Y'Know what's great about Heroes of the Storm?

InsaneSamurai·Jun 20, 2015·2 votes·1,125 views

One champ never gets so fed that they can take over the entire game.

Y'know what's really neat about that? It makes it remain a team game.

38 Comments

BemaponJun 20, 20158 votes

Y'know whats great about league? Its a team game that requires individual skill as well.

Meep ManJun 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Y'know whats great about league? Its a team game that requires individual skill as well.

You guys are making yourself sound like the exact fan-base you, nearly, all despise (Dota 2) since the reason they hate LoL is that its more casual than Dota 2.

BemaponJun 20, 20152 votes

Well I also play Dota 2, but my point was that in my personal opinion HoS requires less individual skill AND less teamwork you can ride on the back of your team without actually having to do too much. It just feels too simple for me. I enjoy playing it occasionally but it does not offer as much of a challenge as I am looking for.

Variks the LoyalJun 21, 20155 votes

Why can't both games be good for different reasons?

Why does one have to suck and one not? People are weird <_>

InsaneSamuraiJun 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Why can't both games be good for different reasons?

Why does one have to suck and one not? People are weird <_>

Thumbs up, good sir :)

Truly PridefulJun 21, 20153 votes

Exactly this. I play this, HotS, and used to play Dota. They're all great for different reasons. People just can't accept that several games from a genre can all be good at the same time.

ChargeItDownMidJun 20, 20154 votes

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InsaneSamuraiJun 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Funny thing is that it requires less individual skill and less teamwork than either dota or league. It is like moving from chess to tic-tac-toe.

Have you actually played it? Team work is more important since no one guy ever gets so fed that he can do whatever he wants.

ChargeItDownMidJun 21, 20151 votes

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InsaneSamuraiJun 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I have played it. Team work is more important in league and dota because there are more factors to control. In hots, teams only have to focus on objective control and soaking exp. In league and dota, teams have to coordinate objective control, level distribution, and farm distribution. On top of that, getting a player "so fed that he can do whatever he wants" against a good team takes far more teamwork than anything in hots.

Also, there is a difference between requiring 5 competent players and requiring teamwork. Hots requires all 5 players on a team to follow a formulaic movement pattern and be at objectives at the right time. However, it does not require nearly as much coordination between team members as a game like league or dota because teams do not have to balance resource distribution on top of objectives.

Did you really just say getting a guy who goes mid first time with someone against a LB, feeds her repeatedly, calls no MIAs, and doesn't ward requires alot of opposing team teamwork?

No, I know you didnt. However, that's all it takes to get one of those champs that fed.

Balancing resource distribution amongst random players in this game generally goes like this: "I do more dmg so if you can't sneak the minions in between my 3 aoe skills you just suck". So, I'm not really a big fan of that. Maybe if your average player gave a damn about anyone else on the team that would matter more here, but that is rarely the case.

Removing resource distribution makes the game more team oriented in that fashion. You might disagree, which is fine, but you have to at least admit that people don't fight with each other over kills or farm in that game, and that is quite refreshing.

ChargeItDownMidJun 21, 20151 votes

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InsaneSamuraiJun 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No one fights over kills at high mmr in league or dota either. Removing resource distribution makes the game less team oriented because it is one less thing for a team to cooridinate. Remember, it takes a good gameplan from multiple people to get someone fed. No competent team is just going to let one player solo carry by themselves. Hell, even faker can't solo carry his team to worlds every year.

No, they don't, and generally the huge snowball factor also is not an issue because people know how to play safe or trade lanes. That's my point. If they're gonna balance the game around high elo and pro play, then why even create a champ like that since it's most likely not going to work out at that level?

ChargeItDownMidJun 22, 20151 votes

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InsaneSamuraiJun 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because champions that require snowballing can still work at high level, they just require teamwork to pull off. Lategame champions like kog are still picked at the highest level because teams can plan around it. This is a strategic dimension which heroes of the storm is lacking and the reason why it ultimately requires less teamwork to play than a game like dota or league.

They do, but the vast majority of the player base is not playing at even close to that level. When this happens in your average game, its the result of someone raging, not understanding their opponent, trolling, or being a new player erroneously thrown up against an experienced Kat main(or all of the above).

When someone gets fed in high level play, they have a small lead and the team is protecting them and encouraging that lead. When someone gets fed in your standard game of random players, however, it's almost always just because one person refuses to play safe, trade, or roam, and continues to stubbornly feed that person(or perhaps the other people also refuse to help, which happens plenty). That or when the enemy jungler goes into full on carrion vulture mode, notices that a new player is on the enemy team, and camps his lane into oblivion snowballing 2 people. That one I guess is matchmaking, but still, that's not how this game was designed.

