Request for balance team.

BerylCrab·Sep 6, 2017·2 votes·410 views

Get rid of jax's dodge OR Bring it back to items. You can't use the logic "dodge is too powerful" and remove it from items while at the same time giving jax a 100% dodge ability. Either its too powerful or it isn't.

18 Comments

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20173 votes

{quoted}Get rid of jax's dodge OR Bring it back to items. You can't use the logic "dodge is too powerful" and remove it from items while at the same time giving jax a 100% dodge ability. Either its too powerful or it isn't.

Not quite true. By the logic of "it's either too powerful or it isn't" everyone should have Caitlyn range, since it's clearly either fine or too strong. In reality, it depends on the kit and the circumstances.

Jax's dodge is actually pretty balanced, since there's no random chance in it -- it's simply a window in which he's immune to auto-attacks, sort of like Sivir's spellshield makes her immune to a spell. It's part of his kit's specific balance, and its duration and cooldown are part of his power budget.

Dodge as an ITEM, however, worked unreliably, was based on random chance, applied 100% of the time to every attack without any window other than the random chance, and could be purchased on anyone, which had a chance to make characters who were supposed to be easy to kill suddenly unreasonably tanky.

It's not really the same as far as balance is concerned -- this model is MUCH easier to balance, and creates much fewer problem areas in the game.

BerylCrabSep 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BFKZwN38,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-09-06T20:18:41.366+0000)

Not quite true. By the logic of "it's either too powerful or it isn't" everyone should have Caitlyn range, since it's clearly either fine or too strong. In reality, it depends on the kit and the circumstances.

Jax's dodge is actually pretty balanced, since there's no random chance in it -- it's simply a window in which he's immune to auto-attacks, sort of like Sivir's spellshield makes her immune to a spell. It's part of his kit's specific balance, and its duration and cooldown are part of his power budget.

Dodge as an ITEM, however, worked unreliably, was based on random chance, applied 100% of the time to every attack without any window other than the random chance, and could be purchased on anyone, which had a chance to make characters who were supposed to be easy to kill suddenly unreasonably tanky.

It's not really the same as far as balance is concerned -- this model is MUCH easier to balance, and creates much fewer problem areas in the game.

Gotta love how you read my post, but glean only the information from it that you want to. My point wasn't that it's either too powerful or it isn't its that you can't say as in your example "caitlyn's range is too powerful" and then leave caitlyn's range alone, thus admitting that her range is too strong, while at the same time leaving it in the game. How can people be this stupid.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20172 votes

{quoted}Gotta love how you read my post, but glean only the information from it that you want to. My point wasn't that it's either too powerful or it isn't its that you can't say as in your example "caitlyn's range is too powerful" and then leave caitlyn's range alone, thus admitting that her range is too strong, while at the same time leaving it in the game. How can people be this stupid.

Your statement is equating Jax's dodge to the item purchased Dodge though, and I'm pointing out that, in terms of their mechanical role, they actually serve very different purposes with very different balancing levers. 100% dodge for a limited window is in no way the same as 50% dodge for an entire game, and the "don't attack Jax during this time" counterplay is much cleaner than the "you'll miss 50% of your attacks against this guy with no way to tell which ones" lack of counterplay the item had

I'll grant you the Caitlyn range comment wasn't as apropos as I thought at the time though. Apologies for that.

BerylCrabSep 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BFKZwN38,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-06T20:30:39.030+0000)

Your statement is equating Jax's dodge to the item purchased Dodge though, and I'm pointing out that, in terms of their mechanical role, they actually serve very different purposes with very different balancing levers. 100% dodge for a limited window is in no way the same as 50% dodge for an entire game, and the "don't attack Jax during this time" counterplay is much cleaner than the "you'll miss 50% of your attacks against this guy with no way to tell which ones" lack of counterplay the item had

I'll grant you the Caitlyn range comment wasn't as apropos as I thought at the time though. Apologies for that.

So a dodge item would be perfectly okay provided that it gave 100% dodge on a 15second cooldown, not to mention an aoe stun? It is truly amazing that people think that 100% dodge PLUS an aoe stun on one standard ability is balanced. I can think of many, many ultimate abilities that do not do nearly as much, and have a much longer cooldown.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So a dodge item would be perfectly okay provided that it gave 100% dodge on a 15second cooldown, not to mention an aoe stun? It is truly amazing that people think that 100% dodge PLUS an aoe stun on one standard ability is balanced.

