Break even point is about 400 resist in raw gold value for one or the other, 200 resist if they were combined.
EDIT: derp, Riot only changed the AD side didn't they?
Either way, especially when the amplification of flat pen from Voidstaff is taken into account, the flat pen mastery is still better than the combined %Pen mastery against four out of five enemy champions.
DeathBurst3 votesYour maths doesn't check out. The two values are not identical between Armor and MR (because Riot recently buffed AD assassins, most notably via this mastery).
%ArmorPen is better when the target is above 200 Armor, yes. %MRPen is better when the target is above 120 MR, though. And in both cases, it's at level 18. The break even point is lower at lower levels.
200 Armor and 120 MR are both values that tanks easily reach in late game (when they are level 18), so %Pen is better against tanks. But it is not too far above the values reached by a squishy full build with one defensive item, so it's not so terribly worse than the FlatPen. It is worse, but not terribly worse.
It is consistent with the rest of the Mastery system. Red tree is for Sustained Damage champ, who ultimately have to deal with tanks, so there is %Pen in the red tree. Purple tree is for Burst champs (either mage or assassin), who wants to burst and eliminate high priority targets, who are generally squishy. So they get Flat Pen, better against small amount of resistances than the %Pen in Red tree.
Rebonack1 votesYour maths doesn't check out. The two values are not identical between Armor and MR (because Riot recently buffed AD assassins, most notably via this mastery).
You're right, for some reason I was thinking the flat pen mastery gave the same amount for both armor and MR, my bad.
Though the main point still stands. The %Pen masteries really should be combined and some non-penetration sustained damage tool should be added.
DeathBurst1 votesThe error is understandable. The amounts were identical until the last patch, where they increased ArPen to buff AD assassins.
I'm not sure combining the 2 is a good idea. Guinsoo was OP, but it's also because of the hybrid masteries that all the hybrid champs were broken. And if you look into Cuning, the other mastery beside Precision is not a damage option, it's CDR. So I don't think there need to be another damage tool in Ferocity.
Partholonian1 votesHaving them separate doesn't feel like a good design though. For most champions it's "I'm AD, I'll take this one, duh" or "I'm AP, I'll take that one, duh", and for a few, "Why does Riot hate my class?"
The mastery tier should provide a meaningful choice to the majority of people who are that deep in the tree. Combining the %pen masteries and adding a new option that can meaningfully compete with them would be one way to accomplish that (while being very little power gain for most champions). If this incidentally makes some hybrids OP, nerf them individually, not through screwing them over in a peripheral system that is under the radar to most players.
ProfDrDeath1 votesTo add something:
Precision is better than BB/PT if the target has that amount of resistances AFTER the respective penetration item. For MR, for example, that means you'd need over 184 MR before Void Staff for PT to be more efficient.
And in any given game, a maximum of 1 person has that kind of MR.
DeathBurst1 votesExcept you don't always build Void Staff, because you don't need to, PT is sufficient, and you can have one more item slot for something else.
But yeah, PT/BB is worse than Precision against squishies, and this is intended. If you want to burst squishies, go Cunning, not Ferocity, because you also want Thunderlord for burst. But you have to let go DFT/FoB and the %Pen for that, so you'll have a noticeably harder time against tanks.
ProfDrDeath2 votesPT is not sufficient to deal deal with a target that is getting enough MR for it to be worth more than Precision.
120 MR target, 22.8 flat MPen + 7% scaling (88.8 remaining MR) 300 base + 0.8 AP scaling spell. Keep in mind, this is generous - most spells in this game have less base damage and scale worse. 300 AP (spell deals 540 magic damage)
Damage to target: 286
Damage with Void Staff (49.74 residual MR, +80 AP): 403
Necessary extra AP (on top of existing 300) to get the same damage: 276.9
To get the same damage from building AP instead of Void Staff, you'd need 276.9 AP on top of the already existing 300. The only item that can give you so much is Rabadon's, which is 1150 gold more expensive - and you might've build it already to get to the 300 existing AP in the first place.
Rebonack1 votesExcept you don't always build Void Staff, because you don't need to, PT is sufficient, and you can have one more item slot for something else.
But yeah, PT/BB is worse than Precision against squishies, and this is intended. If you want to burst squishies, go Cunning, not Ferocity, because you also want Thunderlord for burst. But you have to let go DFT/FoB and the %Pen for that, so you'll have a noticeably harder time against tanks.
Nah, you pretty much always want Voidstaff. It's still one of the most cost-efficient damage amplification tools in the game.
Partholonian1 votesShould they rework it like Last Whisper? "Kill everything better" isn't the healthiest item design.
