Tank Ekko Balance question: Why was the "More AP = More Slows" change got scrapped?

BeatzBoyFTW·Aug 17, 2016·53 votes·9,454 views

I remembered back before in PBE, Riot made a change where Ekko's Q slow would scale harder the more AP he builds, so that way, his Tank identity would become much weaker & less noticing. Here I even made a thread about it & got tons of other people supporting it too:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/fqte12EI-ekkos-nerfs-on-pbe-were-on-point

The idea of this balance was suggested by a certain League player, and I swore there was a Meddler comment stating that he thinks it's an interesting idea & wanted to apply it to PBE as soon as possible.

But then again, the idea was completely removed as they proceeded to the "less base damage & more AP scaling" idea, which until now doesn't seem to be effective at all. Hell, even I witnessed an LCS Ekko building Trinity Force out of nowhere.

So let me ask again, especially to Riot. Why was the idea about making slows more stronger from building more AP got scrapped off from PBE before?

74 Comments

RiotMeddlerAug 17, 201627 votes

We were really interested in the idea of AP scaling Ekko's slow as a way to appropriately reward AP builds, while removing some problems from tank or bruiser builds. We ended up going with different changes though after testing the change and finding it didn't do what we'd hoped. In particular:

Tank Ekko still functioned really well, even with reduced slow strength. Tankier builds have an easier time triggering the passive slow, can take bigger risks with the W and, at least at the time, almost always had the IBG slow in there as well.
AP Ekko by contrast's much more reliant on stronger slows, his fallback pattern (utility for team, even if he can't kill people himself) especially. Putting AP scaling on slow strength therefore made AP Ekko much more feast/famine based off his gold income, without addressing tank Ekko much.

We do still see tank/bruiser Ekko as having some problems and are planning to do further work on him as a result, with the goal of pushing him towards an assassin or skirmisher playstyle. Current expectation is that those changes will happen in the pre-season patch with the changes to a number of other assassins or champs with strong assassin qualities.

CubíxAug 17, 20164 votes

Will he get any big changes to his kit or mostly number changes? I know he wasn't apart of the "big 4" but I'm just curious.

RiotMeddlerAug 17, 20169 votes

Probably just number changes, could well be quite a few of them though.

CubíxAug 17, 20162 votes

Alright, I figured. As long as he'll be able to jungle I'll be happy.

My Waifu VanillaAug 17, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Alright, I figured. As long as he'll be able to jungle AS AP I'll be happy.

Ekko works fine as a tank in the jungle, but the second you try to do something AP you go from like a T2 jungler to bottom of the barrel. If I want to play a feast or famine jungler I would rather play Kha, Rengar, or even Kled (who I have had quite a bit of success with despite his ~40% winrate) because AP simply doesn't work in the jungle. Ekko needs way too much money to build AP (he needs AP/Health/resists to function as a psuedo assassin) and just can't get that income in the jungle unless the enemy team force feeds you kills. Even AP Ekko can't do much in lane because, unlike LeBlanc or Diana (other AP Assassins), his waveclear/kill potential in lane is almost non-existent unless the enemy laner (yet again) force feeds you kills by taking your W straight to the face.

CubíxAug 17, 20162 votes

I should have mentions "as ap" my bad, but unlike what you're saying I have fun and do well as ap ekko in the jungle, consistently.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2268866953/204192249?tab=overview (This is an example of just yesterday)

I think ekko strives as a jungler similar to elise or diana, where you build mostly ap and then flex items like abyssal or rylais, spirit visage. items that give him a little meat but not the absurdity that is tank ekko right now.

AckelopeAug 18, 20162 votes

tbh do you have any tips for jungle ap ekko this season?

I played him a ton last season and did quite well a lot, but I haven't been able to get the same handle on things this season, which is somewhat disappointing to me..

6KEMBE4ORBAAug 17, 20162 votes

About time.

ModAcademy KaynAug 17, 20163 votes

Hey question. Instead of his autos doing %missing Health damage when below a certain amount of health, what if it was "Ekko's auto attacks are amped by a percantage, with the percentage increased by target missing health"?

So if Ekko had, for some reason, 100 AD and he was attacking a low health target his auto's would be increased by a percentage?

So instead of (auto + missing health damage), its (auto x percentage increase( based on target's missing health))

Then ya know, make it scale heavily on AP, leaving those who don't build Ap only getting a small increase.

DeathBurstAug 18, 20161 votes

But the X %Missing Health already scales heavily with AP. The fact it's in %Missing Health versus in base times a factor depending on Missing Health is independent from the fact it scales with AP or not.

BakedLotionAug 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Probably just number changes, could well be quite a few of them though.

Straight out nerfs to both tank and AP or only for tank? Please don't fuck up AP Ekko.

