I don't get why people think champions need game-changing crazy mechanics to be considered a success

Crett·Sep 15, 2015·34 votes·2,288 views

Sure, you could list off how all Kindred's abilities are knockoffs of existing abilities. But make sure you try the new champion, and see how these abilities work together and how this champion interacts with the rest of the game as a whole.

Cohesiveness makes champions. Not every individual skill being a crazy amalgam of unexplored mechanics. Nautilus, Thresh, and Blitzcrank all have varying versions of the same ability, and yet they are all defined in their own way, because of how their kit works overall.

The only problem I have with Kindred is not "Recycled abilities" IT'S INFINITELY SCALING CURRENT HEALTH DAMAGE THAT REACHES 100% EVENTUALLY THAT'S THE REAL PROBLEM

66 Comments

NarasimhaSep 16, 20158 votes

I think the main issue is expectations. People were really expecting a new sort of dual champion, something like Quinn and Valor done right. Instead, Riot threw us a jungling Marksmen. It's... nice, but its not even that interesting.

Voluug13Sep 16, 20152 votes

They should have reworked Quinn into a marksman jungler while making Kindred something else.

SwapShadowsSep 15, 20157 votes

if it's one thing I love about thresh's, zeds and yasuo's kit it's that they have simple kits that bring something new or add a variety of combos from their abilities. You can do something different with them in different situations.

I dislike kits like Annies because they're boring and make you do the same thing everytime in different situations.

dannykunSep 16, 201511 votes

{quoted}

if it's one thing I love about thresh's, zeds and yasuo's kit it's that they have simple kits that bring something new or add a variety of combos from their abilities. You can do something different with them in different situations.

I dislike kits like Annies because they're boring and make you do the same thing everytime in different situations.

But on that same exact hand, their kits are very overloaded, and grant them something powerful for every situation. Making counters to the champion difficult to create and when they get ahead, exceedingly hard to shut down. All the champs you pointed out have extremely heavy kits with many different working parts. Granted zed's kit is simpler than the other two, but that doesn't mean that his kit is in any way less overloaded, he has many "hidden" strengths that are exploited when you get to gold level and higher, like invulnerability frames (everyones favorite mechanic :/ ) high mobility and range through shadow manipulation, and the ability to escape after killing a target (assuming you saved your shadow for after your dive).

Annie has a weakness, she's got low mobility and short ranges for a mage, not to mention missing any part of her kit usually results in failure to do the one thing she's good at. she shouldn't give you trouble if you grab a bit of MR from a damage or health item and a QSS. Mass stunning with tibbers is really nice, so having a great high moment is good, but in no way toxic. Having a form of extremely high mobility is, with almost every single champ having skill shots involved in their kits, having many reliable ways of dodging them or kiting indefinately is a little much don't you think. That's why they had to nerf Kalista's backstep on her passive, why many parts of yasuo's kit got nerfed, and why thresh has been so relavent in the meta for so long as a sup.

High mobility gives you the ability to counterplay more, and with much better results, than champs who don't have the same design. Annie is left in her current state because the only true counter to high mobility is instant burst damage that has little counterplay other than survive. Even then, just build some MR if she's building a lot of AP, or build health if she's building a lot of Mpen, and you'll live through the burst and pretty much destroy her since she shouldn't have any CD's left to work with.

TL:DR, If you think that the kits you mentioned are in any way healthy kits, mobility creep has something to say about that.

UltraSceptileSep 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But on that same exact hand, their kits are very overloaded, and grant them something powerful for every situation. Making counters to the champion difficult to create and when they get ahead, exceedingly hard to shut down. All the champs you pointed out have extremely heavy kits with many different working parts. Granted zed's kit is simpler than the other two, but that doesn't mean that his kit is in any way less overloaded, he has many "hidden" strengths that are exploited when you get to gold level and higher, like invulnerability frames (everyones favorite mechanic :/ ) high mobility and range through shadow manipulation, and the ability to escape after killing a target (assuming you saved your shadow for after your dive).

