@Axes Should Liandry's Torment Receive the Black Cleaver Treatment?

Teridax68··3 votes·716 views

For those who haven't yet seen the PBE notes, item 3071 is getting reworked, with a new recipe, modified stats and an improved armor shred. The biggest change here is that it no longer builds from a item 3134 , for the following reason:

The Brutalizer is out of the build path because an item with flat armor penetration and stacking percent shred (really, any percent shred or penetration) together just gives you the power to kill everyone - flat armor penetration is best at bursting squishy targets, while percent shred/pen make you better at dealing with the kinds of champions that you'll have to fight for a while to beat.

This means that an item which does both has to be pretty crappy at both jobs, because if it's ever good at either job, its user is automatically good at fighting everyone. An item which only gives one of the two can actually be good at that one thing.

With this in mind, should item 3151 receive the same treatment? Although armor and MR work differently in many respects (tanking against magic damage is intentionally more difficult, for example), there are a few issues with Liandry's common to the current Black Cleaver: in terms of stats, the item's extremely underwhelming (50 AP and 300 health on a late-game item is pretty terrible), and its flat magic penetration, which provides a massive boost against squishies (to an even greater degree than the Brutalizer, too, since a lot of champions don't gain MR per level at all), also contradicts with its DoT effect, which is especially effective against tanky opponents. Whereas the Brutalizer will only end up building into a couple of items, Liandry's is literally the only item item 3136 can build into, despite the component being better-tuned towards killing squishies. This mismatch also often creates bizarre itemization quirks, where a fed AP burst champion might build a Haunting Guise for more mid-game burst before selling it later on, or upgrade it into Liandry's Torment even against a team full of squishies (Katarina is the biggest offender). Wouldn't it be better to give Liandry's the Black Cleaver treatment, and fully optimize it into a good tank-busting item?

TL;DR: Liandry's Torment has a lot of issues similar to The Black Cleaver, in that it's a mostly underwhelming item that's not particularly well-optimized towards killing squishies or tanks, and consequently isn't that good against either. TBC's impending rework feels like an opportunity to turn Liandry's into a dedicated tank-busting item for AP champions.

13 Comments

Lost R2 votes

Liandri's Torment is supposed to be meant for champions who deal magic damage over time (Nautilus, Sejuani, Brand, Teemo, Malzahar, etc.). A burst mage doesn't benefit from it in the same way. They're dangerous regardless of the Liandri's if that's their only item and they're mopping the floor with you.

Teridax681 votes

I agree, and I think it's fine if Liandry's were still better on DoT mages than burst mages, though I think the issue with it right now is that it doesn't feel as well-optimized as it could be.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

It's not underwhelming at all on DoT mages -- Swain, Malz, Brand. It's also very strong on low-AP ratio mages like Vel'Koz and Zyra.

If you buffed it, many of those champions would probably become too strong (as it is now, all of them except for Vel have 52% or higher winrate, and Vel's isn't bad either -- 51.68%. Malz actually has a 54% winrate, and is consistently one of the top 8 most winning champions)

It's meant to be a niche pick that is good on a few champs and good against tanks. It's in a good spot already. The only change I'd suggest would be changing its 2% per second to something slightly lower but also giving it a flat damage per second (maybe scaling by champion level). It's really annoying to see it burn a low-HP enemy for 0 damage.

Teridax681 votes

I don't want to buff it specifically; rather, I think Liandry's should be optimized to be more effective against tanks, and less effective against squishies, in the same vein as the updated Black Cleaver on the PBE. Liandry's has good synergy with poke and DoT champions, but I feel it could do its job better without making those champions go overboard in terms of power.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

optimized to be more effective against tanks, and less effective against squishies

I think it largely is that already, by virtue of it being a % of current health DoT. Against a squishy or a very low enemy, the burn from Liandrys does almost nothing. You don't buy Liandry's just for the MPen. If that's what you were after, you'd get item 3020 item 3135 item 3001 and maybe item 3136 , though you wouldn't upgrade Haunting Guise until the end.

Teridax681 votes

But that's the point: the magic pen is better-tuned towards squishies, despite the item's burn passive being oriented towards tankier enemies. The fact that Haunting Guise, which is the source of the flat pen, only builds into Liandry's is also an indicator that the item needs an update in the same way as The Black Cleaver.

