Remove Sunfire from tank jungler recommended items

Tripsauce·Mar 13, 2015·162 votes·6,941 views

I realize it only takes a few seconds to figures out the passives don't stack. But I feel its intentionally misleading to put both of them as essential items. Nice noob trap ya got there.

59 Comments

ZanzibarMar 13, 20155 votes

Have you actually tested both at the same time to see if they stack? Just played an amumu game with both and they stacked on eachother

Hellish ProphecyMar 13, 201521 votes

Actually that's the Immolate effect ramping up it's damage. It doesn't stack, sadly. Makes Sunfire a bit....useless compared to other items I can buy.

ZanzibarMar 13, 20154 votes

Showed both on the screen as applying, but maybe it was just bugged, I'll try again in another game and see if there's a difference

JevelFaithfulMar 14, 20156 votes

That's possible, I'm pretty sure they said they wouldn,t stack.

From the patch notes concerning Sunfire Cape : (link surrender@20)

 Just a very small directional change to make Sunfire Cape more focused on wave clearing for tanky dudes. There's a little less health on that build path, but you can get to your area-effect burn a little faster.
RECIPE Chain Vest + Bami's Cinder + 850 gold (2600 gold total [unchanged]) STATS Unchanged. Just so you know. NEWPASSIVE Is now UNIQUE so you know you can't stack it

Hellish ProphecyMar 14, 20151 votes

It may just show that both effects are active, but the Immolate having item you bought first will actually be in effect. I could easily be wrong.

Duke AnaxMar 14, 20152 votes

Actually no.

Whatever is stronger at the time will apply, that means at the beginning of the fight you apply flat sunfire damage, after a while you start applying ramped up cinderhulk damage.

So getting a Sunfire on top of Cinderhulk actually has some effect (removing part of the rampup) but it not enbough to choose it over the other armor/health item.

Hellish ProphecyMar 14, 20151 votes

Oh, wow. That's very interesting and I did not know that. Thank you. (not being sarcastic, I know it's common on the Boards)

Duke AnaxMar 14, 20151 votes

Spellblade stacks the same way btw, you can get the damage from Triforce to the main target and the damage from Iceborn to surrounding targets.

Killer X 12Mar 15, 20151 votes

Look at the damage its doing, and look at the items. The damage does not stack. It didn't stack on the PBE and it doesn't stack on live.

tainteddazeMar 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Its Not Ogre Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AtXKE4E8,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-03-13T23:05:05.655+0000)

Actually that's the Immolate effect ramping up it's damage. It doesn't stack, sadly. Makes Sunfire a bit....useless compared to other items I can buy.

that is the point of it it is only for junglers its pretty much a sunfire for junglers that is a good item to rush. Not all junglers will get it though just the tanky ones like shen, malphite, rammus, and so on.

SirsirMar 14, 20155 votes

THAT MADE IT TO LIVE? C'mon riot...

Meep ManMar 13, 20153 votes

Change the builds. Its simple as that.

qilAOanPfAMar 14, 20153 votes

pardon the noob question...but which passives dont stack?

Matthias9119Mar 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

pardon the noob question...but which passives dont stack?

UNIQUE passive with a name don't stack if the passives have the same name. E.g. Sheen, Triforce, Lich Bane, IBG.

UNIQUE passives without a name won't stack with themselves. So no buying 5 Warmogs and regenning ridiculous amounts of health, or multiple Black Cleavers for 100% armor shred (actually there was a bug at one point where this worked. It was... bad.)

And yes, they should probably remove Sunfire from recommended builds that include Cinderhulk.

Cale017Mar 14, 20153 votes

You could not act like a level 5 scrub and remember that unique passives don't stack. What if an Amumu or an Elise want to build Magus enchant first and a Sunfire Cape afterwards? Remember, the recommended items are not necessarily the recommended build path, they're just the items that have synergy with the champion you're playing.

mjack33Mar 14, 20152 votes

How about we just fix the recommended tab to actually recommend good things in general? It hasn't been updated in so long that it's now, essentially, but not completely, outdated.

