Riot, you need to standardize Total AD vs Bonus AD scaling

Rebonack·Feb 7, 2016·63 votes·4,010 views

Total AD should be a stat that Juggernauts and Tanks (primary or secondary) are interested in. Their scaling should be represented by this.

Bonus AD should be a stat that Marksmen, Assassins, and Strikers want. Their scaling should likewise be represented by this.

Ezreal, for example, should not have a compelling reason to buy . In like manner, Titanic Hydra should be granting %Base attack damage rather than bonus attack damage so as not to be abused by champions like Fiora. Honestly, I would go so far as to say that and all items that build out of it should be granting %Base attack damage just to make it abundantly clear who these items are for.

While we're at it? Make a new Sheen item with Fist as a component (Sheen + Fist + Belt? Sheen + Fist + Recurve?) so heavy Fighters and Juggernauts have a compelling Sheen item to pick. The ADC version really isn't cutting it.

69 Comments

qetzelFeb 7, 201614 votes

On the other hand, buying these items does mean that you are giving up raw offensive stats. Perhaps the balance could be better, but I like that I can pick up semi defensive items against a team with high burst.

On the Sheen item, ice-born gauntlet exists. It uses base attack damage and the zone size is based on armour.

RebonackFeb 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

On the other hand, buying these items does mean that you are giving up raw offensive stats. Perhaps the balance could be better, but I like that I can pick up semi defensive items against a team with high burst.

On the Sheen item, ice-born gauntlet exists. It uses base attack damage and the zone size is based on armour.

Iceborn is meant to be more of a True Tank item. As a general rule of thumb, Riot is trying to bind mitigation stats to Tanks and raw HP to Juggernauts/Heavy Fighters.

ProfDrDeathFeb 7, 20162 votes

The problem with that is that it is a very nice theory...that gets muddled up by reality in the fact that defensive prowess is a multiplicative product of two factors: HP and resistances. And, at one point, it becomes more efficient to increase your defenses by buying resistances instead of raw HP (and vice versa).

TehNACHOFeb 7, 20164 votes

Oh, no, that issue can be dodged.

Look at Garen for example, what with his inflated resistances ala W. Mathematically speaking, having high base values in his resistance pushes him towards building HP to maximize the gold efficiency of his purchases. You can argue that you still need to buy resistances on Garen to round him out by the end game, but during the midgame when the name of the (gold) game is maximizing your stats per gold spent, you should almost entirely be focused on high HP items if you want to maximize your effective health that way.

And then there are multiplicative influences. Juggernaut-like Voli and Mundo have such massive %HP scalings that, and I have checked (granted back in S4, so it may not be accurate anymore) that flat HP essentially never loses out to building armor within the realistic boundaries of a 6(5+Boots) item build.

ProfDrDeathFeb 7, 20163 votes

You're right, there are ways around the issue, especially if mid-game play is concerned.

And Garen is actually a prime example for a well-made Juggernaut in that regard: In addition to the passive tankiness steroid you mentioned, he scales with raw HP in his passive, he has an active %-based damage reduction (scales with HP like resistances) and has low-ish base HP (low in comparison to full tanks, I mean). Meaning, raw HP buys are very good for him.

What I meant was that hard stat-binding is not going to happen, though. You can only nudge champions into prefering one of the defensive stats over the other on a limited budget.

And I am not even getting into the issue of high HP items coming as good resistance items, too. Two items currently have more than 500 HP ( item 3083 item 3022 ). A lot of the 500 HP items feature good armor ( item 3068 item 3143 item 3742 ) and the highest MR values available in game ( item 3102 item 3065 ). Hence, it is no problem picking up a good resistance item for each damage type in a superhigh HP build.

EDIT: And since you mention DrMundo and Volibear : Both of them LOVE item 3065 . It can give them more additional EHP than a Warmog's.

qetzelFeb 8, 20161 votes

True, it is a rule of thumb, but it isn't definite. Juggernauts and heavy fighters probably benefit from IBG more than true tanks do - why would a tank care about a slow field when they have the enemy carry CC locked? A juggernaut would like the extra anti-kite tool much more.

aperson1Feb 7, 20168 votes

TBH Titanic Hydra isn't really a Juggernaut Item anymore. Most of its users are high AS, often devourer using, high mobility bruiser. It is kinda dumb that Fiora uses it so well, but I'd say it's more a symptom of her bases and ratios being out of whack rather than the item intrinsically having a problem.

