My thoughts on Hecarim

WTBeGirl100EUhr··1 votes·837 views

I am a Hecarim/Sejuani main. Still mastery 6 on both due to a plague of S- but we gettin' there boiz.

Anyways. Multiple indirect buffs have caused Hecarim to become overpowered in his current state.

Top lane Hecarim is currently pretty balanced, and I don't think it should see (noticable) nerfs. As a simple-to-play champion, Hecarim's winrate should sit slightly above 50%, as whilst there are minor intricacies with playing him, such as timing your Q/W to go off during your E animation (to proc Q + TLD if you have it with the bonus AD) but before the MS is consumed, they are not major, are simple to learn, and relatively intuitive.

Hecarim's early-game snowball potential has always been fairly high, however, with the buffs to ghost it is now almost guaranteed. The amount of AD that Ghost gives you from your warpath passive is incredibly valuable early on. As such, at these early-levels you straight-up out-stat other junglers, and your ganks are hard to avoid due to how fast you appear, and the knock-back distance on your E.

If looking to primarily nerf jungle Hecarim, rather than lane Hecarim, I believe the knock-back distance on the E would be the place to start. By not knocking people back as far, it becomes easier for them to escape ganks. Perhaps just revert that change altogether, and revert it to doing a flat knock-back.

If Riot decides that Hecarim altogether is too powerful please do not make changes that will affect his late-game. Hecarim falls off late game already, and transitions largely into a fairly ineffective tank. If the ADC gets ANY peel it becomes extremely difficult to kill them in teamfights once they complete lifesteal, and Zhonyas can cock-block him almost as hard as it does assassins. His role is degraded to a meaty engage tank, a role for which he is outclassed by other champions like Malphite.

The following changes are the ones I would look to for Hecarim: Warpath: 15 to 30% bonus MS as AD => 10% => 30% bonus MS as AD Devastating Charge: Knock Back Distance: 250 to 450 => 300 (revert)

The reason that I do NOT suggest nerfing Hecarim's jungle clear by reducing his Q damage to monsters, is that his clear isn't all that healthy anyway. Whilst his clear reasonably fast, the early sustain is very poor and he is heavily gated by mana. If you DO reduce the Q damage to minions, please lower the mana cost - however, this would be a revert to a change made when top-lane Hecarim was overpowered.

On a similar note, the nerfs to Teleport suck for top lane Hecarim, but I think they suck for most top laners so I don't feel like this has affected him dis-proportionally. I do feel like it is worse for him than others (since Teleport is one of the main reasons to play Hecarim top) but I feel that it is only something to consider when making changes that could affect top-lane Hecarim.

I want to note that Hecarim top lane has fallen out of favor so hard it isn't even a displayed role on champion.gg now.

So please take me seriously when I say that top-lane Hecarim does not need a nerf. Yes Hecarim is out of hand. Please target his jungle performance.

TL;DR: Nerf jungle, but don't nerf his Q damage since his early sustain is fairly poor. Don't nerf top-lane Hecarim. Don't nerf his late game.

16 Comments

Seiferoth2 votes

I'd like for them to try something really weird like have 2-36% bonus MS as bonus AD. So it'd be 2% at level 1 18% at level 9 he's barely have a better passive at level 13, and it'd be 6% better at 18..

I don't know if that nerf/buff is enough, but I feel it's a trade for early game for late... and That's something.. EDIT: (The above is the only thing I really thought about, this is just ranting about being confused) the rest of his kit... Can probably so simliiar things lower damage early game on W/E but higher Late game.. since they're his two longer CD's they're probably easier to lever than his Q

ÁrYaN1 votes

I hope they nerf him, i have nightmares every time i see him.

Sire Hippington1 votes

I think it would be ok to nerf his Q damage vs monster while also increasing the healing his W can get of monsters. His fast clears give him alot room for his devastateing ganks, and while the nerfs to his passive and E will help a bit at makeing his ganks less powerfull, i don't think it'll be enough.

Also, i think his bugger e knockback is great especially for his lategame utillity, and lategame is when he struggles. I'd change the knock back to scale with rank, 200-300 at rank 1, growing to 300-500 at rank 5. Maxing E early is not really an option for heca, as he needs the Q for treades/waveclear in lane and for his clear in the jungle, so his early ganks would certainly be nerfed that way. Any way, i think any nerfs should be focused on his earlygame and either his damage or overall gank potential, and if needed get compensated with buffs to his lategame nad survivabillity. He's a quite snowbally pick which usually makes him pretty overbearing if strong. Shifting some of his earlygame power and damag into survivabillity and lategame should help to keep him viable without snowballing totally out of controll whenever he has a good game.

BluePolarizer1 votes

The only reason Hec jungle is strong right now is because of his E knockback distance and Strength of Ages allowing him to clear healthy without W. That makes it so that he is no longer forced into buying a mana item, reducing his effective build cost and allowing him to snowball the midgame.

Revert Strength of Ages heal component to 100 HP, revert E, and it will lower Hecarim's win rate INSTANTLY.

