  3. You're exaggerating Zoe's Q. 98% of the time it's not a near kill unless you REALLY fed her, don't ward at all, and let her get easy wall picks or more importantly..... Chose a melee team vs her.

Misses Old Talon1 votes

{quoted}

  1. Zoe has 4 Damaging abilities not 1 (Passive, Q, W does damage when you active it, E does damage on hit AND when you activate the damage to sleep.

  2. When's the last time you played Assassins? They're more able to 1 shot than they ever were. Kha and Rengar when played correctly are the two strongest champs in the game, followed by Zed and Akali. Where do you get this idea? Kha'zix can literally 1 hit level 2, and it doesn't take a complex setup.

  3. You're exaggerating Zoe's Q. 98% of the time it's not a near kill unless you REALLY fed her, don't ward at all, and let her get easy wall picks or more importantly..... Chose a melee team vs her.

Um.. My name kinda gives away I'm a Talon one trick, doesnt it? So I play assassins 24/7. 2.Zoe's Paddle Star upon reaching maximum damage amp from distance traveled, has around a 300% Scaling. That means with just a dorans ring, she can pump out around 300-400 damage on the spell max range at level 1. Most champions max HP pool that early lie around 750. Squishier champions like Sona around 650.

3.Khazix needs Isolation to do anything. How is that not a complex set up? He's literally useless unless he catches a straggler, or takes the opprotunity of isolation for a split second when teams are grouped but not clumped, and Rengar is still a feast or famine champion, if he feeds early, he'll probably feed all game. Ontop of that, almost no assassins have an actual engaging tool anymore. Yea, Talon has a Q lunge and a wall hop, but you can not use spells during the wall hop besides Shadow Assault (R) and Flash,and using the lunging Q locks you out of all spells besides Flash and ignite, which means you can be cc'd during it. Ontop of that, if someone blinks away during Talons Noxian Diplomacy (Q) on Talons screen he doesnt even see it. On his screen, he lands and then teleports. These are just three assassins, and only one of them did I actually go into full detail over. Meanwhile, there are next to no downsides to point out on Zoe. She has a long CC that's easy to land, Paddle Star is AOE, so even if youre in creeps it can still clip you, and she can re-use summoner spells she grabs, meaning if she forces you to flash away, it's pointless as she'll grab your flash and catch you.

Azadethe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Loli Talon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BbfsvEyw,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-12-05T17:26:07.360+0000)

Um.. My name kinda gives away I'm a Talon one trick, doesnt it? So I play assassins 24/7. 2.Zoe's Paddle Star upon reaching maximum damage amp from distance traveled, has around a 300% Scaling. That means with just a dorans ring, she can pump out around 300-400 damage on the spell max range at level 1. Most champions max HP pool that early lie around 750. Squishier champions like Sona around 650.

3.Khazix needs Isolation to do anything. How is that not a complex set up? He's literally useless unless he catches a straggler, or takes the opprotunity of isolation for a split second when teams are grouped but not clumped, and Rengar is still a feast or famine champion, if he feeds early, he'll probably feed all game. Ontop of that, almost no assassins have an actual engaging tool anymore. Yea, Talon has a Q lunge and a wall hop, but you can not use spells during the wall hop besides Shadow Assault (R) and Flash,and using the lunging Q locks you out of all spells besides Flash and ignite, which means you can be cc'd during it. Ontop of that, if someone blinks away during Talons Noxian Diplomacy (Q) on Talons screen he doesnt even see it. On his screen, he lands and then teleports. These are just three assassins, and only one of them did I actually go into full detail over. Meanwhile, there are next to no downsides to point out on Zoe. She has a long CC that's easy to land, Paddle Star is AOE, so even if youre in creeps it can still clip you, and she can re-use summoner spells she grabs, meaning if she forces you to flash away, it's pointless as she'll grab your flash and catch you.

Okay.... 1.