Nemesis Force XJun 20, 20152 votes

Go play that shit game HoS then instead of LoL. What makes LoL so great is that skilled players can have a big impact, only noobs and garbage players dislike this, go play casual kiddy game HoS.

Stars ShaperJun 20, 20151 votes

Actually the Team result is decided by the weakest link. No pro player can fight an enemy team fed by a single idiot who keeps chasing/dive 1vs3+/etc.

LegacyDAPJun 20, 20152 votes

I never thought I'd say this, but HotS is too team based. It's really fucking annoying.

Penguin EclipseJun 20, 20151 votes

You know what's not great about Heroes of the Storm? Everything else.

RaptameiJun 20, 20151 votes

And matchmaking is so poor that you can have 300 games and get several total newbies who don't even know what a tribute is.

Byakuya KuchikiJun 20, 20151 votes

yea except instead of the 1 person getting fed their whole team gets fed YAY :^)

InsaneSamuraiJun 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

yea except instead of the 1 person getting fed their whole team gets fed YAY :^)

You think matchmaking is any better here? I've played this for 3 years and it still has some of the worst matchmaking I have ever seen.

InsaneSamuraiJun 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

yea except instead of the 1 person getting fed their whole team gets fed YAY :^)

Evenly divided, yeah. So when that solo laner gets 2 kills up he won't be wiping everyone else on your team in seconds. Oh right, you people like that "gameplay". Carry on then.

thinking manJun 21, 20151 votes

yeah but what sucks about the game is shit like jaina exists and is allowed to be op

InsaneSamuraiJun 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Phane Sorter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AwW1xzK7,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-06-21T03:44:49.241+0000)

yeah but what sucks about the game is shit like jaina exists and is allowed to be op

I direct you to my previous reply :)

101100111000Jun 21, 20151 votes

You know what's great about Heroes of the Storm?

They have two stealth assassins that you have almost no way of realistically seeing without tossing random skillshots into the air and hoping the damage bring them out of stealth for one second if they're there.

And they can always nuke your squishies from orbit.

Let's not forget one's ranged, and the other has their own personal AoE Zhonyas that also affects people that walk into it.

InsaneSamuraiJun 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You know what's great about Heroes of the Storm?

They have two stealth assassins that you have almost no way of realistically seeing without tossing random skillshots into the air and hoping the damage bring them out of stealth for one second if they're there.

And they can always nuke your squishies from orbit.

Let's not forget one's ranged, and the other has their own personal AoE Zhonyas that also affects people that walk into it.

I never said it's balanced. I said it's great that one snowbally champ can't take over the entire game.

101100111000Jun 21, 20151 votes

Except those very same stealth assassins drastically change the landscape of the game on their own. You can't even stay out at half health for anything because you're liable to get popped in an instant from something you can't even see. 100% of your structures don't allow you any means of seeing them either, so they can roam all the way into your little forts and you would never notice.

I've frequently lost entire matches because our squishies got shat on by something they couldn't even see coming, and the rest of our team would never be able to deal with them in time because we had absolutely no way of intercepting them. It's like taking Shaco, giving him a super-powered version of Evelynn's stealth, and making all of his attacks out of stealth deal 200% extra damage.

InsaneSamuraiJun 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Except those very same stealth assassins drastically change the landscape of the game on their own. You can't even stay out at half health for anything because you're liable to get popped in an instant from something you can't even see. 100% of your structures don't allow you any means of seeing them either, so they can roam all the way into your little forts and you would never notice.

I've frequently lost entire matches because our squishies got shat on by something they couldn't even see coming, and the rest of our team would never be able to deal with them in time because we had absolutely no way of intercepting them. It's like taking Shaco, giving him a super-powered version of Evelynn's stealth, and making all of his attacks out of stealth deal 200% extra damage.

You might have misunderstood. I in no way intended to vouch for their champion balance in the least. Just pointing out that a team game is more of a team game when one guy can't snowball like that.

101100111000Jun 21, 20151 votes

I literally just pointed out how an individual character, by design, can snowball an entire game.

I literally just finished playing a game with Nova. I died once. I got well over 15 kills.

Your stance of "it's more of a team game" falls apart then as well, because a singular person will effectively snowball their ENTIRE TEAM, and not just themselves, like in League.

InsaneSamuraiJun 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I literally just pointed out how an individual character, by design, can snowball an entire game.

I literally just finished playing a game with Nova. I died once. I got well over 15 kills.

Your stance of "it's more of a team game" falls apart then as well, because a singular person will effectively snowball their ENTIRE TEAM, and not just themselves, like in League.

Ok, and like I said, my point doesn't have anything to do with character balance. Even in the case you mentioned, could you just go 1v4 straight up and win because of your sheer dmg? No, I'm more than willing to bet you had to actually outplay the enemies at every turn, which is kind of the opposite of the snowballing that I am talking about. Nova is squishy as hell, and more experienced players know to look for the shimmer of a stealthed hero, so I seriously doubt that had much similarity to a Kat facerolling people.