DoomBot ShelbyMar 14, 20151 votes

Recommended tab was updated less than half a year ago.

mjack33Mar 14, 20152 votes

And it's already hilariously bad.

Doesn't recommend upgrading your trinket anywhere.

Recommends things like Rod of Ages AND Tear of the Goddess.

Has spots empty where Darkfire Grasp was removed (or it used to).

Doesn't take Hunter's Machete into account for more than half the champion pool.

Never recommends new items like Cinderhulk or Luden's Echo. Also doesn't take any item balance changes into account.

Recommends just awful items......... in general.

Rubber JesusMar 13, 20151 votes

I think there needs to be another health + armor item now as well, for when two or more AD champs get fed. After Randiun's I am left now with only Thornmail. Frozen Heart can't be purchased on manaless champs, and it also has the same passive on Randiun's.

Jungle Lux GodMar 13, 20154 votes

You can also run Ohmwrecker as a health + armor item. The stats are pretty solid (very comparable to the stats that Sunfire Cape gives), so even if you don't use the active you aren't really wasting a whole lot of gold to get it.

I've personally started trying it out a bit in patch 5.4, but I never felt like it ever matched Sunfire Cape in terms of effectiveness, but if you took it into the context of the jungle, where the Cinderhulk enchantment makes Sunfire Cape unreasonable, it is a pretty solid alternative.

Rubber JesusMar 14, 20151 votes

Example: Amumu jungle tank.

You won't build Ohmwrecker on Amumu. It is made for split pushing with the passive it has. He does not split push, his kit is horrible for split pushing and it is not worth taking up a whole item slot for stats with small numbers compared to other tank items. It only has 300 health, that's not that much compared to other tank items with health 450+. So, no Ohmwrecker. It is good on bruisers, like Jax or Yorick, or anyone who is trying to split push and has some attack speed and attack damage and can destroy turrets quickly, because of it's passive, but not on pure tanks. Sunfire cape had 450 health and 45 armor, and with the 25% bonus health increase on the jungle tank item, it makes it worth even more health. So, the numbers are just way too small to be useful much for a tank IMO. For a bruiser looking to split push it works great though.

My suggestion? They need some new tank items. They need a new armor health item, and they need a new MR/health item. Besides the 2 they have for support (Banner and Aegis) tanks only have SV and Banshee. There isn't a whole of diversity in this niche, especially since tanks need health with all the % penetration that carries build.

Jungle Lux GodMar 14, 20151 votes

OW also has 50 armor, which is 5 more than Sunfire Cape, not to mention it also has 10% cooldown reduction and conditional movement speed off of the point runner passive, which are absolutely amazing on just about any tank.

What is also worth noting is that even though Sunfire Cape has more health for Cinderhulk, the Cinderhulk passive also makes the lower health that Ohmwrecker provides less of a weakness. There is still the weakness, but at the same time the weakness isn't as prominent.

PartholonianMar 13, 20157 votes

Frozen Heart's passive actually stacks with Randuin's.

There actually is another armor/health item (btw neither item 3110 item 3075 is actually an armor/health item, since they both have 0 health): item 3056 .

I wonder if item 3083 could make a comeback with Cinderhulk. On paper the synergy seems pretty strong (even stronger if you also add item 3065 , although if all the threats are physical you probably don't want to).

Or, of course, you could build some health items and some armor items.

CrettMar 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Frozen Heart's passive actually stacks with Randuin's.

There actually is another armor/health item (btw neither is actually an armor/health item, since they both have 0 health): .

I wonder if could make a comeback with Cinderhulk. On paper the synergy seems pretty strong (even stronger if you also add , although if all the threats are physical you probably don't want to).