Now you're just suggesting lifting an ability off of one champion and assuming it's balanced across all other kits just because it's on an item. That's a little silly.

What I'm saying is that dodge, as a mechanic that blocks a random % of attacks with no counterplay (i.e. you attack, and only after you've committed to an action do you get to find out if it was wasted), is strictly worse from a gameplay health perspective than an ability with an obvious and reliable effect you can play around, and that dodge, as a mechanic baked into SPECIFIC kits, is easier to deal with than dodge when ANY kit can access it.

So no, that item would not be balanced -- as an item. But it would be healthier for the game in terms of counterplay it creates than the old dodge, as there are clear moments of power.

It's not an item though -- it's part of a champion kit, and thus power put into that ability is taken from the power budget of the rest of the kit. I'm not 100% up to date on my Jax balance but with the tuning levers of cooldown, duration, damage, AoE radius, and stun duration I fully believe the ability itself has enough tuning levers to be balancable in some form while retaining the 100% dodge portion AND the stun.

BerylCrabSep 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BFKZwN38,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-06T20:37:37.880+0000)

Now you're just suggesting lifting an ability off of one champion and assuming it's balanced across all other kits just because it's on an item. That's a little silly.

What I'm saying is that dodge, as a mechanic that blocks a random % of attacks with no counterplay (i.e. you attack, and only after you've committed to an action do you get to find out if it was wasted), is strictly worse from a gameplay health perspective than an ability with an obvious and reliable effect you can play around, and that dodge, as a mechanic baked into SPECIFIC kits, is easier to deal with than dodge when ANY kit can access it.

So no, that item would not be balanced -- as an item. But it would be healthier for the game in terms of counterplay it creates than the old dodge, as there are clear moments of power.

It's not an item though -- it's part of a champion kit, and thus power put into that ability is taken from the power budget of the rest of the kit. I'm not 100% up to date on my Jax balance but with the tuning levers of cooldown, duration, damage, AoE radius, and stun duration I fully believe the ability itself has enough tuning levers to be balancable in some form while retaining the 100% dodge portion AND the stun.

So its silly when im lifting a champions ability to an item, but not an item's ability that is deemed too powerful to a champion? While at the same time making said ability MORE powerful than it was on any item? I dont see how this makes any sense.

I'm just trying to apply logic to one of riot's many, many balance changes using the statements they provided. Sorry if it seems like im just being difficult, but i'm actually just trying to make it make logical sense.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So its silly when im lifting a champions ability to an item, but not an item's ability that is deemed too powerful to a champion?

Right. Here's the thing.

Items have a power budget, and you have to design items expecting that a wide variety of champions can purchase it. That power budget is also smaller than that of a champion's kit -- compare most item actives to most champion abilities. The power/cooldown ratio of item actives is FAR below the power budget of most abilities.

A champion, meanwhile, has a power budget that is UNIQUE TO THAT CHARACTER. Take Blitzcrank -- most of his budget is in that powerful hook he has, and the rest of his kit isn't that great. But if you took that hook off and put it on an item you'd have something insanely powerful, because suddenly everyone can buy into the bulk of Blitzcrank's power, and effectively become 50% Blitzcrank in addition to 100% their own champion. Buying, say, Evelynn's E, on the other hand, doesn't get you anywhere CLOSE to 50% of Evelynn's power. Kits are balanced within themselves, so you can't mix and match like that without breaking things.

This is why champion and item parallels aren't exact.

The two things that are important here are the following:

1 -- Jax does NOT have the same Dodge as items did. What he has is 100% protection from auto-attacks. It sounds similar, but has an important difference -- it is reliable, predictable, and limited in duration. In short, you can play around it. You can balance it. There isn't the frustration of wasted actions on a random dodge proc you had no way to predict -- you have a simple format of "attack Jax now" vs "don't attack Jax now." It's closer to a spell shield or a defensive steroid or even an AoE blind than an old-school dodge.

2 -- Jax is one character. You can balance him around his dodge, as it's part of his kit. It's not something he can opt-into against an AD heavy team to suddenly become, for example, a crit-build Tryndamere who is all but immune to auto-attacks. If Jax is dodging too much you can weaken the dodge, or lower the cooldown. If Dodge is an item, however, and Tryndamere is abusing it...you have no options but nerfing Dodge across the board or hurting ALL Tryndamere builds to hit that one.