AckelopeAug 18, 20162 votes

I would imagine it would be nerfs trying to make tank ekko less rewarding than it is currently, because it accomplishes too much. Riot has said in the past that they think AP ekko is the most healthy way for him to be played, so I'd assume their goal is to make him the more optimal way to play ekko.

MelledoneusAug 17, 20163 votes

Can you guys take a look at trying to disincentivize building tank on Ekko at all? Like, reducing his shield strength base and put it into his AP scaling? I think a big problem is that Ekko's W gives him extra tankiness regardless and it shouldn't protect him if he's already building tank.

ChaosThiefAug 17, 20168 votes

If I may suggest something... Why not do a ratio shift on his E?

If I remember correctly, Tank Ekko relies on base damages and Iceborn Gauntlets. A lot of power still comes off from his E, despite being an auto attack reset and applying on hit effects; hitting his E's base damage and shifting it to ratio may shift power in the right direction since his empowered auto attack from his E would not hurt as much, allowing for more breathing room for his opponents while also making AP Ekko's initiation much more powerful.

That's just my current thoughts on the matter though. The only other thing I can think of is lowering the slow on his passive and boosting the speed up that it gives (Tank Ekko has no trouble sticking to a target, the slow just puts the final nail in the coffin with the iceborn), so that AP ekkos can escape fights more easily while tank ekko's victims would not be slowed down (being able to separate the tank ekko from his allies rather than his victim from his enemies.)

JaghataiAug 17, 20162 votes

Why not just accept that he's a bruiser/fighter/tankier character and optimize for that rather than trying to crowbar him into that weird "skirmish assassin" role? That never made any sense! Prolonged fighters need to be tanky to survive the fact that their damage is slow but dangerous.

You're trying to make a role idea that is at war with itself.

ArakadiaAug 17, 20162 votes

Have you ever considered disabling the items he abuses until this problem is solved? If not why so?

LohenngrammAug 18, 20161 votes

That one's easy. Disabling items is something of a "nuclear option" as it has a large impact on other champions and the game as a whole besides Ekko. Say they do that with item 3742 , now every champion who relies on as a core item is going to struggle while Ekko can still build other tank items. Do that with every item and there would be practically no Bruiser or Tank build paths left for any champion.

The only reason I could see for Riot disabling an item is if it had some sort of horrifically gamebreaking bug attached to purchasing it on the majority of champions.

Stereo DreamerAug 18, 20162 votes

Considering he's an effective tank, is there anything wrong in balancing him around being one?

i.e. nerfing his ult, reducing his scaling damage as well; Basically realizing that perhaps if the community is building him tanky bruiser style, then simply treat him as a bruiser and approach it as so rather than as really really wanting an AP Utility Assassin. I understand that you believe Assassin Ekko is healthier and want to keep him there, but with the kit he has -- it's not easily feasible.

There are future possibilities for one such champion, but this one doesn't need to be it. It's clearly evolved into something else and is probably best to learn from it and adapt the champion to what he has become in terms of balance rather than shift him into what he was envisioned to be after all the time and effort it is taking. Just a thought, but it seems very forced at this point to continue to approach the problem in a linear way.

WyrmbladeAug 18, 20161 votes

Do you think that there's still potential for stat scaling CC? That could be a really neat concept to base a character around, like some sort of support hypercarry.

RiotMeddlerAug 18, 20168 votes

I suspect some degree of it could be done. Would probably want to build a character with that concept in mind though to have it work appropriately, rather than trying to add it to a design made with other issues in mind.

DeathBurstAug 18, 20161 votes

Actually, that's already the case for some standard Enchantresses. Lulu has it, Sona too, and I think Nami too (too lazy to actually check). But in all cases it's on the strength of Speed modifications, not on the duration of the effect, and not on some harder CC like Stun/Root/Silence.

Zok72Aug 18, 20161 votes

Taking a step back, I know Ekko was designed as an assassin/skirmisher and I love playing him that way, but is it possible that Ekko should just be redesigned/rebalanced as a tank? His skills as they exist right now are a target agnostic damage increase that encourages him to engage for a long period of time, an unreliable slow in a large area, a reliable slow/unreliable stun with a shield attached again in a large area, a positioning tool, and a massive heal + positioning tool. The passive is built for bruisers (like Jax or Vi), two of the skills are pretty clearly built for tanks (q and w) and the ultimate is pretty unreliable as far as assassin positioning goes while the large heal is very potent for tanks. It seems to me like Ekko's kit is just a better tank kit than it is an assassin kit. The tools he has are just better for locking down large areas and surviving to hit whoever is near him than they are for carefully selecting a single target and removing them from the map. Furthermore, trying to design a champion to be an unreliable assassin seems like a losing proposition. The only possible outcomes are a reliable assassin, an underpowered assassin, or some other class which cares less about the unreliable nature of the skills. Rather than try to force Ekko to be something he isn't and really can not be with his current kit, let him be something new (like tank jungle Vi, which is a perfectly acceptable solution to the same basic problem).