Or, of course, you could build some health items and some armor items.

item 3110 item 3143 item 3083 item 3725 item 3065 this build on sion is beast

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 14, 20151 votes

I don't know if they should make sunfire be like thornmail where it causes the fire thing to start... KInd of awkward when I have to tell my friend to not buy sunfire because his jungle item does the same thing.

Champion SkinMar 13, 20151 votes

You know you can buy Frozen heart on manaless champions... you get all the same combat stats... not like you are going to run out of mana anyways so not like it matters that you don't get any mana from it...

Rubber JesusMar 14, 20151 votes

But I want an item with health and armor, besides Randuin's, that I can build when I tank jungle. That is the only item I can build. There is no diversity. It is the only option for tanks like Amumu, who have no use for Ohmwrecker and who need higher stats than what it gives. There needs to be more tank items, especially ones with health. Previously, I would build the jungle item, boots, and then I had a choice: Randuin's or Sunfire. Now I don't. And if I happen to need a little bit more armor, guess what? I'm stuck building a 100 armor item when i really needed to put my gold towards 50 armor and 500 health, which would have been Sunfire.

What's so wrong with asking Riot for a new tank item? Is that so bad?

Plus, Frozen Heart has the same passive as Randuin's making is doubly bad for your manaless champs that get the two, and for me as well. There could be a better, more efficient way at itemization: having a larger item selection. Personally, I don't like having useless passives and stats, I like to utilize all my items stats.

Champion SkinMar 14, 20151 votes

Well yes some more items in general would be nice...

And no... Randuin's and Frozen Heart does NOT have the same passive... so they fully stack and work perfectly fine with one another

Frozen Heart: UNIQUE: Reduces the attack speed of nearby enemies by 15% (Unnamed unique passives work with all other passives other then the exact same one)

Randuin's Omen: UNIQUE PASSIVE – COLD STEEL: When hit by basic attacks, reduces the attacker's attack speed by 15% for 1 second. (The only two items with "Cold steel" are Randuin's omen and Warden's mail... so there is no completed item Randuin's does not stack with... other then itself)

Need Gold 4 TentMar 15, 20151 votes

Depending on how much you need the armor (5/0 yi or just in anticipation against a pantheon) you can always build components of items to fit your needs. Urgent solution to a fed adc? Finish your thornmail/FH and rush 2 ruby crystals for some hp padding (which will turn into either Aegis/Banshee's/Visage for your inevitable MR needs later) or a giant belt if you're after warmogs/randuins/sunfire and their ap isn't dangerously fed.

If your need for 1 particular resist isn't urgent (or the worst situation of all, both AP/AD are fed in which case there isn't much you can do anyway), you can buy pieces of all of them and gradually upgrade them at your own pace (e.g. cloth -> chainmail -> null mantle -> spectre's cowl -> giant belt -> finish one of the items then finish the other.

I do think Randuins + FH rush is overkill (unless you have the big bad adc situation) and will leave you extremely vulnerable to magic. One does not need to buy mixed items, because pure armor and pure hp items exist. You can even buy 1 full armor, 1 hp/armor and 2 hp/mr items and get decently mixed resists with sufficient hp. Best thing of all? The components of these items (minus giant belt) are quite small and you can get pieces of them gradually especially if the need is urgent.

Champion SkinMar 15, 20151 votes

Randuins + FH could be alright against an all AD team especially if they rely on attack speed

Hmm... So something like Fiora/Jax/Irelia top, Master Yi jungle, Yasuo mid, ADC and whatever support (Support Ashe... yeah right..)

SirsirMar 14, 20151 votes

Heart is still cost efficient without the mana component, not even counting the aura. A friend of mine builds it on Garen sometimes.

Rubber JesusMar 14, 20151 votes

Yeah, but why would you build Frozen Heart with Randuin's when they both have the same passive? Plus, sometimes you need the health too, and now this pushes towards buying two items in order to achieve this goal. There are times it's just overkill to build 170 armor , because that's how much you get with Frozen Heart/Thornmail (100 armor) and Randuin's (70 armor).