I'm just trying to apply logic to one of riot's many, many balance changes using the statements they provided. Sorry if it seems like im just being difficult, but i'm actually just trying to make it make logical sense.

Yep. I get that -- the problem here is you're getting caught up in the word "Dodge." It's two mechanics -- Jax's brief auto-attack immunity, and the old psuedo-random passive dodge effect. The two aren't really the same in terms of gameplay output.

BerylCrabSep 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BFKZwN38,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-06T20:48:56.042+0000)

Right. Here's the thing.

Items have a power budget, and you have to design items expecting that a wide variety of champions can purchase it. That power budget is also smaller than that of a champion's kit -- compare most item actives to most champion abilities. The power/cooldown ratio of item actives is FAR below the power budget of most abilities.

A champion, meanwhile, has a power budget that is UNIQUE TO THAT CHARACTER. Take Blitzcrank -- most of his budget is in that powerful hook he has, and the rest of his kit isn't that great. But if you took that hook off and put it on an item you'd have something insanely powerful, because suddenly everyone can buy into the bulk of Blitzcrank's power.

This is why champion and item parallels aren't exact.

The two things that are important here are the following:

1 -- Jax does NOT have the same Dodge as items does. What he has is 100% protection from auto-attacks. It sounds similar, but has an important difference -- it is reliable, predictable, and limited in duration. In short, you can play around it. You can balance it. There isn't the frustration of wasted actions on a random dodge proc you had no way to predict -- you have a simple format of "attack Jax now" vs "don't attack Jax now." It's closer to a spell shield or a defensive steroid or even an AoE blind than an old-school dodge.

2 -- Jax is one character. You can balance him around his dodge, as it's part of his kit. It's not something he can opt-into against an AD heavy team to suddenly become, for example, a crit-build Tryndamere who is all but immune to auto-attacks. If Jax is dodging too much you can weaken the dodge, or lower the cooldown. If Dodge is an item, however, and Tryndamere is abusing it...you have no options but nerfing Dodge across the board or hurting ALL Tryndamere builds to hit that one.

Yep. I get that -- the problem here is you're getting caught up in the word "Dodge." It's two mechanics -- Jax's brief auto-attack immunity, and the old psuedo-random passive dodge effect. The two aren't really the same in terms of gameplay output.

I disagree completely. allow me to explain how they are exactly the same in practice. Lets say you have 25% dodge chance on your items. this means the roughly 1 out of 4 atttacks against you will be dodged. As you stated, jax's dodge ability has a 15 second cooldown and makes you invulnerable to auto attacks of any kind (including ezreal's Q and vayne's tumble) for 3 seconds. now lets do some basic math. 15 second cooldown minus 3 seconds of invulnerability (dodge) equals 12 seconds out of 15 where jax can be hit with auto attacks.

12 seconds out of 15 seconds is 80%. therefore jax's ability gives him a 20% dodge chance. Only it is much better than that because you can choose when that 20% dodge occurs. (when you go to trade) So in reality, jax's dodge ability is superior in every way to the dodge items that were deemed too strong and taken out, not to mention it also has an aoe stun attached to it.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I disagree completely. allow me to explain how they are exactly the same in practice. Lets say you have 25% dodge chance on your items. this means the roughly 1 out of 4 atttacks against you will be dodged. As you stated, jax's dodge ability has a 15 second cooldown and makes you invulnerable to auto attacks of any kind (including ezreal's Q and vayne's tumble) for 3 seconds. now lets do some basic math. 15 second cooldown minus 3 seconds of invulnerability (dodge) equals 12 seconds out of 15 where jax can be hit with auto attacks.

12 seconds out of 15 seconds is 80%. therefore jax's ability gives him a 20% dodge chance. Only it is much better than that because you can choose when that 20% dodge occurs. (when you go to trade) So in reality, jax's dodge ability is superior in every way to the dodge items that were deemed too strong and taken out, not to mention it also has an aoe stun attached to it.

If you spend the entire game attacking Jax, yes.

Remember, in a teamfight you have more targets. You have options other than "lose damage to Jax."