Let's actually example Zoe's level 1 Q. Paddle Star TARGET RANGE: 800 COST: 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 MANA COOLDOWN: 7.5 / 7 / 6.75 / 6.5 / 6.25 Paddle Star FIRST CAST: Zoe hurls a star in the target direction that collides with the first enemy hit, dealing magic damage in a small area, increased by 0% - 150% (based on distance traveled). MINIMUM MAGIC DAMAGE:» 45 / 75 / 105 / 135 / 165 (+ 66% AP) If the star does not hit an enemy, it lingers at maximum range for 1 second. Paddle Star 2 While the star is airborne or while idle, Zoe can reactivate Paddle Star to redirect the star to a new location near her, albeit resetting the current damage modifier. If Zoe moves with the redirected star, it will keep moving until it moves more than 800 units away from her. Both the initial cast and reactivation will prime More Sparkles!.

In other words, level 1, Zoe's max damage on Q is (45+ .66 AP) *2.50 = 71.4 *2.50 = 178.5

That's a far cry from 300-400, and Zoe can't even reach max range level 1, because she doesn't have R yet. Her level 1 hits are closer to 140.

(P.S. Most champs at level 1 have 450-540 HP)

  1. That's a ridiculous portrayal of Kha Zix. Anyone whose even played the game knows that almost 90% of the game is played in Isolation. A jungler takes his second buff in Isolation. A top Lane is always Isolated. Mid is Isolated. The ONLY place early game Kha does not have Isolation to 1 hit is Bot Lane.

Yes. a Kha who afk farms jungle will be a bad Kha. But a Kha who picks up his buff, heads to top's red, wards it, and then hides by the Baron pit will ALWAYS secure a first blood, and then he will make it 2 by going top and ganking there, and then the ganks will just continue, as he now owns top's Jungle.

There's a reason Kha is the only champ with a 60% win rate among people who have more than 200 games, is #1 in jungle kills, and is almost #1 in all other leading regions, and even has a 55% win rate on average. You can pretend he doesn't get Isolation. He does, and it's during the parts of the game that matter. Then, he's strong enough to take on team fights and kill 2-3 before existing with low hp without Isolation. The only reason he has a 55% AVERAGE is due to people who have 7.25 games with him not knowing what they are doing.

Misses Old Talon1 votes

{quoted}

Okay.... 1.

Let's actually example Zoe's level 1 Q. Paddle Star TARGET RANGE: 800 COST: 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 MANA COOLDOWN: 7.5 / 7 / 6.75 / 6.5 / 6.25 Paddle Star FIRST CAST: Zoe hurls a star in the target direction that collides with the first enemy hit, dealing magic damage in a small area, increased by 0% - 150% (based on distance traveled). MINIMUM MAGIC DAMAGE:» 45 / 75 / 105 / 135 / 165 (+ 66% AP) If the star does not hit an enemy, it lingers at maximum range for 1 second. Paddle Star 2 While the star is airborne or while idle, Zoe can reactivate Paddle Star to redirect the star to a new location near her, albeit resetting the current damage modifier. If Zoe moves with the redirected star, it will keep moving until it moves more than 800 units away from her. Both the initial cast and reactivation will prime More Sparkles!.

In other words, level 1, Zoe's max damage on Q is (45+ .66 AP) *2.50 = 71.4 *2.50 = 178.5

That's a far cry from 300-400, and Zoe can't even reach max range level 1, because she doesn't have R yet. Her level 1 hits are closer to 140.

(P.S. Most champs at level 1 have 450-540 HP)

  1. That's a ridiculous portrayal of Kha Zix. Anyone whose even played the game knows that almost 90% of the game is played in Isolation. A jungler takes his second buff in Isolation. A top Lane is always Isolated. Mid is Isolated. The ONLY place early game Kha does not have Isolation to 1 hit is Bot Lane.

Yes. a Kha who afk farms jungle will be a bad Kha. But a Kha who picks up his buff, heads to top's red, wards it, and then hides by the Baron pit will ALWAYS secure a first blood, and then he will make it 2 by going top and ganking there, and then the ganks will just continue, as he now owns top's Jungle.

There's a reason Kha is the only champ with a 60% win rate among people who have more than 200 games, is #1 in jungle kills, and is almost #1 in all other leading regions, and even has a 55% win rate on average. You can pretend he doesn't get Isolation. He does, and it's during the parts of the game that matter. Then, he's strong enough to take on team fights and kill 2-3 before existing with low hp without Isolation. The only reason he has a 55% AVERAGE is due to people who have 7.25 games with him not knowing what they are doing.

You realize Minions, little Monsters from camps, and towers cancel isolation right? So..No, every lane is not always isolated lol.