I am a Hecarim/Shyvana main.

WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votes

SoA does absolutely nothing to help you clear. (You don't heal until it's fully stacked, at which point everyone clears with good health.) +10 HP per camp is not changing his ability to clear any more than Feast is.

What allows junglers to clear healthily is the sheer amount of HP regen available in the resolve tree... none of which you want to take on Hecarim.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Sorry, I meant to say that SoA actively helps you sustain in the jungle. It allows you to heal up after teamfighting or ganking without using W, which increases his farming and ganking uptime.

paperbIade1 votes

{quoted}

The only reason Hec jungle is strong right now is because of his E knockback distance and Strength of Ages allowing him to clear healthy without W. That makes it so that he is no longer forced into buying a mana item, reducing his effective build cost and allowing him to snowball the midgame.

Revert Strength of Ages heal component to 100 HP, revert E, and it will lower Hecarim's win rate INSTANTLY.

I am a Hecarim/Shyvana main.

I thought you were a yi main

BluePolarizer1 votes

Had to quit playing Yi.

paperbIade1 votes

{quoted}

Had to quit playing Yi.

is he in a bad spot?

PapaGreg211 votes

You should be doing a page for Sejuani buffs. Or at least a bug fix so your q doesn't knock scuttle up for 20 seconds on top of you.

WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votes

Sejuani is absolutely fine. Her clear is good (wayyy better than Hecarim's), her damage is fairly solid and her ult is still game-changing.

Can't say I've noticed the scuttle bug. CCs are longer on scuttle by design. Why would it hurt for it to be CC'd longer anyway?

PapaGreg211 votes

Sejuani is the easiest champion in the game to counter jungle. Her damage is BAD. Her ultimate is a worse version of amumu's, who also has a better initiate. There is really no reason to play Sejuani over Amumu and I used to love Sejuani. The scuttle crab gets knocked up and stays up in the air stuck on top of your model often when you q it. You can't damage it up there and things get real glitchy and you waste time.

WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votes

Never had an issue where I can't damage scuttle. I Q it, it gets knocked up, I damage it whilst it's in the air. Just went into a custom and verified the same thing.

Sejuani's ult is not outclassed by Amumu's. Sejuani's ult can be used as an effective disengage, whilst Amumu's cannot. Amumu's interrupts spell casting but does not prevent it. Sejuani's does.

I don't feel like Sejuani's damage is bad either. It definitely falls off really hard but the amount of CC you have is where your late-game comes from. (Sej maxing WEQ, Amumu maxing EWQ) All calcs are over 4 seconds, since that is the time Sejuani's full W takes, presuming burst goes off instantly Level 3: Sejuani: 200 + 4% (+3% per 100) Target HP + 12% Your HP + 150% AP Amumu: 187 + 4% (+4% per 100) Target HP + 120% AP

Level 9: Sejuani: 470 + 6% (+3% per 100) Target HP + 12% Your HP + 230% AP Amumu: 437 + 4% (+4% per 100) Target HP + 200% AP

Level 18: Sejuani: 950 + 6% (+3% per 100) Target HP + 12% Your HP + 230% AP Amumu: 901 + 12% (+4% per 100) Target HP + 200% AP

Amumu's passive allows him to shred the MR of his opponents, yes, but that is the only advantage he has in a duel with Sejuani. Sejuani does more damage over the 4 second period where she is "active", and whilst Amumu does theoretically have better DPS, Sejuani can stick to people for longer due to the slow on her E.

So yes, as long as you ignore disengage, doing more damage, being more effective against squishy targets, having more CC, a better match up against casters and being harder to kill, Sejuani is completely outclassed by Amumu. I completely agree.

Amumu also has a very similar clear to Sejuani, meaning he's no less easy to counter jungle but has much greater mana gating. He's less reliable, since if he misses his Q he's basically useless, whereas Sejuani's Q should still get her close enough to at least hit her ult. She can engage from a greater distance too.

But no, Amumu completely outclasses Sejuani.

PapaGreg211 votes

How can Sejuani's damage fall off hard when it is not strong in the first place? This isn't exactly Pantheon we are talking about.

Amumu has a better ganking kit and his ult is more reliable and covers a bigger area. You literally can't mess up an Amumu ult if you are standing by the enemy team. Sejuani's ultimate is fairly easy to miss or can be blocked by a front line tank. The damage from both is crummy and they both tank similarly well. So if you want a better ganking jungler you take Amumu and if you want a better teamfight champ you take Amumu. I appreciate the math you did on their kits to show the strength of Sejuani's stats but in reality her kit is worse which trumps the minor difference in stats. I enjoy playing Sejuani more than Amumu but I am pretty confident she is worse.

Having played Sejuani for years and seeing this bug happen fairly often, I am not going to throw it out that it never happens because you had a good custom game with her.

Calabok1 votes

Heca is banned a lot. This tells me that he is in a good position and needs no buffs

WTBeGirl100EUhr1 votes

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