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Why do you only care about half of the community?

GigglesO··119 votes·10,552 views

I keep trying to think that Riot wants to be an impartial community. I kept telling my friends all through season 1,2,3, and 4, that you guys kept trying to make the right changes, what was best for the game.

However, then something changed around the end of season 4 into season 5. You stopped a Lee Sin rework because a good chunk of the community said that you shouldn't, mostly pros. Then you did started doing something radically different, you changed the whole game around the idea, that Lee Sin shouldn't be nerfed. So you made his jungle harder and ect...

This is where you started to pick sides. Instead of maintaining actual healthy balance you bumped up certain nuke champions, but not others. You picked up certain tank champions, but not others.

Then came the Morde changes. Now a good chunk of morde players on the PBE are telling you that it is a garbage rework, all it does is add more issues to his already problematic game play. What are you doing about this? You are pushing through with it anyways. You make it sound like his very unreliable ghost is worth all of the negatives that you are giving him, when in reality dragon is too slow at moving and attacking to make him extremely strong, and the only ghost really worth getting is still the enemy adc. Which leads back to one of his core weaknesses, not easily being able to get a ghost.

So let me ask, what makes the Lee Sin community more valuable that you didn't go through with that rework, but you are reworking Morde? Please, for anyone reading this far, please don't just down vote and move on, I'd like an actual response.

103 Comments

Sasogwa44 votes

Playerbase.

Just like the DFG compensations: on one side you got Ahri , on the other you got Veigar Mordekaiser

--expecting downvotes from Ahri players

Keevalroy9 votes

All we wanted was a bit of damage on Ahri's abilities for compensation, and what happened was they added the random movespeed that no one, not even Ahri players wanted, buffed her damage, increased damage reliability, and made her near impossible to deal with after all was said and done. We wanted her gameplay intact, not this horseshit they manufactured out of the original Ahri that got her reworked the first time.

She was reworked because a mindless kite mage isn't healthy - Oh, I know! Let's make it even worse and say it's healthy and to her theme! The playerbase thinks a seductress that toys with and waits for people to get distracted and make a mistake so she can jump at them while they don't expect it is her core? Pffft! What do they know? Come on, think about how fast and flashy she'll look in the LCS with that movespeed guys!

RoyaiChaos2 votes

[deleted]

Retillin1 votes

But I think it is because Ahri is more popular than Veigar. One was given buffs and changed her play style. The other was nerfed to his most important spell. If Veigar was as popular as Ahri they would not have just changed Veigar and then left him to fend for himself.

RoyaiChaos1 votes

[deleted]

Retillin2 votes

It is assumption. Because neither of us (nor anyone on the boards) sits in on the balance team. But popularity DOES factor into Riot's balance decision. Else why was Lee Sin and Kass given buffs on the Worlds Patch? There are too many cases of these types of things. And too many "we'll keep an eye on it" and not following through on less popular champs.

BlkGolem2 votes

Agreed, but when I tried to go Viktor Veigar bot for the op stuns, I realized that the best cc was actually instant death of the adc every time after 8 minutes. Veig is pretty good still but Ahri...

Kochiya Sanae35 votes

the most important part is not about being wrong or right

it's about being consistent to mindset and method

riot is not

AutoreactiveCD410 votes

They had a streak of decent consistency for a while...then they threw that out. "We are aware and concerned about mobility creep" "here have Kalista". That's my best example.

Not hating on the champion or Riot, just my observation.

Dengeden2 votes

"We are aware and concerned about mobility creep"

Can you show me where you got that quote or any variations thereof please?

AutoreactiveCD41 votes

Went back and looked at a few sources. I guess bad memory and hyperbole got me on this one. My bad.

To sum it up, the concern is more that super mobile champs don't give up enough considering how powerful mobility is. Part of my statement is still true in a way. Kalista already has a fair amount of tools not considering her passive.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3850126&page=22#post41404350

Dengeden2 votes

Ah thanks! Interesting read, funny how wards and jungler/support gold were an issue back then ^^ Regarding Kalista, I really can't fault Riot for her, nobody could have predicted how strong she would be upon release. Any ADC that whose core build includes Runaan's and BT sounds hella noob doesn't it?

