Why do people complain when a Diver can kill a Squishy?

TehNACHO·Dec 14, 2017·33 votes·2,897 views

Or an Assassin, or a Burst mage, or a Juggernaut, or an Engage Tank

I find it so odd when people complain "WOW, this champion's entire job is to start fights or burst people down or be a threat to squishies in general. HOW DARE THEY kill me so quickly while I play a squishy Mage or ADC?!"

I mean I totally understand that a lot of hyperaggressive champions are popular right now, especially with it being preseason and preseason tends to promote all offense comps and bad defense or balance comps where typical carries thrive. But consider that when everybody's playing the latest wheel of cheese and nobody wants to slow down and play good peelers or disengage or anything, of course fights are going to feel fast and squishies are going to explode easily. I mean, I'm pretty sure I remember that being a squishy champion by definition means that you tend to die really quickly. It really shouldn't be that odd then, that when champions whose entire jobs are to threaten squishy champions are popular, that fights tend to snowball and end very quickly for one or both sides.

Off note, callback to a thread I made 2 years ago. Even in the "good ol days" we were doing this shit.

94 Comments

Athenes LuluDec 14, 201726 votes

We don't have an issue with any of them being able to kill a squishy.

What we do have an issue with is tanks (and sometimes non tanks) building nothing but tank items and still able to 100-0 squishies.

RalanrDec 14, 201716 votes

Compared to assassins or fighters, tanks kill squishies much slower.

Iffy JarlDec 14, 20178 votes

Have you played Malphite recently?

Sire HippingtonDec 15, 20175 votes

if Malph 100-0 you, he either went ap rather than tank and is squshy, or he was very far ahead.

Iota ThetaDec 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iffy Jarl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BAN5PEIa,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2017-12-14T22:53:58.531+0000)

Have you played recently?

His AP build has always done that. His tank build doesn’t do nearly as much damage, especially if he isn’t maxing W

Iffy JarlDec 17, 20171 votes

obviously his ap build does more damage but he has no problems assassinating an adc with a full tank build

Iota ThetaDec 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iffy Jarl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BAN5PEIa,comment-id=00010001000000020000,timestamp=2017-12-17T22:24:41.561+0000)

obviously his ap build does more damage but he has no problems assassinating an adc with a full tank build

Well, he really the only tank with hyper armor scaling, from an older time when the base damages were high and flat (similar in a sense to Cho)

Not to mention now ADC builds are item 3094 item 3031 item 3087 item 3006 and two other items that aren’t related to survival (like GA, Mercurial, Maw) or tank busting (Last Whisper items)

Succubús GFDec 14, 20173 votes

idk volibear killed me a lot faster than leblanc did >.>

TehNACHODec 15, 20173 votes

More of a Juggernaut than a Tank*

Flawless FetusDec 15, 20171 votes

You're right, but isn't voli being able to build 4/5 tank and kill squishies faster than lb dumb?

RalanrDec 15, 201710 votes

No that’s how Juggernauts work.

Squishies are squishy.

VexingRavenDec 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

No that’s how Juggernauts work.

Squishies are squishy.

I'd argue that juggernauts are just bad design and that doing tons of damage and being tanky is bad. "Squishes are squishy" isn't really an excuse when you can pick juggernauts and do both.

RalanrDec 15, 20177 votes

Their weaknesses more than make up for it and they cannot reach ADC damage.

DragonSheaDec 15, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Their weaknesses more than make up for it and they cannot reach ADC damage.

Indeed. Being a jug main myself I can tell that it's all about patient and punishing mistakes, a jugg can't make engages but they can still follow up and when that happens they will become motherfucking scary. Funny enough, juggs are the reverse of ADC's in that they rely on a tank and support to back them up while they layeth the smackdown, they just trade range for durability and baseline sustain.

AzadetheDec 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Their weaknesses more than make up for it and they cannot reach ADC damage.

I'd love to know what you think a Zed with a Mercurial Scimitar's "Weakness" is.

Kha's only weakness is that the further his team pushes into your base, the less he can use Isolation, at which point you have a chance to gang up and kill him, and sometimes counterpush after. If a Kha is played properly, he has almost 0 counterplay, especially now with Zombie wards and ways to control vision with Duskblade. All he has to do is feed off the other jungler, wait for gaps in minions on top lane, and mid lane. The only thing stopping him from doing this every game, is the player starting out trying him doesn't know that a level 2 invade = a 20 kill game. He has a 62% win rate among people who main him, #1 in kills and # 35 in deaths.