Annie has a weakness, she's got low mobility and short ranges for a mage, not to mention missing any part of her kit usually results in failure to do the one thing she's good at. she shouldn't give you trouble if you grab a bit of MR from a damage or health item and a QSS. Mass stunning with tibbers is really nice, so having a great high moment is good, but in no way toxic. Having a form of extremely high mobility is, with almost every single champ having skill shots involved in their kits, having many reliable ways of dodging them or kiting indefinately is a little much don't you think. That's why they had to nerf Kalista's backstep on her passive, why many parts of yasuo's kit got nerfed, and why thresh has been so relavent in the meta for so long as a sup.

High mobility gives you the ability to counterplay more, and with much better results, than champs who don't have the same design. Annie is left in her current state because the only true counter to high mobility is instant burst damage that has little counterplay other than survive. Even then, just build some MR if she's building a lot of AP, or build health if she's building a lot of Mpen, and you'll live through the burst and pretty much destroy her since she shouldn't have any CD's left to work with.

TL:DR, If you think that the kits you mentioned are in any way healthy kits, mobility creep has something to say about that.

Annie has very little weakness compared to zed or yasuo, and that is the zero risk. She doesn't need mobility, she can literally pop anything that appears in front of her. I've seen a 3 item annie at 40 minutes just deal half an adcs health with Q W even though the adc has banshees (shield got popped). Her laning is extremely safe because you have a stun you can hold for literally forever, and at level six unless your opponent is stacking MR they're dead.

I would rather play against a team full of mobility that I can outplay than get hit with instant point and click literal oneshots. At least rengar jumps into your team to kill you. Annie just flash ult Q and walks out.

People overexaggerate mobility. Yes it's powerful, yes it can be annoying. But more broken than point and click mages? Not by a long shot.

SlaktarTaskenSep 16, 20156 votes

Very little weakness? Counterpick her with any champ that outranges her and you'll see tons of weaknessess, build mr and you'll easely survive her burst as she doesn't scale all that well, she's a one trick pony, if she fails to do what she is designed to do and she's just dead wheight.

No, she not weaker than Zed or Yasuo, not even close and hasn't been since her season 3-4 support era (pre stun nerf), they have alot of tools to outplay her with, they are NOT mana reliant, there is just so much Annie can do as her kit is straight forward while theirs are so diverse they can be manipulated to suit the need of the situation.

UltraSceptileSep 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Very little weakness? Counterpick her with any champ that outranges her and you'll see tons of weaknessess, build mr and you'll easely survive her burst as she doesn't scale all that well, she's a one trick pony, if she fails to do what she is designed to do and she's just dead wheight.

No, she not weaker than Zed or Yasuo, not even close and hasn't been since her season 3-4 support era (pre stun nerf), they have alot of tools to outplay her with, they are NOT mana reliant, there is just so much Annie can do as her kit is straight forward while theirs are so diverse they can be manipulated to suit the need of the situation.

Counterpick her with something that outranges her.

So basically only Xerath.

And then she flash ults you and you're dead at level 6. I've seen how the match up goes, xerath is at tower, autoes the caster minion for some mana back, annie flash ults him, Q W then Q ignite and he's dead, right at level six. She didn't have a single kill and had amp tone and catalyst. Fucking balanced champion.

Voluug13Sep 16, 20152 votes

Azir Ezreal Karma Karthus Lux Nidalee Syndra Urgot Varus Velkoz Ziggs Zilean Zyra

And then she flash ults you and you're dead at level 6. I've seen how the match up goes, xerath is at tower, autoes the caster minion for some mana back, annie flash ults him, Q W then Q ignite and he's dead, right at level six. She didn't have a single kill and had amp tone and catalyst. Fucking balanced champion.

So your entire argument is ''Annie is OP because of flash'', then flash is the problem not Annie. Also, summoner 21 literally shits on Annie. Which Xerath makes awesome use of too. BTW Annie cant oneshot anyone with Tibbers alone unless she is 5/0 at 10min.

