The issues we need to address to get Marksmen out of the Bot Lane Carry role

TehNACHO··5 votes·1,012 views

So another thread is rising up wanting champs other than typical ADCs to be locked in bot lane, and tangentially Junglers not being a necessity, so sure, let's figure out the major hurdles we have to face in order to get something other than a Marksman in bot lane.

  1. The Jungler, the Support, and Experience Because of how many stats multiply with each other in this game, it should not be a surprise when I say that gold has an exponential effect as you stack and multiply the stats you buy on top of each other. In other words, forcing two people to share gold is far less effective than focusing all that gold into a single person and the other finding a way to operate without gold.

This is the issue that creates the Jungler and the Support. The short story is that player 4 is evicted from one of the 3 lanes full of minion granting gold and instead takes advantage of the Jungle's pool of gold, whereas player 5 must now act without gold. Due to all the geographical highlights that centers around bot lane, they'll typically go there.

So why does this cause Marksmen to take over Bot Lane?

With the Support finding its home in bot, the Bot Laner will still have all the gold they want, but they'll lose the level advantage that being a solo laner grants. This creates an environment where you want champions who scale the best on items (gold) and don't need to rely on a level advantage. Normal Mages, Tanks, Supports, and Assassins thus immediately fall out as candidates for bot lane, where they scale much better on flat base stats like levels and timed power spikes than purchasing their power over time. This leaves Marksmen and Fighters, well at least some of the latter, the only viable candidates for the Bot Lane Gold Carry.

This leads to the next issue:

  1. The advantages of Ranged Champions This should be self evident but let's run through some major points. It's far easier to farm and wave clear offensively and defensively with a Ranged Champ than a melee when it comes to reaching minions without overextending. They are a significantly greater threat against towers, being able to poke you from outside the tower range and not having to commit to being so far forward if they want to damage the tower. There's a lot of innate defenses from being ranged and farther away from danger that melees can not simulate without a lot of defensive stats and abilities. So on and so forth, being ranged is just almost always better, or at least more efficient, then the alternative. Strategically speaking, between Gold based Fighters or Gold based Marksmen, the Marksmen will always be the favorable choice to take to bot.

There are other, usually more specific, issues regarding why we don't take anything other than Marksmen bot lane, but I believe that these are the most universally applicable. Any champion that we want to throw bot lane must be able to operate with gold and the power of the items they buy over their base kit and the power leveling up brings. At the same time as making this theoretical champion gold reliant and not level and thus not ability reliant, that champion must have ways built into their kit to either simulate the strengths that being a ranged Marksman brings, or find strategic niches that Marksmen don't already bring. It should be obvious at this point that most typical ways to solve one of these two problems exaggerates the issues presented by the other problem. Once a good solution is found that solves both of these problems at the same time, we may see more than just Marksmen in bot lane.

10 Comments

Fraggleroc1 votes

Also if we take anything other than Marksmen to the bot lane, someone else has to fill in the role for Sieging objectives. It usually means there needs to be another with good ranged consistent dps.

edit: i.e. Poking objectives.

67chrome1 votes

That's not much of an issue considering there's a decent pool of marksman that work as a top-lane, mid-lane, or jungler.

Woook3r1 votes

They dont get camped enough then.

67chrome1 votes

Marksman like Graves, Kindered, Corkie, and Quinn have been top-tier picks in the pro scene specifically for lanes like mid, top, and jungle.

They're also used pretty heavily in normal and ranked games at all skill levels at the moment, without a whole lot of downsides. Especially seeing as AD+Defensive itemization is unusually solid at the moment, allowing several marksman to be rather bulky without trading much in the way of damage.

And considering their mix of range and mobility: assuming marksman are any more susceptible to ganks than most is also not a safe assumption to make, as several marksman are quite capable of staying safe.

Woook3r1 votes

The last paragraph is going down a road where you have a marksman bot lane but you just dont call him a marksman. He has all the characteristics of a marksman, but you dont call him that.

Let me give my opinion. A large part of the balance of marksmen is due to the fact that they snowball so fucking hard if their items are cheep. They dont use mana for dmg. They can attack over minions, so they have a poke/harass pattern forever and they have dmg that is just basically a dot forever. Then they can also all in you if they get far enough ahead. So theres really no safety from them. If infinity edge was as cheep as morellos, you could take draven mid and FUCK EVERYONE from the 8th minute till they surrender. If you get a kill its just so stupid. So they have to have expensive items and thats just the way it is.

Now, another set of things they have done to marksmen is make them squishy as fuck and despite being the "ranged class" they have lower range on their autos, MUCH LOWER, than most abilities. Leblancs chains are 1k units long. Jax's gapclose is 900 units. Dravens auto range is 550. Basically, this makes them super weak to being camped.

If they want to walk up and deal dmg, then they will be really close and easy to gank. Further making the life of an adc difficult is the fact that your lane will push if you auto an enemy champion. My research has told me that the supports came about because Marksmen would get camped and didnt have the cc to escape. Mobility isnt always enough to escape a gank. Slows are really helpful for escapes if you have mobility too. And a stun is fucking golden. Try ganking top lane Taric. Its fucking stupid. You cant kill him, he can heal it back, and he will just stun you anyway.

Now, greater range so that you can punish the jg for coming to your lane can discourage camping. Adc's dont do that very well tho and they are very vulnerable to being camped. The support is there to deal with jungle pressure. In silver, the adc gets camped anyway because the supports dont fucking understand their job and because the other lanes dont know to push. Anyway. Thats just me bitching. I prolly dont know how to turn ganks around very well. Its prolly my biggest flaw.