I think when a champ's primary weakness is when the opponent loses their base, it shuts down your passive, there's a problem with that champ.

Why is Riot so hesitant to rework Duskblade or give it a cooldown? When a champ can use it 2-3 times in 1 fight, that's just insane. When it can clear 20 wards in 1 game for 30g each, that's insane. There's no mage option to easily "clear wards". There's no tank option. Only champs who already 1 hit and have insane mobility.

RalanrDec 15, 20174 votes

I’d love to know where you got assassins from my comment about juggernauts.

LankPantsDec 15, 20178 votes

It's almost like the vast majority of squishy champs have a huge strength that Volibear doesn't in their long range and those that don't have masses of mobility to make up for it.

Flawless FetusDec 15, 20172 votes

Meh. Juggernauts should kill squishies, no doubt. Them doing it faster than assassins is silly, though. At least imo. Mundo/Voli assassinate faster than Zed and Leblanc... that's not weird to you? lol.

RalanrDec 15, 20174 votes

I have never seen a Mundo kill faster than a Zed of equal fed status.

It’s fairly improbable for a DPS champion without crit to outburst a a burst champion.

Z3SleeperDec 15, 20171 votes

No, he builds literally nothing but tank and does that. The difference is how disgustingly hard it is for him to actually get close enough to do it.

Sire HippingtonDec 15, 20174 votes

building tank(y) and beeing a tank are two differnt things thoguh

Z3SleeperDec 16, 20171 votes

I... I never said he was...

He's definitely not a tank.

The Yetii RiderDec 15, 20174 votes

If champions who build durability can't kill the champions who don't build durability, what is the point of durability?

HeeroTXDec 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BAN5PEIa,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2017-12-15T06:04:05.593+0000)

If champions who build durability can't kill the champions who don't build durability, what is the point of durability?

This is a stupid question. Put a strong guy with a billy club together with a weak guy with a gun against 2 weak guys with guns. Who wins? Assuming they don't start right on top of each other, the 2 guys with guns because strong guy ain't ever gonna be a factor. Put a guy with a bulletproof riot shield with a guy with a gun against 2 guns, NOW the gun+shield combo should win because the shield can soak a bunch of attacks without any real risk. Put a guy with a sword (but no armor) against a guy with armor (but no sword). The guy with the sword should win because the armored guy isn't likely to hurt the swordsman and even though he can soak, EVENTUALLY the sword will probably get through the armor. Take the sword v armor guys, but give each one an ally with a gun. If the armor is bulletproof NOW the sword guy will lose because the GUNMAN will take him out before he can do anything.

This is why solo-Q is pathetic and Riot just needs to make a "deathmatch" mode, because too many people refuse to be the shield guy because "it's boring". I an only assume the damage inflation is largely because every feels they need to play the "carry".

The Yetii RiderDec 15, 20173 votes

"Give each guy one ally with a gun".

We don't get that, always. We can't control our allies with guns. For one thing, top laners like to play tanks occasionally. They have no allies. They are sitting on an island. If they have a shield and the other guy has a sword, then you get fucked because your shield will eventually break.

Also, something your metaphor fails to take into account is that the shield guy is having his shield whittled down slowly, while the sword and gun both regain health rapidly while in combat. Durability needs some way of prevailing because you can't ever win an extended fight against someone who has lifesteal. In combat sustain for tanks is really bad.

And more importantly, the guys with shields aren't the only ones building durability. The guys with swords HAVE to build durability, so they can survive reaching the guys with guns. So you have champions like Darius, Jarvan, Renekton, Irelia who build tons of durability and only a little damage. They should still be able to kill squishies.

But of course, the major thing is that if I am a good tank and my ally is a shit carry, I should still be able to win the game. It might not be easy, it shouldn't be easy, but my victory should not be entirely reliant on my glass cannon teammate. I don't think tanks should have burst damage (and most of them don't). But I do think tanks should be able to kill bad carries if they catch them out.

HeeroTXDec 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BAN5PEIa,comment-id=0001000200010000,timestamp=2017-12-15T20:17:33.356+0000)

If they have a shield and the other guy has a sword, then you get fucked because your shield will eventually break.

Also, something your metaphor fails to take into account is that the shield guy is having his shield whittled down slowly, while the sword and gun both regain health rapidly while in combat. Durability needs some way of prevailing because you can't ever win an extended fight against someone who has lifesteal. In combat sustain for tanks is really bad.