Plus that Xerath must be prettty bad to not use E to stun the flashing Annie. Or to not have Annie pushed against her tower and wasting her mana trying to waveclear.

In conclusion, you are only presenting biased and onesided situations that worthless as a valid argument.

Annie is a counterpick against Zed Talon and Yasuo . And despite all that Riot every tries, they will never be able to eliminate champion select or the concept of counterpick, specifically because they use those to justify power/mobility creep.

SlaktarTaskenSep 16, 20151 votes

While I agree Annie is good vs Zed and Talon, I find her lackluster against Yasuo, his passive and windwall just denies too during the early game for poor little Annie who is so badly snowball reliant. Also, once he has shiv he'll be the one kiting Annie with those free shiv passive crits not the other way around.

Voluug13Sep 16, 20151 votes

You have to take into account that Q has way less cd that Windwall, and that W ignores Windwall too. Annie also has a pretty big AA range to keep Yasuo without shield at every moment of laning phase. So you can basically stun with W, wait until WW dies down, and burn with P&C Q and instant R.

Yasuo himself has pretty low harass potential on Annie until Statikk, and even there Annie can simply stay behind minions while the minions take the proc. What yasuo can do is push and roam, which is equally effective that with assassins.

Actually Zed has a better time that any other assassin because of safe clear and pushing/farming. Which no oter assassin has. A good Zed can ignore a Annie and push his lane until he can roam at level 6 from a very safe range with a very easy tower farming.

UltraSceptileSep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So your entire argument is ''Annie is OP because of flash'', then flash is the problem not Annie. Also, literally shits on Annie. Which Xerath makes awesome use of too. BTW Annie cant oneshot anyone with Tibbers alone unless she is 5/0 at 10min.

Plus that Xerath must be prettty bad to not use E to stun the flashing Annie. Or to not have Annie pushed against her tower and wasting her mana trying to waveclear.

In conclusion, you are only presenting biased and onesided situations that worthless as a valid argument.

Annie is a counterpick against and . And despite all that Riot every tries, they will never be able to eliminate champion select or the concept of counterpick, specifically because they use those to justify power/mobility creep.

No, what she does is she flash ults you, KILLS you in lane once, and then after that you are now infinitely zoned from ever farming unless you have massive range, like xerath. Everything else is forced to farm with their very max ranged spells and if get hit even by the tip of an annie ult instantly die.

Sounds like a very fun and interactive lane to me.

I'd rather play against 10 rengars than an annie.

Voluug13Sep 17, 20151 votes

If she flashs you can flash back.

If you outrange her, Barrier is the best choice. It can be used in cc and has much, much less cooldown that flash. There is also the point that if you play anything with range, a decent player can harrass her, zone her or force her to recall, or simply keep her low enough to force her to not engage - Annie has awesome burst but not enough to kill someone with any amount of MR/HP/Barrier. If she engages you while she is at low hp (which with a ranged mage she should be!), she is dead. And probably wasted Flash.

If you dont, you can push (Annie is shit a pushing) and roam. Almost every assassin like Zed, Yasuo and Kata can force Annie to her tower and proceed to roam and get feed.

Annie is a skill match up because even against those she counters, she still leaves them with options. Something that isnt really easy to say about assassins and how onesided their favorable matchups are. Except those options dont include ''how to solo the champion that inherently counters me''

If you are having problems with Annie, then its a player issue.

Learn to counterpick and safe pick. This isnt assassin meta anymore. Despite what foolishly Riot tries, counterpick and champion select are still amongs the most important parts of the game.
Learn to choose your fights. Assassins wont beat Annie (or any of their counters) on a 1v1 fight on equal skill/gold. Its intended. Even if Riot hates it.
Learn that winning lane =/= winning game. You can win the game without even getting one kill on your enemy laner. Learn to push, to roam, to counterjungle, to ward and to lane-swap. Lane rekt isnt the only choice.

UltraSceptileSep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If she flashs you can flash back.