And the ratios in general are pretty well balanced. Fiora for example has ALL bonus AD ratios. Most diving bruisers (Vi, J4, etc.) have bonus AD ratios on their main spells. And most ADCs actually have relatively low base AD at the time they get around to buying a Sterak's. Again, I'd say that item 3053 being overused is just a symptom of there being too much burst in the game rather than a problem that needs to be addressed directly - there is no real anti-physical burst item to deal with the Zeds and Graves'es of the world, and Hexdrinker, while powerful, doesn't do enough against the likes of LeBlanc and Co. (just watch NRG vs. TIP from yesterday if you need proof of that).

RebonackFeb 7, 20164 votes

{quoted}

TBH Titanic Hydra isn't really a Juggernaut Item anymore. Most of its users are high AS, often devourer using, low mobility bruiser. It is kinda dumb that Fiora uses it so well, but I'd say it's more a symptom of her bases and ratios being out of whack rather than the item intrinsically having a problem.

And the ratios in general are pretty well balanced. Fiora for example has ALL bonus AD ratios. Most diving bruisers (Vi, J4, etc.) have bonus AD ratios on their main spells. And most ADCs actually have relatively low base AD at the time they get around to buying a Sterak's. Again, I'd say that being overused is just a symptom of there being too much burst in the game rather than a problem that needs to be addressed directly - there is no real anti-physical burst item to deal with the Zeds and Graves'es of the world, and Hexdrinker, while powerful, doesn't do enough against the likes of LeBlanc and Co. (just watch NRG vs. TIP from yesterday if you need proof of that).

Fiora absolutely has the right type of scalings. The problem is that Cleaver and Titanic are both pumping her bonus AD. If they boosted base AD instead, then she would just be getting slightly stronger basic attacks from them rather than amping her true damage and heals. She could still buy them if she wants the extra bulk, but she would be paying for it.

Great OzymandiusFeb 8, 20161 votes

Although sheen/triforce would become incredibly strong if sterak's, cleaver, and titanic all increased base AD, since triforce proc triples your base ad on next attack.

RebonackFeb 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Ozymandius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BHwPQjsg,comment-id=000800000001,timestamp=2016-02-08T03:27:25.706+0000)

Although sheen/triforce would become incredibly strong if sterak's, cleaver, and titanic all increased base AD, since triforce proc triples your base ad on next attack.

As said, this all would require quite a bit of item reworking.

It might be that Sheen and Friends would need to do 50-100 (100-200) bonus damage based on level rather than scaling off base AD. Or maybe not. I really have no way of knowing. But the distinction between total AD and bonus AD ratios would be a very powerful balancing tool as well as a very useful way of making some items less attractive to certain classes of champions.

That isn't to say there wouldn't be exceptions to the rule, though.

Great OzymandiusMar 4, 20161 votes

True, and I don't disagree with you. I think you have identified the right solution, though it would require a fair amount of tuning.

The Yetii RiderFeb 7, 20167 votes

Someone doesn't remember Season 3.

Bonus AD ratios are absolutely necessary to keep champions like Vi, Lee Sin, Jarvan, Xin Zhao and the like from building full tank and beasting on you.

This class, called diving fighters, need both AD and tank at the same time to do their job. They're not juggernauts, but they're not strikers like Fiora or Tryn either. If you let them use total AD for their kits they will run RAMPANT over everyone.

RebonackFeb 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Someone doesn't remember Season 3.

Bonus AD ratios are absolutely necessary to keep champions like Vi, Lee Sin, Jarvan, Xin Zhao and the like from building full tank and beasting on you.

This class, called diving fighters, need both AD and tank at the same time to do their job. They're not juggernauts, but they're not strikers like Fiora or Tryn either. If you let them use total AD for their kits they will run RAMPANT over everyone.

Then keep their ratios as Bonus AD to prevent them from being silly?

The Yetii RiderFeb 7, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Then keep their ratios as Bonus AD to prevent them from being silly?

You said "Bonus AD should be a primary stat of marksmen, assassins and strikers".

If we make all the items have base AD like Sterak's or no tank stats like Infinity Edge then these diving fighters will have no itemization.

RebonackFeb 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You said "Bonus AD should be a primary stat of marksmen, assassins and strikers".

If we make all the items have base AD like Sterak's or no tank stats like Infinity Edge then these diving fighters will have no itemization.