Reikken2 votes

Yes. Liandry's is the most awkward item in the game. It's not bad or weak, but very awkward. First post did a pretty good job of outlining why, so I'm not going to rehash the reasons. I fully support any changes to the item.

Flying Buntcake1 votes

Yes. Although the burning effect is cool, it's largely underwhelming and had terrible stats as a relatively expensive item.

aperson11 votes

The magic penetration does not contradict the %HP damage; it enhances it. If your enemy is building HP, they are more susceptible to the burn, but since they are building HP they (theoretically at least) don't have gold for MR, so the flat magic penetration improves the burn and your magic damage spells against the HP stacking target.

Additionally, there are generally more cost-efficient ways to improve your damage than 50 AP and 15 flat magic penetration for 2900g, since AP ratios are usually much higher than AD ratios.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

The magic penetration does not contradict the %HP damage; it enhances it.

True, but then so does Black Cleaver's current % armor shred and flat armor penetration (shredding percent armor means less armor to penetrate, which makes flat penetration more valuable). Flat magic penetration is also still more effective against squishies than tanks, which brings us back to the problem of tying a squishy-killing bonus to a tank-busting effect.

{quoted}

If your enemy is building HP, they are more susceptible to the burn, but since they are building HP they (theoretically at least) don't have gold for MR, so the flat magic penetration improves the burn and your spells against the HP stacking target.

Most tank-oriented MR options also tend to be tied to health (e.g. item 3102 , item 3065 , item 3190 , etc. ), so flat magic penetration isn't optimal most of the time when taking those items into consideration.

{quoted}

Additionally, there are generally more cost-efficient ways to improve your damage than 50 AP and 15 flat magic penetration for 2900g, since AP ratios are generally much higher than AD ratios.

Precisely, which is why I think Liandry's needs better optimization: it's a late-game item with poor stats and an effect that doesn't achieve what it's meant to do (damaging tanks) as well as it could. I feel it has the potential to become a much more interesting damage pick if it lost its flat penetration and shifted completely towards being a full anti-tank/poke item.

aperson11 votes

{quoted}

True, but then so does Black Cleaver's current % armor shred and flat armor penetration (shredding percent armor means less armor to penetrate, which makes flat penetration more valuable). Flat magic penetration is also still more effective against squishies than tanks, which brings us back to the problem of tying a squishy-killing bonus to a tank-busting effect.

Keep in mind that % armor shred on TBC is good against squishies and (armor-stacking) tanks alike, and the effect it enhances (flat pen) is good against squishies. Thus it's OK (but not optimal!) against (armor-stacking) tanks and really great against squishies.

Whereas Liandry's flat pen is good against squishies, but the effect it enhances (%current HP DoT) is almost exclusively good against (health-stacking) tanks because of its DoT nature. Thus it's good against (health-stacking) tanks and OK (but not optimal!) against squishies.

Most tank-oriented MR options also tend to be tied to health (e.g. item 3102 , item 3065 , item 3190 , etc. ), so flat magic penetration isn't optimal most of the time when taking those items into consideration.

And against those items, you wouldn't build Liandry's until after Void Staff at the very least.

Precisely, which is why I think Liandry's needs better optimization: it's a late-game item with poor stats and an effect that doesn't achieve what it's meant to do (damaging tanks) as well as it could. I feel it has the potential to become a much more interesting damage pick if it lost its flat penetration and shifted completely towards being a full anti-tank/poke item.

I agree that it feels a bit underwhelming currently - I've very rarely come across a situation as an AP mid where Guise -> Liandry's was clearly the item to get. Whether it's an itemization problem (people can't get health without MR) or a meta problem (people don't get health without MR) I'm not sure.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

Keep in mind that % armor shred on TBC is good against squishies and (armor-stacking) tanks alike, and the effect it enhances (flat pen) is good against squishies. Thus it's OK (but not optimal!) against (armor-stacking) tanks and really great against squishies.

I don't think % armor shred is really that good on squishies, or at least it's not intended to be, hence the rework to Black Cleaver on the PBE. Like you said, it's OK, but not optimal, which I think is a problem shared by Liandry's Torment.

Reikken1 votes

flump

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