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BAN5PEIa,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2017-12-15T06:04:05.593+0000)

If champions who build durability can't kill the champions who don't build durability, what is the point of durability?

The POINT of durability is to survive longer than without. The POINT is that if you can "soak" you can keep someone from killing YOUR damage (a DIFFERENT champion than yourself) while your damage (again, someone ELSE) is killing THEM. This is how STRATEGY and TACTICS work. Your team has more "durability" then you last longer in a fight. But not enough damage? Then it doesn't matter because they kill you before you can kill them. The whole POINT of the META is finding the correct BALANCE of damage and durability. If a single champ can roll everyone because they're really durable AND have heavy damage, then that champ is busted.

INDIVIDUALLY, durability is just flat less "valuable" than damage, but "collectively" it's better to have more overall durability than the other side. Consider: Champ A: 80 damage/ 20 durability Champ B: 50 damage / 50 durability

If they trade it's likely even, or "who shoots first" because either has enough damage to outdo the durability.

Champ C: 20 damage / 80 durability Champ D: 50 damage / 50 durability

In a trade, Champ D should win the majority of the time. If they trade even, D will win in 2 hits whereas C needs 3. Durability is only better than damage if your ability to endure is stronger than my ability to inflict AND your ability to inflict is stronger than MY ability to endure. (ie. you can kill me FASTER than I can kill you) I agree that TANKS (durability) can't beat someone with strong in combat sustain (lifesteal) and they SHOULDN'T. A tank 1-on-1 with a sustained dmg champ SHOULD die (assuming relatively even), that is (supposed to be) their DIRECT counter. Durability should lose to DPS, DPS should lose to BURST, and Burst should lose to Durability.

The problem is that mobility spam has made burst ridiculous, so rather than re-figure that, Riot has converted DPS into slightly slower burst to keep things "entertaining". So instead of: Tank+Mage+DPS foundation, we now have: AP Burst+AD Burst+MoveLimit standard.

The Yetii RiderDec 16, 20171 votes

You're missing the point of my argument. Divers, juggernauts and skirmishers need durability to make up for the fact that they do not have range. For that reason, their kits must include more damage because they can afford to build less damage. This is not so much because of mobility as it is that there is absolutely no punishment mechanisms available for players in regards to kiting. We can't make kiting more difficult for ranged champions, so Riot has to figure the time it takes to get in range as part of the time it takes to kill an enemy champion.

This FEELS like burst to squishy players, because they are only counting the amount of time that a person is actually damaging them as the time it takes to kill them. They are failing to take into account the six to seven seconds that it took the melee character to find a good flanking position, get past the support, and chase the carry through Flash. This has less to do with mobility creep than it does to do with range in general.

All in all, tanks aren't bursting people down. That is just not happening. There are plenty of powerful divers and juggernauts who build a lot of durability while bursting people down, but tanks like Sejuani, Nunu, Nautilus and Gragas are not bursting. They are still tanking.

Sire HippingtonDec 15, 20173 votes

The main issue is that overall damage(and peel) is so high that you either 100-0 a ranged squishy, or you don't kill them at all most of the time. In the curent state of the game, this means either the diver7tank/assasin feels rather usless, or they feel overbearing for their victims no real middleground.

HalcyonDwellerDec 15, 20179 votes

People have expectations for how things will play out. When those expectations are violated and they are caught by surprise, most people's reaction will be indignation as they attempt to reconcile the fact (that they just got wrecked) with their expectation (that they would not just get wrecked).

Pride and ego simply compound this problem because people don't want to accept blame or be embarrassed in front of their teammates or friends.

Additionally, this only gets worse if they are expecting you or somebody else on the team to flame them. People don't want to get flamed, so when they have something bad happen they immediately feel the urge to make excuses to avoid blame.

DragonSheaDec 15, 20179 votes

Those that need to complain about it need to shut the fuck up. They are squishy for a damn good reason and that is for the sake of balance. Unlike more durable champs that can afford to get into the thick of battle, they need to stay safe. Having such an attitude just reinforces the whole ADC's "OP or nothing attitude" All Damage dealers have strengths and weakness so being unable to accept the inherent weaknesses just means anyone playing them believe their clase has to be OP and nothing else.

Juggs have kiting as their weakness.

Divers have a lack of disengage.

Assassins have CC to worry about.

Skirmisher can't survive getting dogpiled AKA Focused.

ADC's are the most frail and have to be careful of anyone that can get to them quickly.