Ah, okay, I see what you're saying.

Black Cleaver would still be a Bonus AD item, so would Trinity Force. So would Maw. Only items that build out of Jaurim's Fist would be granting addition base attack damage. So builds like Trinity + Cleaver + Tank would still be workable. That may or may not leave itemization holes for for Dive-Fighters, which can of course be fixed with new items that cater to them. But then again, Riot promised that they would be working on that class ages ago and nothing materialized. Seems like it's about time, yes?

The Yetii RiderFeb 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Ah, okay, I see what you're saying.

Black Cleaver would still be a Bonus AD item, so would Trinity Force. So would Maw. Only items that build out of Jaurim's Fist would be granting addition base attack damage. So builds like Trinity + Cleaver + Tank would still be workable. That may or may not leave itemization holes for for Dive-Fighters, which can of course be fixed with new items that cater to them. But then again, Riot promised that they would be working on that class ages ago and nothing materialized. Seems like it's about time, yes?

Trinity + Cleaver only gives 85 bonus AD. It's alright, I guess, but we are about to see J4, Riven and Lee Sin go crazy with the new assassin item. Expecting some nerfs.

J E B A ł T E DFeb 7, 20165 votes

I thought this was a great idea until I realized this will constrict player freedom in build paths. I feel like that con outweighs any pros that can come with this. Sorry, gonna have to vote C. Needs more battle walrus

LilStacey87Feb 7, 20164 votes

I havnt ran across a Titanic Hydra recently but I highly agree with item 3052 raising base AD on Items it builds. I think they should look into doing something with the Frozen Mallet and Base AD as well. Great post, up-voting it for views.

Also, if you like Champion concepts, please feel free to read a concept I created and let me know what you think. Aayran, The Telekinetic

RisenDarkKnightFeb 7, 20164 votes

WTF are strikers?

RebonackFeb 7, 20165 votes

{quoted}

WTF are strikers?

Fiora, Yi, Try, Samurai Bob, ect.

Often called melee ADCs or light fighters.

RisenDarkKnightFeb 7, 20161 votes

Ok thank you. Hadn't heard that term for them before.

The RewrittenFeb 8, 20161 votes

No I'm with you. I have never in my many years heard this term. I swear he made it up.

RebonackFeb 8, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Rewritten,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BHwPQjsg,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-08T04:41:16.062+0000)

No I'm with you. I have never in my many years heard this term. I swear he made it up.

Riot doesn't have an official term for them yet. I managed to get 'Fighter' to stick on the Boards back in Season 1, so I figured I would just keep using a name that makes sense to me until Riot says otherwise.

AuroramancerFeb 7, 20164 votes

Yeah, I think Riot could do a better job of stat binding Total AD, Bonus AD, and Base AD scalings onto certain champion classes, in the interest of item balance and reducing item abuse cases.

The LovelessFeb 7, 20163 votes

triforce and ibg both are good on tanks

kasfasFeb 8, 20163 votes

I would like to leave this here.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/brpELqUb-hey-riot-can-we-give-titanic-hydra-and-other-juggernaut-offensive-items-additive-base-ad

Anu3isIIFeb 7, 20162 votes

Some Marksman are balanced around having total AD ratios (Sivir for example). This limits their early game power, while allowing them to have more damage in the late game.

About things like Fiora or other bad things, I think the abusive champions can be particularly balanced through some small number changes to accomplish the proper power curve that champion should have.

PS: I agree with you that Bruiser Fiora shouldn't be a thing, but it is a different subject compared to your "standardization" idea.

MunchCrunchLunchFeb 7, 20162 votes

it shouldn't be that straight forward. some champs that are kind of in between of both should have either scaling. but someone like graves shouldn't scale off base ad. but then again. ezreal Q is a basic attack it only makes sense that it scales off base ad. if you take that from ezreal hes really useless.

ProfDrDeathFeb 7, 20162 votes

Another issue is: Bonus AD ratios and total AD ratios are not only used to differentiate between types of champions. Actually, they are equally tied to how a given ability on a champion should scale throughout the game and how prone a champion is to snowballing.

Most abilities that scale on total AD have way lower base damages than those scaling on bonus AD, accounting for the respective champion's base AD growth.