Emerald Fang2 votes

Considering AD assassins are wildly strong right now I wouldn't say riot hates them... I just think Zoe is way too powerful and her E needs a nerf.

PhantomGG1 votes

honestly i never viewed zoe as a mage, but as a new AP assassin, kinda hard to call someone a mage when they have a fucking dash every 6 seconds lol.

Meriipu10 votes

{quoted}

honestly i never viewed zoe as a mage, but as a new AP assassin, kinda hard to call someone a mage when they have a fucking dash every 6 seconds lol.

it is not a dash though...

Khristophoros1 votes

{quoted}

it is not a dash though...

it's 2 dashes. she goes in, 1 shots somebody, and leaves.

FatedSaviour2 votes

its not a dash, its a blink XD

Khristophoros1 votes

{quoted}

its not a dash, its a blink XD

2 blinks

ZedUsanGovos1 votes

The main point is she has more mobility than your average mage. Ryze has a single mobility spell on his ultimate which has a fairly lengthy cast time. Blink, dash, whatever people think it is, still gives her a MASSIVE advantage-- especially with the increased True Dmg on her Q when someone is asleep-- over other mages.

FatedSaviour1 votes

my main issue with her is the E, that is the only thing that annoys me, especially the fact that the trap is larger than the skillshot, so even if you dodge the skillshot it might just drop and sleep u anyway

AstroFerrari 1 votes

I wasn't playing this game around the time Ryze was strong, but I feel from what I've heard, this is similar to that time. Considering he had point and click hard cc of course.

I had initially thought Zoe would be easy to balance since her Q was her only reliable damage ability but at the very least they will know what to target when trying to balance her.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

You forgot that you can at least see assassins when they're going to kill you, and that even with such mechanics, they can be peeled from.

Meanwhile I don't know how I got killed and CC'd but apparently it was from Zoe.

nuclearwarpotato1 votes

I think its better to compare Zoe to pre-rework AP Nidalee. They seem decently similar in how they nuke people with a long range skill shot that is the primary source of damage. People complained to no end about how much they hated getting chunked for 50-75% of their health from super long range from a single spell to the point where riot admitted this was unhealthy design and reworked her to utilize the rest of her kit right now. Its interesting to me that despite recognizing what people hated in the past they decided to implement a champion that does the same thing but to a more extreme degree.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

{quoted}

I think its better to compare Zoe to pre-rework AP Nidalee. They seem decently similar in how they nuke people with a long range skill shot that is the primary source of damage. People complained to no end about how much they hated getting chunked for 50-75% of their health from super long range from a single spell to the point where riot admitted this was unhealthy design and reworked her to utilize the rest of her kit right now. Its interesting to me that despite recognizing what people hated in the past they decided to implement a champion that does the same thing but to a more extreme degree.

This is the problem with the absurd rate they pump out champions. They inevitably set certain parameters for what is healthy and what isn't but when you're releasing new ones so frequently it's as if some champions slip through the cracks that are so outside the boundaries of what Riot themselves have said is good.

DarthFantasia1 votes

Completely disagree. First off, LB was basically the only champion whose instakill got removed. Zed, Rengar, Fizz, and Khazix can all still instantly delete other champions.

By no means is Zoe's E easy to land. The other player can just sit with their minions all game and you won't be able to land it. Also, unless you shoot it through a wall it barely goes half screen. And if you go 0-4 with her there is no way you are going to one shot anyone. She is extremely item reliant for her damage. Her win rate is also 46% so she isn't that broken.

Teridax681 votes

I think there's definitely at least some kind of inconsistency here, as Zoe's counterplay is pretty lacking relative to most other assassins, and doesn't really follow the same lines of design when it comes to telegraphing burst or giving enemies more options to react. I personally think it might help if her Paddle Star were visible at all times on its recast, and maybe traveled a little slower, but she also has hard CC that isn't all that difficult to land. When contrasted with a champion like Evelynn, who has to work harder to achieve the same thing, and whose unique tools give her far less safety overall, it definitely feels like Zoe received all the goodies an assassin could want, plus extra, without any real apparent downsides.

Rastilan1 votes

Nah man, us Akali players got an energy dump!

Its really changed my gameplay!

...I stopped playing

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Proof that Riot hates Assassins? No. That is a leap of logic I am not willing to make without the rationale to support it.

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