Compare these two. Assume that, in both, you want to kill Jax.

Jax with 100% dodge, Caitlyn with 0% Dodge.

Your can't hit Jax, so you hit Caitlyn for 2 seconds. Then Jax's barrier is down, so you hit him 100% of the time. You have 100% DPS uptime.

Jax with 50% dodge, Caitlyn with 0% Dodge.

Your situation here isn't as clear. You'd LIKE to kill Jax, so you focus him. 50% of your attacks are WASTED. You don't get that damage. You can't wait it out. There's no place you can swap to another target and then come back to Jax -- whenever you hit him, he's blocking 50% of your attacks. You can't even know which he'll dodge in advance, so you don't get to optimize your attacks.

Over a minute of constant attacking, the two are the same mathematically. But they're NOT the same in actual gameplay.

BerylCrabSep 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BFKZwN38,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-06T20:59:49.955+0000)

If you spend the entire game attacking Jax, yes.

Remember, in a teamfight you have more targets.

Compare these two. Assume that, in both, you want to kill Jax.

Jax with 100% dodge, Caitlyn with 0% Dodge.

Your can't hit Jax, so you hit Caitlyn for 2 seconds. Then Jax's barrier is down, so you hit him 100% of the time. You have 100% DPS uptime.

Jax with 50% dodge, Caitlyn with 0% Dodge.

Your situation here isn't as clear. You'd LIKE to kill Jax, so you focus him. 50% of your attacks are WASTED. You don't get that damage. You can't wait it out. There's no place you can swap to another target and then come back to Jax -- whenever you hit him, he's blocking 50% of your attacks. You can't even know which he'll dodge in advance, so you don't get to optimize your attacks.

Over a minute of constant attacking, the two are the same mathematically. But they're NOT the same in actual gameplay.

This would make sense except for due to jax's hypercarry nature and the fact that he is an initiator by design, at the time he is using his dodge ability, there is really only one viable target to be dealing damage to, which is jax. Because he is currently trying to engage on your carries or just engage in general and is the only person in range at any elo higher than silver.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This would make sense except for due to jax's hypercarry nature and the fact that he is an initiator by design, at the time he is using his dodge ability, there is really only one viable target to be dealing damage to, which is jax. Because he is currently trying to engage on your carries or just engage in general and is the only person in range at any elo higher than silver.

This is definitely hyperbole, as his win rate is currently just over 50% in Plat+. :P

But yeah -- in some situations it can be frustrating. But ANY champion in their ideal situation feels powerful. In Jax's case that's when he's barreling down an auto-attacking character who doesn't have any other targets or spell-damage allies nearby.

BerylCrabSep 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BFKZwN38,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-06T20:59:49.955+0000)

If you spend the entire game attacking Jax, yes.

Remember, in a teamfight you have more targets. You have options other than "lose damage to Jax."

Compare these two. Assume that, in both, you want to kill Jax.

Jax with 100% dodge, Caitlyn with 0% Dodge.

Your can't hit Jax, so you hit Caitlyn for 2 seconds. Then Jax's barrier is down, so you hit him 100% of the time. You have 100% DPS uptime.

Jax with 50% dodge, Caitlyn with 0% Dodge.

Your situation here isn't as clear. You'd LIKE to kill Jax, so you focus him. 50% of your attacks are WASTED. You don't get that damage. You can't wait it out. There's no place you can swap to another target and then come back to Jax -- whenever you hit him, he's blocking 50% of your attacks. You can't even know which he'll dodge in advance, so you don't get to optimize your attacks.

Over a minute of constant attacking, the two are the same mathematically. But they're NOT the same in actual gameplay.

yep, you are right, they aren't the same in actual gameplay, in actual gameplay jax's realistic dodge chance is much, much higher than 20% because he only uses it when he is planning to attack, which is the only time you can be attacking him.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

yep, you are right, they aren't the same in actual gameplay, in actual gameplay jax's realistic dodge chance is much, much higher than 20% because he only uses it when he is planning to attack, which is the only time you can be attacking him.

Yes, his practical in direct combat dodge percentage is pretty effective. Remember, again, but he is designed with that in mind as a balancing factor, and it creates a predictable output for players on both sides.

In short, Jax is mechanic is not dodge. Whether or not his specific ability is over tuned has no bearing on whether the randomized dodge available to all champions was a good or balanced mechanic for the game.