For example, Sivir's Boomerang Blade was changed back in patch 3.14 to scale on Total AD instead of bonus AD. This allowed Riot to lower the ability's base damage, calculating Sivir's AD growth into it, curbing her early damage potential from maxing Q and smoothing out her power curve. For numbers, the ability's damage without bonus AD at level 1/3/5/7/9/18: Pre-3.14: 60/105/150/195/240/240 + 1.1 bonus AD 3.14: 60/89.8/120.8/153/186.4/216.1 + 0.7/0.8/0.9/1.0/1.1/1.1 non-base AD

Second example, Riven: Riven's Broken Wings were adjusted on patch 4.1 to scale on Total AD. Same as above: Pre-4.1: 30/55/80/105/130/130 + 0.7 bonus AD 4.1: 30.4/55.65/81.5/109.05/136.2/153 + 0.4/0.45/0.5/0.55/0.6/0.6 non-base AD The goal here was to lower Riven's snowballing potential with bonus AD, while keeping her late-game damage (mostly) intact. With the rework, she'd need to have 230 or more bonus AD to deal less damage in the late game.

Point is, by changing most AD ratios on a (largely arbitrary) categorisation, you might be breaking the way they are supposed to be scaling through the game on a lot of champions.

FantasySniperFeb 7, 20162 votes

This would actually fix Fiora Riven MasterYi and a whole bunch of other abusers of bruiser items.

YossarianSenseiFeb 8, 20162 votes

I can't say I agree

Just like there are ways to abuse the numbers in this system, there will be ways to abuse the numbers in your proposed system.

ForgiveColourFeb 8, 20162 votes

this thread just gave me cancer

RebonackFeb 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

this thread just gave me cancer

You should probably start a chemo regiment right away. I would be really sad if you weren't here to shitpost in my topic anymore.

AudiomancyFeb 7, 20161 votes

Fiora isn't supposed to be a juggernaut. She's meant to be a light fighter; quick and hard-hitting, but squishy.

Juggernaut Fiora's jugs need to be jugged.

RebonackFeb 7, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shock n Awe,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BHwPQjsg,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2016-02-07T19:21:47.200+0000)

Fiora isn't supposed to be a juggernaut. She's meant to be a light fighter; quick and hard-hitting, but squishy.

Juggernaut Fiora's jugs need to be jugged.

And making First and all items that build out of it give %Base rather than Bonus AD would accomplish this. Fiora could still buy them if she wants, but they wouldn't be making her heals or true damage any stronger.

charcharmunroFeb 7, 20161 votes

I often wondered why there wasn't a "health Sheen", as it were, y'know, a Sheen-like item that gives health instead of mana. Then I realised basically only Shen and maybe Garen/Mundo would need it and Garen and Mundo'd be more ridiculous with it.

KynamiFeb 8, 20161 votes

You are forgetting a couple champions. Then again they ARE ninjas.

Akali with a full set of ult charges and a non-mana based Sheen item would be crazy.

Additionally that would let Kennen top get some bulk to go with his Q + AA harass in top lane.

Could also make Vladimir pretty stupid after 9th and a 4 second CD Q.

Weiner the PoohFeb 8, 20161 votes

I agree, ruin juggernaut Fiora, but not normal Fiora, the last thing i was is Riot to ruin another one of my mains because they suddenly go popular (rip Sejuani) but if just juggernaut Fiora is made unviable thats fine ( i only play her full ad anyways)

SoMNiaFeb 8, 20161 votes

Then do you want Sheen changed to scale with bonus AD? As it stands, you're going to have a hard time telling Ezreal and Quinn they don't want more base AD, given their attack patterns.

Also, building T. Hydra on Fiora over R. Hydra is really bad. She needs sustain and bonus AD way more than extra health, especially towards late game (where she shines, but also where the healing from her passive tends to fall off in usefulness). Resistances are more efficient on her if you need defense, because of her flat heals. The whole "Tank Fiora" thing is a terrible idea to begin with.

That said, too many ways to improve "base" AD would obscure the meaning of the term and reduce its usefulness as a balance lever — at least given the current system under which LoL operates. It would be a lot of work to design a balanced system in which "base AD" (rename it something like "strength" to avoid confusion) is a stat you can readily improve, given the amount of content (champions and items) that would need to be adjusted to fit into the new system. There's not much evidence that doing so would provide better tools for balance than the current system. Simply producing such evidence would, I suspect, take a lot of work as well. I'm not saying no. I'm saying you'd have to prove that it's worth it. It would not only be a burden on Riot to rework everything, but a burden on tens of millions of players to learn, essentially, a new game that they might not even like anymore.