SouL1ess10 votes

{quoted}

Regarding Kalista, I really can't fault Riot for her, nobody could have predicted how strong she would be upon release

Are you being serious right now?

Her passive is terribly great. That should be the first sign of danger. And I would have been fine with her passive had she not been able to activate her passive with her Q. That pushes it over the edge. Her passive's weakness isn't even a weakness due to just how much open space there is on SR.

And then there are other silly things like W having ridiculous percentage maximum health damage, E refunds mana per kill, and ult being a zhonyas with mobility and conditional CC and also breaking a few kit combinations like Blitz and Tahm.

Kalista, and others like Azir, are champion kits that you can clearly tell is going to be very powerful the moment you see them.

Dengeden2 votes

Well that means your fine with the passive now, right?

And you misunderstand me, upon release, as in, when she was made purchasable, every ADC main's thoughts on Kalista were: Meh. Why? Because they were going the standard ADC build with IE (or the pre-buff BoRK rush) and (of course) that didn't work. Again, who would have thought that Runaan's would ever be a standard item on anything but Kayle? That there would be an ADC other than blue Ez with no need to build crit (especially an AA reliant one like Kalista)?

I'd like to see you try playing her without using any one of the abilities you mentioned or even suggesting alternatives. The only thing I can agree on is her %health damage because it automatically turns any Kalista lane into a poke lane, regardless of the support she has.

Ravore8 votes

To be honest i think most people knew kalista would be broken upon release with that passive of hers

kile1475 votes

Everybody predicted she'd be broken as hell. Everyone was in agreement that her passive would make her anti-fun no matter how powerful she was. She didn't even build Runaan's right away, that didn't happen until they tweaked her Rend, about one patch after she was released.

Keevalroy7 votes

Regarding Kalista, I really can't fault Riot for her,

Don't worry, I can and do.

nobody could have predicted how strong she would be upon release

  • Kalista Kalista was designed by CertainlyT.
  • PASSIVE: If Kalista and her Oathsworn ally land a basic attack against the same target within 2 seconds of each other, the target takes bonus magic damage 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20% of target's maximum health
  • If Kalista enters a movement command while winding her basic attack or Pierce, she dashes a short distance in the target direction, scaling with her boot tier.(This is FREE by the way) While dashing, her basic attack wind-up is only reduced by 0.66% per 1% bonus attack speed, rather than the standard 1%.
  • PASSIVE: While Rend is not on cooldown, Kalista's basic attacks and Pierce each leave a spear in her target for up to 4 seconds, stacking infinitely.PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+ 60% AD) SLOW: 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45%

Nope. Nobody could have predicted this.

Dengeden2 votes

To this and all the other replies I got:

Listing a champions strengths or abilities doesn't make them OP. Everyone's got their own definition of "anti-fun".

BUT - SHE - WASN'T - BROKEN. This is a fact, upon release,nobody knew how to play her, so everyone thought her passive was flashy but more or less useless.

Proelium2 votes

{quoted}

Don't worry, I can and do.

  • Kalista Kalista was designed by CertainlyT.
  • PASSIVE: If Kalista and her Oathsworn ally land a basic attack against the same target within 2 seconds of each other, the target takes bonus magic damage 12 / 14 / 16 / 18 / 20% of target's maximum health
  • If Kalista enters a movement command while winding her basic attack or Pierce, she dashes a short distance in the target direction, scaling with her boot tier.(This is FREE by the way) While dashing, her basic attack wind-up is only reduced by 0.66% per 1% bonus attack speed, rather than the standard 1%.
  • PASSIVE: While Rend is not on cooldown, Kalista's basic attacks and Pierce each leave a spear in her target for up to 4 seconds, stacking infinitely.PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 (+ 60% AD) SLOW: 25 / 30 / 35 / 40 / 45%

Nope. Nobody could have predicted this.