If you outrange her, Barrier is the best choice. It can be used in cc and has much, much less cooldown that flash. There is also the point that if you play anything with range, a decent player can harrass her, zone her or force her to recall, or simply keep her low enough to force her to not engage - Annie has awesome burst but not enough to kill someone with any amount of MR/HP/Barrier. If she engages you while she is at low hp (which with a ranged mage she should be!), she is dead. And probably wasted Flash.

If you dont, you can push (Annie is shit a pushing) and roam. Almost every assassin like Zed, Yasuo and Kata can force Annie to her tower and proceed to roam and get feed.

Annie is a skill match up because even against those she counters, she still leaves them with options. Something that isnt really easy to say about assassins and how onesided their favorable matchups are. Except those options dont include ''how to solo the champion that inherently counters me''

If you are having problems with Annie, then its a player issue.

Learn to counterpick and safe pick. This isnt assassin meta anymore. Despite what foolishly Riot tries, counterpick and champion select are still amongs the most important parts of the game.

Learn to choose your fights. Assassins wont beat Annie (or any of their counters) on a 1v1 fight on equal skill/gold. Its intended. Even if Riot hates it.

Learn that winning lane =/= winning game. You can win the game without even getting one kill on your enemy laner. Learn to push, to roam, to counterjungle, to ward and to lane-swap. Lane rekt isnt the only choice.

How many videos should I show you where some guy flashes out of place, and still gets hit by annie ult and then Q Wed for the rest of their health bar?

Not only assassins struggle against annie. Only very, VERY long range mages or mages who literally never have to interact with their lane opponent because of their extremely spammable waveclear (anivia and xerath) can manage to keep out of annie's way because they can just instantly clear minions and then they'll be at tower where annie won't risk trying to burst you. But everything else, including melee champs? SHe's a huge fuck you that you can't do a single thing about.

If you have to pick champions to specifically counter another, you know something is wrong. Instant burst (which doesn't even need snowballing) is broken as hell, not to mention from range too, as well as massive utility which makes them a viable support pick. Annie is broken, and just because G&B loves every single one of them doesn't mean her design is healthy at all.

Here, I'll tell you this. Rengar's 100-0 from stealth and Riven flash W ult oneshot on adc is more balanced than annie. Why? They have to be melee to have such massive near uncounterable burst which means if your support thinks fast he can do something.

NarasimhaSep 16, 20152 votes

well, she's a one trick pony, if she fails to do what she is designed to do and she's just dead wheight.

This is actually the main problem. It's not about her strength. It's just about how binary her playstyle is. Either she's in range, and she can unleash a full combo. Or she doesn't, and she's useless. She doesn't have any other options.

SlaktarTaskenSep 16, 20151 votes

I'll agree to a certain extent, yes, Annie is binary, as such, she should never be blind picked into any teamcomp as she'll just get hammered in lane. But honestly, I'd rather face a binary champ any day that can easely be counterplayed as counterbuilt as opposed to an extremely versatile champ that just facerolls QWER and nope, denied or dead. I think both styles are somewhat detrimental to the health of the game and champ design should be more oriented in between, but that's just my opinion.

dannykunSep 17, 20151 votes

I completely agree with this, as the game dynamic has shifted dramatically from alpha and beta when she was introduced, I feel that annie should be redesigned to better fit the role they want her to fill. giving her a new passive that either helps her burst better, or gives her better engages and reducing her base damage, would really help her be less binary and feel like a much more complete champion.

Something like leaving her stun only on her ult, that way she still has great potential for engages, and changing her charge system to something a little different, maybe she can get additional damage or effect after casting a spell (like a spellblade type effect, but instead empowering another spell) and have a moderate cd (like 8 sec or something). That way laning would still be q farming, but it would incentivise her to poke with another spell in hopes of getting that additional effect. She could get very interesting effects like, q could be free to recast but only deals 30% of the original damage, w gains a ticking dot that deals a flat amount of added damage, e could help her defensively or have a speed boost, and her ult would have a stun. This gives her so many added options for different build paths she could go, and force her to plan ahead if she wants to engage, but also gives her clear and effective combo's she could set up. This would be a pretty awesome way of shaking up her kit, but keeping her intent, while also giving her the ability to really shine as a unique champion with easily to defined counterplay, but also have more and better options for when she's ahead, and especially when behind.