Hyrum GraffFeb 8, 20161 votes

It's okay not to give every champion only one type of scaling.

For example, total AD ratios provide more reliable power to champions. If they made Ez's Q scale off of bonus AD, they'd need to buff the ratio or base damage to compensate.

Or on the other side, giving some juggernauts bonus AD ratios enables full AD off-builds.

tl;dr, you need to think about what your objectives are when giving a certain scaling, and whether it's abusable. Ezreal item 3053 is probably okay. Fiora item 3748 , maybe not so much.

QuephaFeb 8, 20161 votes

Don't standardize champions, allow them to be different.

LatetotheRaceFeb 8, 20161 votes

Thats why the meta is so f'd up atm, marksmen marksmen everywhere.

Sahn UzalFeb 8, 20161 votes

Battle walrus? I don't get it but it sounds awesome. So I should vote for killing Juggernaut Fiora or I should vote for something related to a walrus...

Killing Fiora is too good to not vote. summoner 31

forrestoFeb 8, 20161 votes

Honestly though, they use these 2 things on a per champion basis as a lever they can use to manage the individual strengths of champions. I've read a few patch notes where a champ ability got changed from one to the other, and usually they say it's based on decisions about how that champion should scale.

RebonackFeb 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Honestly though, they use these 2 things on a per champion basis as a lever they can use to manage the individual strengths of champions. I've read a few patch notes where a champ ability got changed from one to the other, and usually they say it's based on decisions about how that champion should scale.

Back in the early days of League, there were actually rules for AP vs AD scaling.

If an ability did damage and nothing else, it could have AD scaling. If it had any sort of utility, it had to be AP.

Riot discovered that it was more healthy for the game to have more cohesive scaling than following that ideal. I suspect we might have a similar case with stat-binding on base vs bonus AD. It should totally be decided on a champ by champ basis. But thus far Riot hasn't made much use of this new lever. Hence this topic.

Meep ManFeb 8, 20161 votes

Why make it specific? Why not balance champions around whatever scaling is most appropriate.

Teridax68Feb 8, 20161 votes

I feel the issue with those specific items isn't so much with the AD they give on damage-dealers, but rather the tankiness. The AD on Sterak's and Titanic Hydra is, objectively, fairly mediocre when compared to other sources, it's just that the difference in AD is more than made up for in sheer raw health. Ez specifically runs into similar issues when Frozen Fist becomes part of his main build, because he's a naturally slippery champ who, with just that item, can become far too difficult to take down even when he does get caught, thanks to the armor it gives him (and it's quite likely he was one of the reasons why its armor was nerfed over time, long before the itemization-wide armor reductions).

The eternal problem with items that dip equally into both offense and defense is that, aside from being overpicked on bruisers if their bonuses are too general, they can also be used to seriously mitigate the core weakness of squishy damage-dealers, and I don't think it's really good for balancing when squishies can derive similar levels of tankiness from those items as proper tanky champions. Perhaps a possible solution could be to turn health and resistance bonuses on most items into percentile increases, a la regeneration, instead of flat bonuses (with emphasis on "most", since items like Zhonya's and Rylai's / Liandry's would likely be better off sticking with flat amounts), and increase the growth values on tanky champions in order to land them with similar, perhaps even greater amounts of tanky stats with their usual builds. If done right, Titanic Hydra on Fiora could end up offering inefficient amounts of AD and health, making tanky builds significantly worse on her, and similar situations could also be avoided with other champions (e.g. bruiser Fizz, tanky on-hit Master Yi, practically every jungler picking Cinderhulk whenever it's good, etc.).

TerntFeb 8, 20161 votes

I can't understand why Riot hasn't seen a growing trend with their new items and champions recently. Ekko built straight tank, huge damage, then gets nerfed to where he should have been on release. Fiora rework, now she can build tank and still 100-0 you in lane dealing % health true damage. Tahm building straight tank and still out DPSing everybody in the game. They need to clearly define how a champion can be built, if they want a champion to be stronger late game, they need to raise scaling and lower base damage. This was Azir's problem as well. Riot releasing champions in certain states and not being able to balance them for months properly makes the game toxic and completely defeats the purpose of the champion to begin with.

junglerboy16Feb 8, 20161 votes

Who the heck doesn't vote Walrus when Walrus is an option?

All (currently) 164 of you need to reevaluate your lives and get your Walrus priorities straight.