So, yea the items are expensive and they need farm. They get camped so they need support. Drag is important so you want them bot. That makes camping even more of an issue and so yea supports are a thing. Also, dont think that support is just for the adc. Its just that the exp soak from supporting is mitigated by the fact that your adc is primarily gated by gold and doesnt get much from lvls. You could send a support to another lane, but they will fall behind because lvl advantage is important to the other lanes, and your adc would get zoned in a 2v1.

ArlanKels1 votes

TL;DR~ Marksman go bottom because of reasons.

Naw I'm just messing with you, I totally read it. I didn't fall asleep either!

I had a friend take Aurelion Sol bottom rather than a marksman, and a marksman(Lucian) went mid. Sol had a support, Lucian didn't, things worked out beautiful.

DeathBurst1 votes

I replied to one of your recent comments where you linked this old post. It's a bit of Necro'ing, but this is an interesting post and still relevant to the current meta, so let me answer.

  1. I mostly agree with point 1, but I'd argue that there is still a bit of room for having the Support (defined as "the guy without Gold") going somewhere else than Bot. Even if only having the traditional Bot lane and Mid swap, e.g. you have a Quin/Bard duo who can roam pretty well, and a Cassiopeia who just wants to farm. But there are probably other possibilities, like double Jungle, and I'm pretty sure given the size of the community that there would be a lot of innovation if people dared to break this specific point of meta a little more.

  2. On the other hand, I mostly disagree with point 2. If point 2 was true, there simply would be Ranged champs everywhere, and no place at all on the map where melee Fighters could live. And yet, there are plenty of melee fighters going Top, and even if they don't have fun when a lone Ranged champ go there, they still survive. And the meta is still dominated by melee champs Top. They could survive just as well Bot, and even better since they can have a Support covering their weaknesses. A proper synergy between Carry and Support would probably be more important than usual if the Carry is melee, but it's definitely possible. Actually, there are already a lot of melee champs that can go Bot right now, with a proper support, it's just that if you do that, you're left without a safe Ranged DPS, unless you coordinate with your team to have one somewhere else (which is hard outside of premades).

TehNACHO1 votes
  1. Right, I hand waved it with:

Due to all the geographical highlights that centers around bot lane, they'll typically go there.

But the support has his own series of problems he has to solve, it's worth a discussion.

One of the earliest solutions to the problem was called the Roaming support. This is pre-competitive League history right here and was the earliest evidence of League players finding smart(ish) solutions to tough problems. Centered mid, the Support effectively turned Mid Lane into the hyper carry lane and supported the side lanes if and when they had trouble, maybe even double ganking with the Jungler at the same time. There are tons of different variations to the roaming support play style, and Bard's design goals hint that Riot is still aware of this play style. I think there needs to be bigger systemic changes before it becomes truly viable, but it is there. Just a matter of that being popular enough to be considered significant.

  1. Entertainingly, you're actually on the right track to understanding the melee vs ranged problem. Sit on those thoughts a little more, you'll probably figure out exactly what I mean when I keep repeating "the smart solution" in my other post.
DeathBurst1 votes

You're a bit too vague in your 2)...

Do you mean "a melee champ designed to function 2v2", a bit like what they did for Taric, or Kalista, or Mordekaiser? A champ whose kit isn't "complete" without an ally?

I'm not convinced that's enough, after all it didn't work with Morde, and it can be very frustrating, see all Kalista mains complaining about their AS or all the Morde crying because they had to fight with only 2 spells until it was changed.

Aptest1 votes

OP,

I disagree with your point 1. I believe that ultimate late game scaling is not necessarily something you must have every game - especially if enemy team have no tanks you can go with bursty champions instead.

also levels deficiency is definitely something that hurts marksmen just as much as it hurts solos. They do depend on levels especially the key ones - 2, 6, 9 and 11.

your point 2 is ok but it is not specifically related to marksmen.

Here is my analysis of the issue:

  1. Ranged characters are needed in any good team composition.
  2. Most marksmen are unable to solo lane especially if blind picked.
  3. hyperscaling, if you do not know the opposing picks, is a necessary sacrifice.

< 1 >

The reasons you want ranged characters are two. (a) you are able to put damage on objectives without being super close to the objective and (b) you are able to put damage on focus targets in fights without dogpiling.

dogpiling on a target is potentially a huge issue because there are a lot of champions that will punish you for it. for instance brand.

< 2 >

for all the talk about ranged carries dominating top lane, most of them will just die for free once an ahri or an irelia or a riven reach their critical levels.

put a mage against them in a lane. Let the mage reach critical levels. And watch them die. again and again. Sure some of them can abuse melees. but they generally will due to a syndra or an ahri or a lux landing just ONE lucky skillshot in the lane.

< 3 >

what if they get a darius or a chogath? you will need the ultra damage in the late game. so you gotta have one.

In conclusion - the problems with bot lane are:

marksmen are necessary in every team because you can't CURRENTLY get mages to do that kind of DPS late game without throwing their burst into an absurd overdrive.

marksmen can't survive elsewhere.

Solutions:

  1. reduce overall tankyness or increase DPS of some mages such that DPS mages can be used instead of marksmen
  2. make marksmen who can solo lane or jungle.
  3. increase objective taking power of mages and tanky range characters (supports, huuraa) such that objective taking power is less necessary from marksmen.

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