I think back in the day people were making jokes about mobility creep and a joke I read was "Someday in the future Riot may get stupid enough to make a champ just dash every time it auto attacks!" If that joke wasn't told... it should have been and at the very least the spirit of it was there.

Proelium2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kochiya Sanae,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=An88OrAg,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-17T04:39:16.501+0000)

the most important part is not about being wrong or right

it's about being consistent to mindset and method

riot is not

This

I have complained for about the last 2 years that Riot doesn't even follow their own rules for Champion design.

I think they value creative freedom over following the stipulations THEY set down for champions. Removing rules is lazy, not creative.

RiotRiot Scruffy11 votes

I wasn't personally involved with the lee sin changes back then (not a 'rework' really just some live design tweaking), but I can give you my opinion for what it's worth.

I actually think the community outcry then was totally legitimate and called us out on what would have been changes that would have pushed out some of the core late game functions that lee sin players actually liked and aren't unhealthy for the game. For context the changes would have made lee sin more of an attack speed dmg carry late game rather than a pick focused tank like he his now. This is the type of feedback/response that I am glad that we are doing.

There have been a few other threads with some more in depth Morde discussion, but I can repeat/bring the discussion here. We have heard the feedback on morde and are both reacting to some of it before release and planning for possible future changes if things don't turn out exactly as we hope when he goes live. The big asks I've been seeing for morde are about his solo lane viability, and we are aiming to not hurt his play there while also adding a very new and interesting option for him to play bot lane. Once morde goes live, we will be listening to the feedback from top, mid, and bot lane morde players and reacting with whatever changes are appropriate.

Some of the other comments you have about us "picking sides" or "changing the whole game around lee sin" must be a deeper level of conspiracy than what we even know ourselves. The strategy the balance/systems team has been taking on creating/improving jungle diversity isn't centered around lee sin but rather the champion pool as a whole. Things like Cinderhulk and Devourer are general changes to support other jungle characters that don't really have anything to do with lee sin's balance.

RedCyclone11 votes

{quoted}

I wasn't personally involved with the lee sin changes back then (not a 'rework' really just some live design tweaking), but I can give you my opinion for what it's worth.

I actually think the community outcry then was totally legitimate and called us out on what would have been changes that would have pushed out some of the core late game functions that lee sin players actually liked and aren't unhealthy for the game. For context the changes would have made lee sin more of an attack speed dmg carry late game rather than a pick focused tank like he his now. This is the type of feedback/response that I am glad that we are doing.

There have been a few other threads with some more in depth Morde discussion, but I can repeat/bring the discussion here. We have heard the feedback on morde and are both reacting to some of it before release and planning for possible future changes if things don't turn out exactly as we hope when he goes live. The big asks I've been seeing for morde are about his solo lane viability, and we are aiming to not hurt his play there while also adding a very new and interesting option for him to play bot lane. Once morde goes live, we will be listening to the feedback from top, mid, and bot lane morde players and reacting with whatever changes are appropriate.

Some of the other comments you have about us "picking sides" or "changing the whole game around lee sin" must be a deeper level of conspiracy than what we even know ourselves. The strategy the balance/systems team has been taking on creating/improving jungle diversity isn't centered around lee sin but rather the champion pool as a whole. Things like Cinderhulk and Devourer are general changes to support other jungle characters that don't really have anything to do with lee sin's balance.

Cassiopeia Veigar Zilean All major offenders of the "Riot knows best" treatment

So why does Lee get awful changes pulled, but other champions are just free range (there are many more reworks with poor reception that made them worse too)

RiotRiot Scruffy8 votes

I saw a good comment earlier in this thread about how the important thing isn't about being right 100% of the time. Instead it's about having a consistent mindset/approach.

So admittedly some reworks and balance changes don't turn out as good as others. That doesn't mean that we are or should be taking a different approach or use different values for each individual champion. The changes made to the three champions you listed were consistent with the same design values that we apply to all champs in league.