DeathBurstAug 18, 20161 votes

Tankier builds have an easier time triggering the passive slow

Then, did you try the AP-scaling slow approach on the passive slow instead of the Q slow? That still leaves stronger Q slows from range to even a famined squishy AP Ekko, and should impact Tankko more, no? Or am I missing some important detail?

XonraAug 19, 20161 votes

It boils down to having a ridiculous amount of utility in his kit that just makes it attractive to build him as a bruiser/tank right now with all the mobility on top of it, and how hard it is to finish him off with his ult.

It is like people going bruiser/tank build on Yasuo right now. When you end up with a good amount of utility AND mobility, it is very easy to abuse other builds. The problems are with the overloaded kits of both champs, and the way items seem to be balanced in a vacuum before going live with as easy as they are to abuse.

I mean, I'm even building tank support Thresh and with his souls and kit I can just become a tanky beast to rival most other ACTUAL tank supports, plus somehow do damage.

LordGeovanniAug 19, 20161 votes

wait arent assassin suppsoed to be feast or famine

LatetotheRaceAug 17, 201626 votes

It feels like Ekko is building literally everything else other than AP right now. I've seen several tanks and AD ekkos recently, but no AP builds. It's just hilarious. Since riot won't make good changes (like this one) to him, his build paths go everywhere but where they should be.

TotalJerkAug 18, 20163 votes

It's because he has way too much incentive to stick around instead of quickly getting in and out like a normal assassin. His Q is slow, his W is slow, his 3 hit passive forces him to sit there and whack a target 3 times. There's ultimately just no way you can make a kit like that good on an assassin without making it even better on a bruiser or tank.

ZT XperimentorAug 17, 201618 votes

It was a mistake to give a champion so much; mobility, crowd control, safety, base damage & scaling damage. The whole utility assassin concept cannot end well without being crippled, similar to evelynn & irelia. I don't mind champions having versatile build paths; but when they can clearly build against their class & still perform better than alternative champions of their class, something has gone over the top with design. For those of you who remember the super sustain crazy burst magic master yi, is another example, and mage yi was nerfed into nonexistence by swapping out the ratio types. I suspect ekko is another one of those problematic champions that will always be an issue, until reworked or significantly changed in some fashion to streamline a more intended build.

Maximum MordeAug 17, 201611 votes

Cause he didn't need any buffs at all to ap ekko. Tank Ekko just needs gutted.

KoKobotoAug 17, 20168 votes

Can we just remove the slow on his passive, he already gains insane movement speed off it and has the slow on his Q...

BakedLotionAug 17, 20166 votes

Newflash AP Ekko is superior to tank ekko in every way. There's nothing Tank ekko does that any other tank can't do better. You guys need to stop copying whatever some korean does and thinking it's good.

DontChaseBardAug 17, 20162 votes

just simply not true or people wouldn't be abusing Trinity Force Ekko. the overall outcome on full AP Ekko might be better if you're able to get fed. the tank/bruiser build is much more reliable and safe while still being absolute cancer to squishies with the stick potential. phage movement speed and passive 3-hit movement speed=constantly having Ekko on top of you and nearly impossible to kill. and if you all focus Ekko then he uses his "get out of jail free card" (his ultimate) and resets a good porition of the damage while putting him out of harms way. there is nothing more cancerous than Tank Ekko that has 40% CD and a Guardian Angel. except maybe if he had a Zilean and Yorick on his team.

Fondling GemsAug 17, 20165 votes

Guessing it has to do with the fact that it either meant that tank ekko had no utility, and the issue with tank ekko isn't its existence, just how much dmg it still brought while being tanky, or that AP ekko would have too much utility.

Just a guess of course.

SasogwaAug 17, 201610 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BE7Aiu1f,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-08-17T08:41:43.608+0000)

Guessing it has to do with the fact that it either meant that tank ekko had no utility, and the issue with tank ekko isn't its existence, just how much dmg it still brought while being tanky, or that AP ekko would have too much utility.

Just a guess of course.

The issue of tank ekko is his utility and mobility tbh. It's not like he does more damage and is more tanky than typical champions of the juggernaught class such as Darius or Shyvana.

IceKingChernobogAug 17, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BE7Aiu1f,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-08-17T08:41:43.608+0000)

Guessing it has to do with the fact that it either meant that tank ekko had no utility, and the issue with tank ekko isn't its existence, just how much dmg it still brought while being tanky, or that AP ekko would have too much utility.

Just a guess of course.

Ekko's concept should have never been thought of in the first place but yes the question still comes to how is he doing so much damage as a tank and not an AP assassin.