I feel like Liandry's is awkwardly designed too; it combines flat pen with %hp damage, which makes it good against... 6 Warmog's Mundo? It's the same problem as old Black Cleaver: squishy-murdering and tank-busting stats/abilities on the same item.
There should be a sharper separation between items that say "I want to blow up squishies" and items that say "I want to bust tanks". Old LW did both, new LW only does the latter. Bring the same distinction to the next AP item rework.
This would also be a good opportunity to remove the gratuitous grievous wounds on Morellonomicon (when people are just building it for the stats) and make grievous wounds more of a deliberate choice that you have to make tradeoffs to get.
Anyway, back to the topic of penetration masteries, they already have the right kind of separation conceptually, but maybe the %pen ones are tuned too low?
Abyssphere1 votesShould they rework it like Last Whisper? "Kill everything better" isn't the healthiest item design.
I feel like Liandry's is awkwardly designed too; it combines flat pen with %hp damage, which makes it good against... 6 Warmog's Mundo? It's the same problem as old Black Cleaver: squishy-murdering and tank-busting stats/abilities on the same item.
There should be a sharper separation between items that say "I want to blow up squishies" and items that say "I want to bust tanks". Old LW did both, new LW only does the latter. Bring the same distinction to the next AP item rework.
This would also be a good opportunity to remove the gratuitous grievous wounds on Morellonomicon (when people are just building it for the stats) and make grievous wounds more of a deliberate choice that you have to make tradeoffs to get.
Anyway, back to the topic of penetration masteries, they already have the right kind of separation conceptually, but maybe the %pen ones are tuned too low?
Void Staff is indeed pretending to be a tank-busting choice when really it's always worth building, but I don't really see why that's not healthy. "Kill everything better" is the point of every ADC item and Rabadon's Deathcap to boot. Void Staff isn't an interesting item but unhealthy is a stretch when it doesn't do anything negative to the game. I think there are potentially benefits to reworking it like Last Whisper, though the potential negatives should be thought about too.
I used to agree with you on Liandry's but they gave context on it when they did the AP item rework a while back and basically its job is to dissuade health stacking and force the enemy team to build MR. Liandry's was introduced at a time when health stacking was enough to invalidate a mage alone so that tanks had to actually itemise against mages rather than ignoring them by itemising against ADCs. Flat pen punishes enemies for relying on their base MR values to survive, and % HP damage punishes them for building huge amounts of health. Liandry's is actually quite well designed IMO, as it fulfills its function of killing targets who are relatively squishy against magic damage, but can also work very well against MR stacking when combo'd with Void Staff.
Agreed on the Morello Grievous Wounds, but I have to ask you where you'd put GW otherwise? It's either going to be on an item where you buy it for other stuff or you're just not going to buy it, IMO. Nobody will buy "AP + GW" because...they just need other stuff more. Personally I've always felt that the best way to make GW an actual option rather than something mages just happen to pick up is to make another mana regen item. Right now the only thing you give up for GW is the excessive waveclear potential of Grail, which basically means you always get Morello unless your mana is particularly bad. Making it so that mana regen item choice goes beyond "How good or bad is my mana?" would make Morello much less ... default.
Slamurai Jack1 votesThe break even point at lvl 1 is 71 of a particular resistence before factoring in anything else, and the break even point goes up by 7 per level, finally breaking even at 200 of each resist at lvl 18. You're very likely to reach that against nearly every tank for armor but very rarely against MR, which I likely believe was intended on Riot's part.
Hard4Hamsters1 votesI agree that the flat pen mastery is better for most of the game but the keystone masteries in each tree are drastically different. The Cunning tree is for assassins and support type characters primarily based on the keystones, which you are investing in when you get the flat pen mastery. Burst mages/marksmen may find Thunderlords or Stormraiders more appealing, but for the most part, mages, fighters, and adc's would probably prefer one of the three Ferocity keystones.
I don't think it is really necessary for masteries to be equal in power when looking at different trees, as you have to give up something in return that might be more appealing on another tree. They made this change primarily to help AD assassins who are having trouble with the current meta and I think it will work. I'm not sure if it is going to work too well, but this is a significant buff to these champions. With the new Assassin mastery as well, I wouldn't be surprised to see most midlaners (and some toplaners) to take 18 points in Cunning over Ferocity even if they were doing well with DFT or Fervor. We'll probably see a lot of 18/12/0 as well for more dps centered champs, but I think people are really appreciating the extra burst from Thunderlord's and the flat pen mastery that will help them a lot more in winning lane.