If you want to have a conversation on the balance of Jax, that's fine. But the two mechanics are functionally different and have different effects on the game.

BerylCrabSep 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BFKZwN38,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-09-06T21:09:37.851+0000)

Yes, his practical in direct combat dodge percentage is pretty effective. Remember, again, but he is designed with that in mind as a balancing factor, and it creates a predictable output for players on both sides.

In short, Jax is mechanic is not dodge. Whether or not his specific ability is over tuned has no bearing on whether the randomized dodge available to all champions was a good or balanced mechanic for the game.

If you want to have a conversation on the balance of Jax, that's fine. But the two mechanics are functionally different and have different effects on the game.

Ah but that's where you are making a mistake. I'm not arguing that having dodge items was good. I'm saying that you cant on one hand say that dodge is too strong, while at the same time give champions like jax and fiora (who are both in a very strong position right now, and this is why) abilities that function just like dodge only better. Especially in fiora's case, at least you can still hit jax with spells during his overpowered ability.

What I am saying is that if you are going to take dodge off of items and your reasoning for doing this is that it is too strong, then you can't turn around and give it to a bunch of champions without looking like an idiot, at least to me.

BerylCrabSep 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BFKZwN38,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-06T20:37:37.880+0000)

Now you're just suggesting lifting an ability off of one champion and assuming it's balanced across all other kits just because it's on an item. That's a little silly.

What I'm saying is that dodge, as a mechanic that blocks a random % of attacks with no counterplay (i.e. you attack, and only after you've committed to an action do you get to find out if it was wasted), is strictly worse from a gameplay health perspective than an ability with an obvious and reliable effect you can play around, and that dodge, as a mechanic baked into SPECIFIC kits, is easier to deal with than dodge when ANY kit can access it.

So no, that item would not be balanced -- as an item. But it would be healthier for the game in terms of counterplay it creates than the old dodge, as there are clear moments of power.

It's not an item though -- it's part of a champion kit, and thus power put into that ability is taken from the power budget of the rest of the kit. I'm not 100% up to date on my Jax balance but with the tuning levers of cooldown, duration, damage, AoE radius, and stun duration I fully believe the ability itself has enough tuning levers to be balancable in some form while retaining the 100% dodge portion AND the stun.

Also, since its part of a champion kit and they used such a large amount of his "power budget" on this ability, why then does he also deal incredibly strong dps and have a very strong gapcloser and great movement speed? All of these things amplify the power level of his dodge/stun ability, not put it in check. As far as i can tell he has one weakness, which is range, but that is largely negated by his dodge/stun ability.

ModThe DjinnSep 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Also, since its part of a champion kit and they used such a large amount of his "power budget" on this ability, why then does he also deal incredibly strong dps and have a very strong gapcloser and great movement speed? All of these things amplify the power level of his dodge/stun ability, not put it in check. As far as i can tell he has one weakness, which is range, but that is largely negated by his dodge/stun ability.

I can't answer for Riot's team, but I'd imagine it's because he's close range, fairly vulnerable to burst, suffers from CC, has trouble disengaging once he's dived in (unless he's good at ward-hopping), has to build up for full effectiveness, and can be bullied out of a lot of lanes.

He's also a bit of an older design, and, I'll admit, doesn't have as much room for skill expression and counterplay as I'd personally like. He's a MONSTER if he gets fed, but fairly forgettable when he doesn't -- but, then again, he's designed as a bruiser hypercarry, so that pattern fits.

But I'm not really in a position to comment on his current SPECIFIC balance -- I don't have the data I'd want to do that.

o0O Madoka O0oSep 6, 20172 votes

Because it's not a persistent stat but an ability that has cd of 15s.

Melee carries all have some sort of invulnerability for them to function, yasuo windwall, Fiora W, master Yi Q and W.

BerylCrabSep 6, 20171 votes

It's just one example of this lack of explanation or logic from riot. another great one is the example of them saying that taric and sion's kits are unhealthy due to their targeted stuns, yet leaving annie's passive, tf's gold card, and ryze's bind (which are essentially exactly the same thing) alone. Not to mention that these champs have much higher burst damage, making the stun even more powerful on them than it was on the champions that they took it away from because it was deemed "too strong"