WarlockLawSep 16, 20157 votes

Personally I'd rather play against a team full of champs like Annie. Sure if she catches you off guard and you aren't a tank she will kill you, but on the same hand if you catch HER off guard she is likely dead, especially if her ult is down. Champs like Annie and Malz emphasize positioning as a core game component. If you get out of position vs them you die. Conversely if they get out of position then they die. To me Yasuo/Zed/Kalista/etc are more frustrating to play because they don't have to position as careful. They can get caught out, but they can still manage to escape with a fancy outplay rather than flashing.

tl;dr I would rather play where positioning and planning are more important than reflex-based outplays.

BluePolarizerSep 16, 20153 votes

That's not true. Try playing Annie vs. Ahri, Lux, Ziggs, Lulu or Xerath to find out her weaknesses lol.

Also, with good reflexes, you can flash her flash, and if Annie fails to snowball, she falls off hard.

NineTailedMysticSep 16, 20151 votes

Annie is Ahri's hardest counter, what are you on about.

BluePolarizerSep 16, 20152 votes

No she is not. Just don't attempt to fight Annie and use your superior mobility to gank side lanes since Annie has zero kill pressure on you pre-6 or without flash+ult+ignite. Post-6 position well, long range waveclear then back, roam side lane. Do not miss a single MIA call. Defensively flash/ult her flash if you need to.

I don't see a single reason why you should not be able to outfarm Annie, snowball other lanes and win the game extremely easily as Ahri. Just don't fight her head on and use her weaknesses in positioning and mobility against her. All you need to do is not die to her in the first 10 minutes and the game's in the bag if the other lanes are not mindless potatoes and can right click.

NineTailedMysticSep 16, 20151 votes

Statistically, she is (Well Talon is, statistically. but Annie is 2nd). Ahri doesn't have superior mobility until post 6, and you're not gonna use ult just to get to the lane or spam Q down river so you can be out of mana by the time you get there. Annie actually has a higher base MS than Ahri (335 to 330) and I'm pretty sure some Annies like to run MS things in their runes/masteries. Post 6, playing around a flash is so detrimental to your exp/cs, and I'm not a god to be able to have the reflexes to flash when she does, because even if you're a millisecond late in flash/ult'ing away from her, if she has already pressed R you'll be stunned no matter how far you end up.

That isn't even including the huge teamfight presence, because even a good 2 man stun can win her team the fight.

Ahri's biggest counters are people who can burst her before she can react, and people who can hold her down long enough to kill her. Annie can do both of these things. Ahri's main selling point is her mobility combined with her damage to make plays/outplays, but you can't outplay something that hits you 100% of the time.

(Picture is champion.gg, statistics are measured in ranked games plat+ and over the course of 1000+ games)

Amélie CauchemarSep 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

No she is not. Just don't attempt to fight Annie and use your superior mobility to gank side lanes since Annie has zero kill pressure on you pre-6 or without flash+ult+ignite. Post-6 position well, long range waveclear then back, roam side lane. Do not miss a single MIA call. Defensively flash/ult her flash if you need to.

I don't see a single reason why you should not be able to outfarm Annie, snowball other lanes and win the game extremely easily as Ahri. Just don't fight her head on and use her weaknesses in positioning and mobility against her. All you need to do is not die to her in the first 10 minutes and the game's in the bag if the other lanes are not mindless potatoes and can right click.

item 3117 All Annies that main her build this. Annie actually out roams Ahri pretty regularly lol. She'll zone Ahri with stun. Making it so Ahri is forced to freeze lane because if she blows abilities to shove Annie will just delete her with 0 risk.