That said, I know we're not satisfied if cass, veigar, zil players aren't so I'm sure that we will continue to iterate on those champs and keep improving them in the future.

Retillin17 votes

But we don't see this "we will continue to iterate on those champs". Veigar was left to the wolves. Same with Zil. Yet Lucian was reworked how soon after release? Too many times there are promises to "keep an eye on" something that feels empty. What point should we trust Riot? I want to, there are some great reworks (Sion), tweaks (Ashe), updates (Gangplank). But there are a just as many if not more that disappoint at best, and are down right bad at worst.

encyclopedea3 votes

You forgot Skarner

Retillin4 votes

First off thank you for responding. So sorry in advance if this sounds mean.

{quoted}

There have been a few other threads with some more in depth Morde discussion, but I can repeat/bring the discussion here. We have heard the feedback on morde and are both reacting to some of it before release and planning for possible future changes if things don't turn out exactly as we hope when he goes live. The big asks I've been seeing for morde are about his solo lane viability, and we are aiming to not hurt his play there while also adding a very new and interesting option for him to play bot lane. Once morde goes live, we will be listening to the feedback from top, mid, and bot lane morde players and reacting with whatever changes are appropriate.

This is a bold face lie. "we are aiming to not hurt his play there (solo)". He doesn't have a spell in solo lanes. So he is screwed there. Your statement on this does not hold water at all. Sorry.

Some of the other comments you have about us "picking sides" or "changing the whole game around lee sin" must be a deeper level of conspiracy than what we even know ourselves. The strategy the balance/systems team has been taking on creating/improving jungle diversity isn't centered around lee sin but rather the champion pool as a whole. Things like Cinderhulk and Devourer are general changes to support other jungle characters that don't really have anything to do with lee sin's balance.

No, some champions are shown to get special snow flake treatment from Riot. Lee Sin is one of them. He dominated the jungle for years, and any time another champion would get picked close to his % of games (Eve, Elise, Sej, Kha, Rengar, ect...) they got nerfed to the point they were fell out of flavour. If ONE champion lives through all of that, then it IS proof he is given special treatment. (Much like Kass and Lucian had before being reworked because of their strenghts)

GigglesO6 votes

{quoted}

Some of the other comments you have about us "picking sides" or "changing the whole game around lee sin" must be a deeper level of conspiracy than what we even know ourselves.

https://twitter.com/riotmorello/status/483864535384616960

^^ Yep, defiantly a conspiracy that you guys intentionally ignored champions to "not cause an uproar". For people that don't want to face check a link, the image is attached.

SammieTwerkajerk2 votes

{quoted}

I wasn't personally involved with the lee sin changes back then (not a 'rework' really just some live design tweaking), but I can give you my opinion for what it's worth.

I actually think the community outcry then was totally legitimate and called us out on what would have been changes that would have pushed out some of the core late game functions that lee sin players actually liked and aren't unhealthy for the game. For context the changes would have made lee sin more of an attack speed dmg carry late game rather than a pick focused tank like he his now. This is the type of feedback/response that I am glad that we are doing.

There have been a few other threads with some more in depth Morde discussion, but I can repeat/bring the discussion here. We have heard the feedback on morde and are both reacting to some of it before release and planning for possible future changes if things don't turn out exactly as we hope when he goes live. The big asks I've been seeing for morde are about his solo lane viability, and we are aiming to not hurt his play there while also adding a very new and interesting option for him to play bot lane. Once morde goes live, we will be listening to the feedback from top, mid, and bot lane morde players and reacting with whatever changes are appropriate.

Some of the other comments you have about us "picking sides" or "changing the whole game around lee sin" must be a deeper level of conspiracy than what we even know ourselves. The strategy the balance/systems team has been taking on creating/improving jungle diversity isn't centered around lee sin but rather the champion pool as a whole. Things like Cinderhulk and Devourer are general changes to support other jungle characters that don't really have anything to do with lee sin's balance.