I don't think it's asking too much to ask for a new item with ~400-500 health and ~50 armor with a new passive.

ZalinthelMar 14, 20151 votes

Because they DON'T have the same passive, the two stack.

Kitsuki05Mar 13, 20151 votes

And then you read both unique passives and realize that they say different things

TonyTonyMordecaiMar 14, 20151 votes

Honestly, I know they made the passives the same to stop the super auras from occurring, but I feel like now there is confusion with new players/junglers because they might not see that the passives are the same, and they don't stack.

JevelFaithfulMar 14, 20152 votes

They have the same name thought. That's like All the sheen line has the same passive even tought they do different things. For the record. I think that LB + Glacial Gauntlet gives lb-damage on the main target and the aoe with Gauntlet-damage. Maybe they changed it when it came on the forum.

Spacesuit SpiffMar 14, 20151 votes

lmao I just built both the last couple games. good to know.

AFK PushMar 14, 20151 votes

Building both is counterproductive, because the new cinderhulk is only active while in combat which is supposed to allow tank junglers to build item 3117 with no problems whatsoever.

Tentacle LoveMar 14, 20151 votes

item 3068 Immolate 25 + 1 per champion level per second damage

item 3725 Immolate 16 +1 per champ level increasing based on time in combat up to 24 +1.5 per champion level, only activates when in combat.

I wonder if it always applies the higher of the two values.

Note that sunfire cape is always on, cinderhulk is not.

RookPusherMar 14, 20151 votes

I think I'm missing something here. What doesn't Sunfire stack with?

ULTRAF0RCEMar 14, 20152 votes

cinderhulk, the new jungle item for tanks.

Need Gold 4 TentMar 15, 20151 votes

we've come a long way now considering sunfire used to stack with itself. and now they're watching for other items stacking with it.

GloriousKaiserMar 14, 20151 votes

I bet they're going to remove it completely. Turn AoE magic damage passive into a "Jungler Item".

OniMar 14, 20151 votes

swag

RockpopsMar 14, 20151 votes

Stacking or not, this new item just feels like a superior Sunfire Cape. Sunfire Cape is really cost-inefficient now that it's been nerfed over and over again, and this new item essentially feels like a more cost efficient version top laners don't get to use because reasons.

PartholonianMar 14, 20151 votes

Specifically, the main reason is that top laners aren't systematically gold and exp starved all game, so when they get really efficient items they become unstoppable.

Also, there's one big thing stopping Cinderhulk from being a version of Sunfire: 0 Armor. They have a similar passive, but their stats are different.

MundoMar 14, 20151 votes

Sunfire + Randuins give like 150 armor + your base armor and Ninja Tabi, Im sorry but you really don't need anymore armor. Get a Warmogs and buy some MR or if really needed get a Thorn as the final Armor item. Thats 300 armor with Thorn.. you don't need any more armor.. Enemy support will chunk you now if you haven't bought MR lol.

AnnieAndLeonaBotMar 15, 20151 votes

"We want tank junglers to do well."

Then why did you remove our main source of tenacity? Malphite is currently my top jungler and this patch completely ruined him. +25% bonus health, what a joke! When I have all my items, I get a pathetic bonus of 300 health. I'd much rather have the 35% tenacity. Sunfire is also completely pointless now. You bought it for health/armor on top of randuins, do you think I care about dealing laughable area damage? Please increase sunfire health and change its passive completely, and remove the bonus health from the green enchantment and give us tenacity back. I can't even believe you thought this through. Again, removing tenacity enchantment was probably the dumbest thing to do. I buy +5 boots on Malphite and I'm not switching back to mercury treads. Having this enchantment meant that junglers had the freedom of choice instead of being forced to buy mercury, they could buy any other boots.