She'll also consistently back off the frozen lane and "disappear" forcing the Ahri player to shove the lane and risk dying, or do nothing and let Annie go do whatever she wants.

Also most Annies that respect their opponents will use their stun with their W, and not their ult because W is undodgeable without the usage of flash. Others will use it with their Q so that they can get TWO Q rotations in a single combo which is actually more damage than opening with ult.

The only way this match up is remotely beneficial to Ahri is if the Annie is completely out matched skill wise, otherwise the match up is entirely in Annie's favor.

BluePolarizerSep 17, 20151 votes

Ahri was, up to last week, literally the best mid laner in the game and simultaneously the most popular mid laner in the game, all while having less games played on average per player (thus meaning she wasn't played by mains) than Annie. I haven't seen Mobis on Annie for a while and statistics support this, so I don't know how zero mobility Annie can outroam Ahri who has a wall jump and can use her ult for a behind-turret gank that Annie simply can't pull off without dying.

Also, W has a much shorter range than R. I don't know where you get that shit where ppl lead with W lol.

Amélie CauchemarSep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ahri was, up to last week, literally the best mid laner in the game and simultaneously the most popular mid laner in the game, all while having less games played on average per player (thus meaning she wasn't played by mains) than Annie. I haven't seen Mobis on Annie for a while and statistics support this, so I don't know how zero mobility Annie can outroam Ahri who has a wall jump and can use her ult for a behind-turret gank that Annie simply can't pull off without dying.

Also, W has a much shorter range than R. I don't know where you get that shit where ppl lead with W lol.

I get my information/experience from the plethora of diamond annies I come across on a regular basis in my ranked games.

I also see you have a shit winrate/kd with Annie.

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/41724256#matches

Meet an Annie main.

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/35590582#matches

Oh look, another Annie main.

http://www.lolskill.net/summoner/KR/%EC%95%A0%EB%8B%88%EC%99%80%EC%9E%A0%EC%9E%90%EB%A6%AC

oh look, another Annie main.

http://www.lolskill.net/summoner/NA/Tibberfall/matches

Oh look ANOTHER ANNIE MAIN.

I can literally . . . scroll through the ENTIRE LIST OF ANNIE MAINS.

Do you know what they ALL HAVE IN COMMON.

They build this

item 1328 In almost all of their games.

Please, for the love of God do not come running in here throwing out shit you know absolutely nothing about in lanes you have next to 0 experience in. It is this exact shit that makes inexperienced people have expectations based on misinformation that leads them into being defeated.

P.S I actually run into a lot of Annies that will open with W. It's actually BETTER to use W in certain match ups.

Ahri Fizz Zed Katarina <-- these champs in particular have the potential to juke Tibbers which is a lot of your damage out put. However W is unexpected as an initiation which leads to a much higher chance of stunning them and getting your full combo off.

Thank you come again. Good day.

BluePolarizerSep 17, 20151 votes

lol you played what, 4 games on Annie and use Ahri for freelo. If Annie was so good you'd use her. GTFO of here with the "diamond Annie" shit lol. You act like you're the only one who plays against diamonds.

Amélie CauchemarSep 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

lol you played what, 4 games on Annie and use Ahri for freelo. If Annie was so good you'd use her. GTFO of here with the "diamond Annie" shit lol. You act like you're the only one who plays against diamonds.

I don't use her except when I'm stuck supporting because I frankly really don't like her. Her entire play style is fucking boring to me.

Do you know what the difference skill wise between a challenger Annie player and an Annie bot is?

Nothing. It's almost pure decision making from silver to challlenger with Annie. There is nothing to learn/gain from her after using her four abilities. BOOOOORIIING.

I also know you DONT play against diamonds at your current mmr.

There's also a GIANT list of Annie mains builds that completely invalidate all of your opinions.

Why don't you go tell everyone that Vayne isn't so common and that Caitlyn shits on her late game while you're at it.

Maybe also tell people that Janna is a shit support too.