"Once morde goes live, we will be lsitening to the feedback"

What? Then what the hell is the point of the PBE? You have a majority of people on the PBE telling you the new Morde is bad, but you still insist on bringing it to live. That completely ruins the point of it! I've always heard that you guys don't actually listen to suggestions on the PBE and only use it to showcase your game for youtubers, but I've always tried to turn a blind eye to it. If you are going to wait for the feedback from the live servers, then just f***ing delete the PBE because it has literally no use, or better yet, remodel it into the sandbox mode everyone has been asking for.

On a side note, do you have any plans in the future to remake or adjust the PBE in anyway? In the current state of "We'll fix it when it hits live", you seem to not even care for it or the feedback the 1% of actual reviewers give you and it is GOING to hurt the live servers.

Xonra2 votes

{quoted}

"Once morde goes live, we will be lsitening to the feedback"

What? Then what the hell is the point of the PBE? You have a majority of people on the PBE telling you the new Morde is bad, but you still insist on bringing it to live. That completely ruins the point of it! I've always heard that you guys don't actually listen to suggestions on the PBE and only use it to showcase your game for youtubers, but I've always tried to turn a blind eye to it. If you are going to wait for the feedback from the live servers, then just f***ing delete the PBE because it has literally no use, or better yet, remodel it into the sandbox mode everyone has been asking for.

On a side note, do you have any plans in the future to remake or adjust the PBE in anyway? In the current state of "We'll fix it when it hits live", you seem to not even care for it or the feedback the 1% of actual reviewers give you and it is GOING to hurt the live servers.

I've been saying this for years, but no one listened to me. This is exactly why I gave up completely on testing things, because feedback on items/new champs/changes were ignored, then they go live and suddenly they scramble to fix it like they discovered issues that we were telling them about long before they made it to live.

It would be like telling a dealership you work at that you can't sell a new car with the 4th wheel on the hood, that is bad car design, but they wave you off. they continue to ignore you and suddenly there is a new line of awkward cars. They go for sale and people complain. Next year the car has 4 wheels but this time the engine is actually inside the car in the passenger seat.

Eventually you just get tired of trying to point out obvious issues because, they aren't going to listen anyways because they obviously "know better" so what's the point?

StealthWarden9 votes

lee sin is getting buffed.

**Flurry [ Passive ]

Lee Sin now gains 20 energy back on the first basic attack and 10 on the second, changed from 15 energy on both attacks

Dragons Rage Final IconDragon’s Rage [ R ]

If the target of the kick hits an enemy Champion, it deals additional physical damage equal to 12/15/18% of its bonus Health (damage stacks with more targets hit) **

i think we're done here.

PBE News

lDontLiftIcarry9 votes

Evelynn Main since her release.

I have no pity for anyone. I didn't even want the rework, I was fine with post stun removal eve. Because AP eve jungle worked just fine.

Now she's gutted. 80 damage max rank Q. Phsyical E. R is worthless at killing anything and doesn't even heal when I do kill.

but muh AD eve. I knew thats what they'd balance eve around. AD eve. Because fuck you for liking deathcap/znhoyas/rylias/haunting guise eve.

EvilRabbitt1 votes

I played Eve a bit, then they nerfed Runeglaive and I was about to pick her up again...then they nerfed Q. -_- Eve is such a fun jungler too.

lDontLiftIcarry2 votes

i didnt even get to play that. I played 1 game. And then the next day it was nerfed and Idk what happened to it. So idk if runeglaive was good or not basically because I work 70+ hours a week and dont have time for league. why i've decayed from diamond to plat. I don't have time to play a million games a day. I've stayed upa fter work almost eveyr day trying to get back to diamond but I just cant do it. Jungling in low elo is hard.

I'm planning to switch to doing mid/adc until im back at diamond.

Just gonna buy viktor and abuse him.

