Can we please just remove the Attack speed slow from Wither

Misses Old Talon·May 7, 2018·2 votes·1,148 views

Lee sin, about 3 seasons ago got his Attack speed slow removed from Cripple for being "To potent ontop of his all ready strong movement speed slow." Yet Nasus, a tank that scales damage infinitely, along with his Ulti tweak that for some ungodly reason was never removed from the game giving his Q basically a 0.5 second cool down, has a Stronger slow than Lee Sins cripple, is a point and click ranged move, and also slows your attack speed to practically its base at any point in the game. Ontop of that, Withers CD is so low, he can cast it again literally as the first wither wears off at max rank. How is this in any way, a balanced spell for a Infinite scaling tank? A nasus can be at 100 stacks 20 minutes in, but because he has wither and ulti, will still duel any Basic Attack reliant champion.

4 Comments

TheSandQratorMay 7, 20181 votes

Oh BOY here we go this is ticking all of the boxes for someone who just lost to a Nasus as a Yasuo/Fiora/Jax or similar champion.

His infinite scaling means jack if he can't get to use it. Which he can't, without Wither. Which has to be ranged otherwise he wouldn't get to use anything but Spirit Fire against competent opponents.

Wither is a ghost of what it used to be.

Lost 100 base range.
Lost the additional 100 cast range (200 total range) during his ult.
Used to slow and cripple for the same values.

I'd really liked to have seen you react to THAT. He used to remove ADCs' capability to do damage from across a team fight. Range is an incredibly strong stat that's actually one of the few times they've hit a targeted ability that hard, range-wise.

Lee's slow and cripple both contributed to him being an absolutely insane duelist jungler, to the point where he could bully the absolute shit out of the other hunger with very little consequences. He also gets additional benefits (via his passive) for casting it, so it's a bit more than just a slow. AND it has a pretty okay AoE radius to it. Very capable of marking/slowing two people. Lee's Tempest/Cripple also have a lower base cooldown than Wither. It also does damage, unlike Wither, which is purely that slow (it's actually one of the few offensive spells that has no offensive power in its own right).

Nasus is meant to be capable of being a scaling duelist, and he needs something to deal with autoattack-based champions since the majority of duelists are those. I do agree with you about the ult though, to an extent. It feels fantastic to use and is one of the craziest on-demand spikes in power in the whole goddamned game... But it probably eats up too much of his power budget to have future changes require anything less than awkward shuffling of numbers.

Oh also you could just buy item 3111 if you really hate his slow that much. It cuts more than a second off of its duration!

Misses Old TalonMay 30, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Oh BOY here we go this is ticking all of the boxes for someone who just lost to a Nasus as a Yasuo/Fiora/Jax or similar champion.

His infinite scaling means jack if he can't get to use it. Which he can't, without Wither. Which has to be ranged otherwise he wouldn't get to use anything but Spirit Fire against competent opponents.

Wither is a ghost of what it used to be.

Lost 100 base range.

Lost the additional 100 cast range (200 total range) during his ult.

Used to slow and cripple for the same values.

I'd really liked to have seen you react to THAT. He used to remove ADCs' capability to do damage from across a team fight. Range is an incredibly strong stat that's actually one of the few times they've hit a targeted ability that hard, range-wise.

Lee's slow and cripple both contributed to him being an absolutely insane duelist jungler, to the point where he could bully the absolute shit out of the other hunger with very little consequences. He also gets additional benefits (via his passive) for casting it, so it's a bit more than just a slow. AND it has a pretty okay AoE radius to it. Very capable of marking/slowing two people. Lee's Tempest/Cripple also have a lower base cooldown than Wither. It also does damage, unlike Wither, which is purely that slow (it's actually one of the few offensive spells that has no offensive power in its own right).

Nasus is meant to be capable of being a scaling duelist, and he needs something to deal with autoattack-based champions since the majority of duelists are those. I do agree with you about the ult though, to an extent. It feels fantastic to use and is one of the craziest on-demand spikes in power in the whole goddamned game... But it probably eats up too much of his power budget to have future changes require anything less than awkward shuffling of numbers.

Oh also you could just buy if you really hate his slow that much. It cuts more than a second off of its duration!

"Just lost" LMAO. I've hated that braindead champion since season 3. Lee sin is MEANT to be a duelist, so why is it okay for a duelist to lose his dueling potential, but not a Tank with infinite scaling? Also, did I ever complain about it being a ranged spell? No. I complained its way too potent of a slow/attack speed slow, along with his ultimate giving Q a 0 second CD late game. And actually no, Mercs remove only 1.5 seconds off the duration. And even then, the cool down on it would be 1.5seconds longer than the duration. You literally get 1 second to react to it being off, thats balanced? Then I guess Silence leblanc was balanced because it allowed her to snowball, which assassins are meant to do.

TheSandQratorMay 30, 20181 votes

You've hated Nasus for that long, fine. I've hated Lee Sin for a similar amount of time just because I was so kitten sick of seeing him in games.

Splitting hairs here, but Nasus isn't a tank, but tank_y_. He's no meaningful damage mitigation/defensive steroid outside of his counterable sustain, and he's only got one crowd control ability. He's a damage threat, who builds tanky to facilitate their damage. A Juggernaut. Lee was meant to be a duelist, yes. But he was able to get to that duelist strength without really meaningful trade-offs in return, given his mobility especially way back when compared to others. And that's why he was hit; he was meant to be a duelist, but he was too good at it in pretty much all situations.

You actually did complain about Wither being a ranged move, when you were doing the Boards thing of listing most a champion's kit, embellished with a little hyperbole, and saying it's OP. Although, once again, I do agree with you that his ult change is really nice to use, but it might have too much power concentrated in it. And if any part of his kit is hit, we might have to see some fabled compensation buffs; I know that plenty people wouldn't be happy with that. His kit really hasn't aged well, it's still chunky and rough around the edges, the Spirit Fire buffs were amazing and all I had hoped for, but the ult changes were just gravy.

Also as a side point, Merc Treads cuts 1.5s off of the duration, which is correct! But there was already a 1 second window of downtime. So there's a 2.5s window of downtime now with them. I'd say that's a pretty huge jump from 1s, especially given how bursty things are these days.

When you point out the numbers of someone and whine about how strong they are, of course they're gonna seem strong. You're missing the fact that he has to get to you to hit you for those numbers. And it's supremely easy to kite him these days unless he gets the drop on someone.

So yes. I'd call him balanced. Because he's really, really weak to being kited. He has to run towards folks, since he's got no dashes and nothing like Darius' Apprehend or Yorick's wall. They've decent payoff for getting in on folks, so he should also have a fair payoff for getting in on someone. And he does. (Also a 48.7% winrate according to OP.GG, the fact that he's not brushed 50% winrate since patch 8.5, and the fact that his winrate climbs fairly proportionally with game length as his design intends, lets me feel satisfied in calling him balanced.)