While you're at it.

Tell Shen mains that Trundle is an easy match up and to just "gank bot lane"

They also need a good laugh.

TheSlogsSep 16, 20153 votes

Yasuo has by far one of the most overloaded kits in the game...

VibidiSep 16, 20154 votes

youre doing gods work with this post

AvaBeeSep 16, 20152 votes

I half agree with you. I think unexplored territory keeps the game interesting and shakes the grouchy old meta, but trying to do too much with characters and overloading their kits is a problem. This and lack of cohesion between their abilities is what makes me wary of Kindred. They'll definitely be broken beyond belief on release and then be nerfed into the ground, where we'll probably just see a pile of overtuned mechanics that cant do any one thing well

CrettSep 16, 20151 votes

Of course. There should be champions that introduce new mechanics and ability types. But the community shouldn't have such a kneejerk reaction to a champion made with more simple abilities (not that this champion is simple, but they're being perceived as boring/bland)

AvaBeeSep 16, 20151 votes

if the champion theme as a whole was boring or might as well have been a pallette swap of another champion, then there's a problem. Otherwise it's fine but it probably wont interest me. It's only worth crying out against after multiple consecutive champions being lazily designed

SlaktarTaskenSep 16, 20151 votes

Indeed, but not before skin sales, sadly, this is probably an intended strategy. Most of the times at least.

ShaftyMegeeSep 16, 20152 votes

People always bitch about new champs, hell this one JUST came into the PBE and people are flipping tables.

People need to take a chill pill

MohawkBirdSep 17, 20152 votes

[deleted]

CrettSep 17, 20151 votes

Exactly

SlaktarTaskenSep 16, 20151 votes

I agree, considering how oppressive it can be to play against late-game focused comps, now we're adding one more to the fold, because it's so goddamn fun to play games with a timer: Close the game before 25th minute or lose, fuck early game and fuck anything that isn't about farming. Meh. I'm equally tired of these lategame oriented supermegadegaendless scaling BS and true damage/%percentage heatlh damage, when was the last time we had a champ that was early game oriented? With flat damage? Without gamebreaking mechanics? Or some kind of mega-mobility? Heck, even Fiora was remade to be far more mobile than she ever was before. Because mobility = fun?

Either way... I can honestly not remember.

I don't see why ever new champ has to be so special, I'd like to see a somewhat "normal" champ released for once, not saying I'm opposed to new stuff among the newer champs, Braum, Vel'Koz and Bard were great additions, Yasuo was/is just another silly example of the "just meh", another champ that's overbearing because of broken mechanics and thus almost always feast or famine.

CaptnJakSparrowSep 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I agree, considering how oppressive it can be to play against late-game focused comps, now we're adding one more to the fold, because it's so goddamn fun to play games with a timer: Close the game before 25th minute or lose, fuck early game and fuck anything that isn't about farming. Meh. I'm equally tired of these lategame oriented supermegadegaendless scaling BS and true damage/%percentage heatlh damage, when was the last time we had a champ that was early game oriented? With flat damage? Without gamebreaking mechanics? Or some kind of mega-mobility? Heck, even Fiora was remade to be far more mobile than she ever was before. Because mobility = fun?

Either way... I can honestly not remember.

I don't see why ever new champ has to be so special, I'd like to see a somewhat "normal" champ released for once, not saying I'm opposed to new stuff among the newer champs, Braum, Vel'Koz and Bard were great additions, Yasuo was/is just another silly example of the "just meh", another champ that's overbearing because of broken mechanics and thus almost always feast or famine.

then you'd complain about how brainless and ez to play the new champ is and how "ez it is to kill anyone" then cry for 10,000 nerfs.

Ryze champs like this can never be viable, because when they're viable they're absurdly and beyond broken. There is no mediocrity with these champs.

SlaktarTaskenSep 16, 20152 votes

I know very little about the champ to be honest so I won't delve into that, it's Riots design filosophy that's tilting me, why can't we have a champ with a fairly straight forward design for once?