GrReaper96Dec 15, 20175 votes

Good points but saying assasins have CC to worry about it not really a strong point, since thats pretty much something all champions worry about. You could say assassins are equally as squishy and can only focus 1 target

DragonSheaDec 15, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Good points but saying assasins have CC to worry about it not really a strong point, since thats pretty much something all champions worry about. You could say assassins are equally as squishy and can only focus 1 target

Good point. I should have said that assassins have to execute their combo right and then get out fast or risk dying or not killing their target as they are also frail.

Z3SleeperDec 15, 20172 votes

Death is the strongest CC.

flibitydooDec 15, 20172 votes

as a tank player getting cc'd is the least of my concerns you naturally get tenacity everywhere and even if you get stunned or cc'd, that's a good thing because it means my friend lucian here didn't and he's the one who can actually kill you. and there's also the point that even if I do get stunned, I'm not dying because of that stun, and even if I wasn't stunned I wouldn't be contributing much anyways beyond me casting my own cc.

JackMcSnipeyzDec 15, 20176 votes

Divers usually build tanky with only 1-2 damage items, and still burst as fast as assassins because of high base damage or certien items (duskblade). Yea fine when assassins kill me im annoyed but usually i feel like next time i can do something. When a tanky j4 with duskblade knocks ups my entire team to dash to me then ults basic attack me and im dead - AND IS STILL healthy enough to be a tanky threat, thats when i feel i cant do anything, someome is gonna die to this guy no matter what unless HE screws up.

I dont see anyone complain about burst mages, maybe when one of them is over tuned, and engage tanks shouldnt be able to solo kill squishies with the amount of CC and durability most of them have.

That's my prespective tho, the real answer is - nobody likes to be killed and countered. Adc and mages hate assassins, juggernauts hate tanks and ADC, assassins hate juggernaut and tanks. All classes have stronger and weaker picks, all classes have counters and champions they counter.

PennsDec 14, 20174 votes

https://i.gyazo.com/66ea3569642a94e2159177f3b7598990.mp4 hehe

TehNACHODec 14, 20176 votes

Oh come on, that's way too easy.

Jax is level 15. Already has a Ravenous Hydra and I can't imagine he doesn't also have Trinity Force or at least Sheen. That triple reset he does will absolutely crush squishies, since you know, they die quickly.

Nobody is stopping him. I see a Renekton there chasing after 2 other squishies. And I also assume that's a dead Singed on the ground. The team isn't designed to stop Jax. I wouldn't be surprised that, should he have survived his laning phase with Renekton which he more than apparently did, he'd still be a GIGANTIC threat to enemy carries. Caitlyn should have turned around and ran the moment Jax turned around. Instead, she's still walking forward by the time Jax is already on top of her.

Not to mention Jax's entire motif is that of a 1v1 king especially against the likes of Auto Attackers. Ignoring Renekton who didn't do anything anyway, Caitlyn was at a disadvantage just by factor that he's alive?

PennsDec 14, 20177 votes

https://i.imgflip.com/21399e.jpg hehe

TehNACHODec 14, 20173 votes

Pfft.

Also talked about that before too. Tl;dr, Assassins should be more like Kha'Zix than LeBlanc.

VexingRavenDec 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Pfft.

Also talked about that before too. Tl;dr, Assassins should be more like Kha'Zix than LeBlanc.

What does that mean? Kha'Zix has a ton of burst.

TehNACHODec 15, 20171 votes

Kha'Zix's burst is gated by the opponent misplaying, something that as an Assassin, is something he should be able to punish freely in that scenario.

LeBlanc's burst is gated by time. Mash buttons and try to gib someone as fast as possible, and you actually cut your own firepower.

What I mean is that more Assassins should be conditional, rather than timed. Or if you are going to delay their power, do it in interesting ways like the almost literal daggerstorm that is Katarina if she can get enough daggers out, rather than a literal timer.

This has to do with the Assassin rework and some of its goals. One of the big goals was reducing the upfront "fuck you" damage that Assassins had. While I'm sure everyone can understand the sentiment entirely, the way they did it with Leblanc especially was just in bad taste in that she has a very literal timer on her Burst, and many other Assassins got more subtle changes that also delayed their power, rather than make them powerful in very specific situations.

ChaddyFantomeDec 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Kha'Zix's burst is gated by the opponent misplaying, something that as an Assassin, is something he should be able to punish freely in that scenario.

LeBlanc's burst is gated by time. Mash buttons and try to gib someone as fast as possible, and you actually cut your own firepower.