Also, while the snowballing hero is technically contributing to his entire team, that exp is spread amongst everyone, and gold doesn't exist. This makes it so that a 1v1 lane getting 2 kills over his opponent isn't the end of the world, which is pretty neat.

101100111000Jun 21, 20151 votes

I never had to 1 v 4. Using Nova hardly requires me to think deeply about the game, because all I'm doing is finding a good place to W-Q-R a squishy, get the ult reset, and then repeat that one more time to make the game an immediate 3 v 5. I wouldn't have a problem with that if positioning as Nova wasn't so bloody easy.

And I don't see how "HotS Snowballing" is actually any different from League Snowballing. In both games, if:

A) your ally or you feed to shit

B) Your team does nothing to deal with them

Then both cases will result in a lost game. Then, if your team decides to actually DO something about the snowball:

A) In league, the advantage that single person has is cut down, and because they were snowballing, your team is further rewarded for outplay/teamplay. Meanwhile, the enemy team with the snowball will play around it and utilize it to win the game.

B) In HotS, they don't really do much. You're not given any extra reward for stopping an individual's snowball, especially since nothing really happens to set them back, and because all progression is tracked by XP, their level advantage is guaranteed. Meaning that snowball is just as strong when it respawns, and the advantage extends to 4 other people.

InsaneSamuraiJun 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I never had to 1 v 4. Using Nova hardly requires me to think deeply about the game, because all I'm doing is finding a good place to W-Q-R a squishy, get the ult reset, and then repeat that one more time to make the game an immediate 3 v 5. I wouldn't have a problem with that if positioning as Nova wasn't so bloody easy.

And I don't see how "HotS Snowballing" is actually any different from League Snowballing. In both games, if:

A) your ally or you feed to shit

B) Your team does nothing to deal with them

Then both cases will result in a lost game. Then, if your team decides to actually DO something about the snowball:

A) In league, the advantage that single person has is cut down, and because they were snowballing, your team is further rewarded for outplay/teamplay. Meanwhile, the enemy team with the snowball will play around it and utilize it to win the game.

B) In HotS, they don't really do much. You're not given any extra reward for stopping an individual's snowball, especially since nothing really happens to set them back, and because all progression is tracked by XP, their level advantage is guaranteed. Meaning that snowball is just as strong when it respawns, and the advantage extends to 4 other people.

Well, as much as you seem to want to argue, we're talking about different things and I think you know it. That Nova was never able to walk down a lane 2 shotting everyone in sight.

VicvictorwJun 21, 20151 votes

You know stealth in that game isn't _perfect _ stealth, right?

I like how they did it, actually. You are always able to see a faint shimmer where stealthed heroes are. All you have to do is hit em with a skillshot and they'll be revealed. They can't fade back into stealth if you keep hitting them, and you're exaggerating that window. Even if they do fade back you can still see that shimmer.

Nova is widely considered one of the worst heroes in the game.

101100111000Jun 21, 20151 votes

Yeah, it's not perfect stealth, but unless you have the trained eyes of a vulture, "shimmer" stealth is almost impossible to actually notice well or consistnetly, let alone actively deal with if you happen to get stuck without a good AoE or skillshot to break it.

I know it takes 3 seconds to re-stealth without channeling, but fuck me if the Nova manages to get back into stealth and runs away through my entire base, and nothing aggros her because nothing actually sees her at all.

InsaneSamuraiJun 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, it's not perfect stealth, but unless you have the trained eyes of a vulture, "shimmer" stealth is almost impossible to actually notice well or consistnetly, let alone actively deal with if you happen to get stuck without a good AoE or skillshot to break it.

I know it takes 3 seconds to re-stealth without channeling, but fuck me if the Nova manages to get back into stealth and runs away through my entire base, and nothing aggros her because nothing actually sees her at all.

It's still good, but even in my limited play I've seen people nail stealthed heroes with skillshots for a quick kill.

101100111000Jun 21, 20151 votes

I have friends out of the SC community that do this frequently, but that's primarily because they know what to look for and how to look for it. From people who have stronger and more thorough exposure to this stealth. I don't see Nova or Zeratul every game, so I can't just sit there and practice spotting slight distortions on the map while I have, say, Azmodan sitting at the other end of a lane with his hell horde.

Truly PridefulJun 21, 20151 votes

You can see both Nova and Zeratul while they're stealthed. They distort the background and after you've played for a while they become painfully obvious to see unless they get creative with brush.

In early levels they are really OP since people don't understand that they're easy to track, but in later levels they get shut down a lot once people have experience against them.