Lady HammerlockAug 17, 20164 votes

Make his Stun duration scale with AP,make his Slow scale with AP,make his passive move speed boost scale with AP,reduce the passive base damage while increasing AP ratio(his passive has been pretty neglected as a problem,even though it hurts),Make his heal on ult completely flat(with an increased AP ratio) that increases with the amount of damage he took

this would gut AP Ekko's early but destroy tank ekko

CeexSettAug 17, 201612 votes

And in the late game a full AP Ekko would slow you for 80%, stun you for 3 seconds, get 70% mov speed from passive, and so on? Be careful from what you wish.

Lady HammerlockAug 17, 201614 votes

{quoted}

And in the late game a full AP Ekko would slow you for 80%, stun you for 3 seconds, get 70% mov speed from passive, and so on? Be careful from what you wish.

Put a maximum Cap on it,such a simple answer

CeexSettAug 17, 20162 votes

Obviously, but it needs to be low, not too low that it's not worth to get AP, and not too high it isn't too strong.

And we know how Riot is at balancing these things.

ParoeAug 17, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Make his Stun duration scale with AP,make his Slow scale with AP,make his passive move speed boost scale with AP,reduce the passive base damage while increasing AP ratio(his passive has been pretty neglected as a problem,even though it hurts),Make his heal on ult completely flat(with an increased AP ratio) that increases with the amount of damage he took

this would gut AP Ekko's early but destroy tank ekko

Assassins. Dont. need. Hard. CC.

Ekko breaks all the rules of assassins, he needs to be scrapped and reworked.

CubíxAug 17, 20163 votes

Other champions with Primary or secondary title of assassin with hard CC: Malzahar, Pantheon, Jax, Jhin, Rengar, Riven, Shaco, Xin Zhao, and even Xerath.

All of these champs have been listed as assassins, and have the same amount or more CC as ekko, and most have CC thats easier to land than the dome.

JunkοAug 17, 20162 votes

Out of all you mentioned, only Pantheon and Rengar are assassins, and Rengar doesn't even have hard CC.

ModAcademy KaynAug 17, 20163 votes

Except, and i've said this a million times, he is not the normal type of assassin. Look at Zed, Talon, Leblanc and Rengar. They give you so little time to react when they want to kill you. Ekko is by far the slowest when it comes to assassinating people, and has A VISIBLE GLOWING after image that literally tells you where his actual burst is going to be.

ParoeAug 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BE7Aiu1f,comment-id=000300020001,timestamp=2016-08-17T23:59:29.444+0000)

Except, and i've said this a million times, he is not the normal type of assassin. Look at Zed, Talon, Leblanc and Rengar. They give you so little time to react when they want to kill you. Ekko is by far the slowest when it comes to assassinating people, and has A VISIBLE GLOWING after image that literally tells you where his actual burst is going to be.

None of that matters when he has even more mobility than any of them and just as much burst. Ekko does not fit the definition of assassin; he needs a rework to make him into an actual mage... by removing his MS steal and his stun on W. He has the potential to be a very nice AP fighter, like diana, but he has WAY to much because riot wanted this fantasy of a "skirmisher who goes in, gets out, and goes back in".

ModAcademy KaynAug 18, 20161 votes

He has the same amount of Mobility as Zed, Leblanc, and Rengar. Speed boosts don't count as mobility, because they're just a faster version of walking, not a instant "I'm not here anymore". And no, Ekko does not have as much burst as Leblanc, Zed, or Rengar early game, unless YOU fucked up and let him position his ult underneath you.

Late game, Zed, Leblanc, and Rengar can kill their targets faster than Ekko can, because his main damage set up is E-Q and then wind up an Auto, where the others can disperse their damage faster and with less margin for error. He gets slows, stuns and sheilds because he is a slower assassin who actually has to think about what he does and how he does it, unlike other assassins nowadays, who instagib ya without a thought.

Jeddy017Aug 17, 20163 votes

My guess is that they thought the whole "nerf base damages, buff scaling" change was enough, but clearly they were fucking wrong. Well, it's either that or they were lenient with the Tankko nerfs because they were fine with as long as it had trade offs (less damage for more tankiness) & wasn't pushing out AP Ekko. In which case, they were too lenient because Tankko is back better than with Triforce. What they need to do is stop slapping Tankko on the wrist & straight up kill the obnoxious piece of shit.

Make his utility scale with AP so he actually have to take risks to use said utility.

MaeDoSanAug 17, 20162 votes

His q spam is what makes him irritating , other things are fine. Fix his q so that it helps ap ekko more than tank ekko

zlumpyAug 18, 20162 votes

Tbh I think no matter what they do he is gonna end up feeling bad to play against. He just has a very over loaded kit with lots of safety and aggression no matter how he builds.

LordGeovanniAug 18, 20162 votes

ekko needs complete rebalnaceing. i love the guy but he never felt balanced it was always shit on the enemy unless they were playing recently buffed champions or champions that were always broken then it was sit back and still do well