What I mean is that more Assassins should be conditional, rather than timed. Or if you are going to delay their power, do it in interesting ways like the almost literal daggerstorm that is Katarina if she can get enough daggers out, rather than a literal timer.

This has to do with the Assassin rework and some of its goals. One of the big goals was reducing the upfront "fuck you" damage that Assassins had. While I'm sure everyone can understand the sentiment entirely, the way they did it with Leblanc especially was just in bad taste in that she has a very literal timer on her Burst, and many other Assassins got more subtle changes that also delayed their power, rather than make them powerful in very specific situations.

see, the difference is, when KhaZix wants to escape, he has to either burn his ult, or successfully get a kill for the reset on E.

When Talon wants to escape, he has to try to get to a wall he hasnt already used fast enough in an attempt to make distance, or burn his ultimate. Sometimes both.

When Rengar wants to escape, he has to just run , and waste his ferocity on his empowered W and hope for the best.

When Shaco wants to escape, he has to mindgame his opponant with either carefully preplaced boxes and his Ulti clone long enough for his Q to come back off cooldown.

But when Leblanc wants to escape, shw just has to press W to pop back to safety.

Not only is her W generally a better and more potent mobility spell than most every assassins in the game, but also being a mage hybrid, she has a lot more safety, range and CC etc. So she pays for ot with an actual timer.

At least when Zed does it, its all or nothing since he gets 1 shot due to ot being tied to his Ultimate.

Leblanc can essentially use her burst combo for poking, and then pop back every time, on a low cd....twice, since her R copies...

And i say this as someone who thoroughly enjoys Leblanc as a champion and want to see her get back to a good state.

TehNACHODec 16, 20171 votes

Can't help but feel like this is an argument for a different topic altogether (^ ^')

ChaddyFantomeDec 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Can't help but feel like this is an argument for a different topic altogether (^ ^')

in what regard?

ModWulf HelhammerDec 14, 20173 votes

Diver, Or an Assassin, or a Burst mage, or a Juggernaut, or an_** Engage Tank**_?

One of these things is not like the others.

TehNACHODec 14, 20172 votes

Fair, still my belief that when a Rammus or Malphite wants to sit on you though, you're in trouble if your champion isn't specifically equipped to deal with them.

LankPantsDec 15, 20174 votes

My belief is that if any melee sits on you as a ranged champ you should be in a lot of trouble, you've failed to utilise one of your key strengths at that point.

DragonSheaDec 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

My belief is that if any melee sits on you as a ranged champ you should be in a lot of trouble, you've failed to utilise one of your key strengths at that point.

'cept for Urgot

Blue Moon WolfDec 14, 20172 votes

I definitely don't have a problem with that as its even been stated by Riot that they are anti-carries and made to kill squishies. I only have an issue with how they work right now, where they are mostly "Assassins with no escape tool", blowing up the Squishy in a burst then having to try to run for it before dying. But even that seems to be making it's way out as Riot looks to be moving toward making Divers Sustain damage dealers that are able to rip through squishes, making them in Riots own words "be a real kill threat if left unchecked". So really I'm not bothered at all. I know Riot has been doing good with Diver updates (excluding Camille ) and I trust them to keep doing good work as they get more Divers updated to current standards.

ShablagooDec 15, 20172 votes

I'm going to be perfectly honest here I am confused about it too in a way. First off some tanks do have problems like perma cc till you die is literally the same as a prerework assassins killing you with no reaction, you can't really do anything to stop the dmg which makes it seem unfair. Something that comes to mind is a mao vs most top laners rn no real reaction against him and heals most of the trade back up. However at the same time, this does not mean that tanks or jugg's should have absolutely no base dmg, their job is not to just sit their an only soak up dmg or else they would be no use top lane. Another thing that needs to be said about adc's specifically, is the fact that them dying to anything is a consequent to them completely buying full dmg rather then investing in any real defense item. They complain about Syndra oneshotting them yet build no mr against her when she has item 3135 item 3020 item 3151 , then say that he oneshot is completely unfair. Same thing with any other class complaining.

People need to understand that if you have built pure dmg you will die fast if you dont play careful, you can't expect to deal so much dmg while being tanky at the same time. And to ppl saying that tanks do it, no they dont, build one magic resist item against a mao or one resistence item to counter their specific dmg and you see that they deal next to no dmg anymore. They need decent base dmg to lane top. Just because they are tanks doesnt mean they deal no dmg.