EvilRabbitt1 votes

I'm just trying to play my fiora- problem is when I was bad, no one camped me. Now that I have a slight idea, I had an Olaf dive me under tower at lvl 4 (and invade/gank at lvl 2) and then come back at 7. =/ Never ending ganks. Not gonna lie, that made me pretty salty.

lDontLiftIcarry3 votes

fiora is really garbage now her ult is too hard to make work.

She's not even half a champion anymore.

I wouldn't bother trying her in ranked until she gets a better rework.

played 10 games of her and was like "yeah this ult is literally shit" The only way it ever activated was if they died. I never once hit all 4 sides. I hit 2-3 sides multiple times but all 4, not once.

kile1471 votes

Not going to comment on her balance state, but I don't think you were intended to hit all 4 sides of the ult consistently. At level 6 hitting 3 sides will probably deal around 15% of their health as true damage, alongside whatever damage your AA normally do. That's probably around 150 damage, whereas someone like Malphite (who is supposed to have large base damages on his moves because tank) does 200 damage with his ult, and his is reduced by resistances which would mean it would probably do less damage.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Fiora has an ultimate that deals %max health true damage that scales based on her AD and her personal skill, and even an average player can proc 50%-75% of the damage for it in a 1v1 scenario. If you are hoping to 100-0 someone with her ult then I guess it would be disappointing, but it does some pretty hefty damage without you having to give up auto attacking or dodging.

ChimeiTekinaNasu1 votes

{quoted}

Not going to comment on her balance state, but I don't think you were intended to hit all 4 sides of the ult consistently.

Do you read?? I don't think you reached the bottom part of his comment.

"I never once hit all 4 sides. I hit 2-3 sides multiple times but all 4, not once."

Not intended to hit all 4 consistently?? He can't even hit it once. Not once.

kile1471 votes

Doesn't make the damage of hitting 2-3 any less powerful. You get four sides to give you options, and you proc the heal when they die. If you're not doing enough damage with your autos, then you go for all 4 sides and maybe get it, and if not you still earned a massive advantage in the duel by just getting 2-3. As far as I'm concerned almost any target worth ulting shouldn't last more than 2-3 sides anyways.

Aspynn1 votes

Just because op can't hit all 4 sides doesn't mean other people can't. I've started to like taking ghost on fiora and using it with my ult, and maybe she'd do really well with movespeed quints and masteries or boots of swiftness or something.

ChimeiTekinaNasu1 votes

{quoted}

Just because op can't hit all 4 sides doesn't mean other people can't.

LDontLiftICarry isn't the original poster, but okay o.o

TheFameAnimal8 votes

Riot are so biased with some champs, and just leave others in the dirt. I appreciate that the game as a whole can be hard to balance, but with individual champions riot usually have NO reason to nerf some or buff others, and when they do have a reason, it's complete bs.

Saianna8 votes

I'd also add Cassiopeia rework. She fits here perfectly...

AndroidYumi4 votes

Never forget.... never forgive...

sealust5 votes

Riot has literally said they balance for high lvl play, whic makes sense. However, this means that champs not played at this teir are generally left in the dust, usually with the reasons they are not used in said play.

EvilRabbitt4 votes

And its a cycle. You don't get buffs unless you see pro play. You don't see pro play unless you get buffs. GG You get reworked, then asked a question and given a request from a main rumbles off angrily

sealust1 votes

{quoted}

And its a cycle. You don't get buffs unless you see pro play. You don't see pro play unless you get buffs. GG You get reworked, then asked a question and given a request from a main rumbles off angrily

eyup then they dominate in pro play, get gutted, and get reworked Elise

Feathermane4 votes

Lee playerbase: tens of millions, including some Rioters.

Morde playerbase: N/A

Malicious Metal33 votes

{quoted}

Lee playerbase: tens of millions, including some Rioters.

Morde playerbase: N/A

Oi! We might be few in numbers but our metal hearts beat with the fury of a thousand suns!

DeusVult3 votes

http://i.imgur.com/db3UiVT.gif[/img]

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