It's all seems to be about tripple or quadraple passives, gamebreaking mechanics, maximum outplay potential, minimal counterplay potential, honestly, it was pretty cool for a while. Now it's just old, frustrating and boring.

CaptnJakSparrowSep 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I know very little about the champ to be honest so I won't delve into that, it's Riots design filosophy that's tilting me, why can't we have a champ with a fairly straight forward design for once?

It's all seems to be about tripple or quadraple passives, gamebreaking mechanics, maximum outplay potential, minimal counterplay potential, honestly, it was pretty cool for a while. Now it's just old, frustrating and boring.

All of his abilities are point click and scale with mana. So he's naturally tanky while doing sustained damage adc level but with ap burst. It's also aoe, and he has built in spellvamp.

SlaktarTaskenSep 16, 20151 votes

Oh, so another overloaded champ that will be borderline if not straight out impossible to balance? How original... but at least Riot will make of killing off selling skinns right? That's always something.. -.-

CaptnJakSparrowSep 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Oh, so another overloaded champ that will be borderline if not straight out impossible to balance? How original... but at least Riot will make of killing off selling skinns right? That's always something.. -.-

You know Ryze was one of the first champs ever made, right?

You know, during the "peak of balanced champs"

All the champs coming out right now have 10x the counterplay the older champs do lol.

Season 1/2 counterplay was " dont be within 2,000 yards of said champ or gg."

SlaktarTaskenSep 16, 20151 votes

I've been playing since early season two and as far as I'm concerned we've never had any peaks of balance, I believe we we're getting there by the end of seaston 3 but boy was I wrong. Also, I thought you just proclaimed Kindred has point and click CC, I thought those were among the things Riot were trying to REMOVE from the game, that's why I don't get why they are addint it?

CaptnJakSparrowSep 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I've been playing since early season two and as far as I'm concerned we've never had any peaks of balance, I believe we we're getting there by the end of seaston 3 but boy was I wrong. Also, I thought you just proclaimed Kindred has point and click CC, I thought those were among the things Riot were trying to REMOVE from the game, that's why I don't get why they are addint it?

she doesn't really have cc tbh.

A slow really isn't a cc in this game anymore. With all the dashes and cc removal abilities/items + passives her slow is only going to be useful on like . . . a small hand full of champions, or very specific moments.

LeetriSep 16, 20151 votes

Simple champions are binary and boring to play against. You either get situation A or situation B. Take Annie as an example. Does she have her stun up? Don't get remotely close, you'll die. She just used her stun? Go all in while you can. It's also harder to balance them, Riot has less levers to pull. As CaptnJakSparrow said, if they're viable they're absurdly strong. Annie is picked support just because her stun is so ridiculously good. Same reason Veigar was picked as a support before his rework.

Tahm Kench is very straight forward, so is Braum and Vel'Koz. I'm sure there's others, these were the ones that immediately sprung to mind though.

BluePolarizerSep 16, 20152 votes

nope that's actually due to your bad mechanics, build or decision. If you are playing a champ with longer range, you can flash her flash. If you are playing a melee with a spell shield you can react fast enough. Remember, diamonds react fast enough with Thresh to flay Pantheon or Leona jumps. That means the solution is to get better.

Annie support is trash and has extremely low win rate for a reason: the stun isn't that good if it doesn't have damage behind it, compared to real support CC.

RaptameiSep 16, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I agree, considering how oppressive it can be to play against late-game focused comps, now we're adding one more to the fold, because it's so goddamn fun to play games with a timer: Close the game before 25th minute or lose, fuck early game and fuck anything that isn't about farming. Meh. I'm equally tired of these lategame oriented supermegadegaendless scaling BS and true damage/%percentage heatlh damage, when was the last time we had a champ that was early game oriented? With flat damage?

Whenever we have an early game champion (Leblanc, Urgot, Yorick) people whine and cry because "losing lane with no counterplay is so fun".

AutoreactiveCD4Sep 16, 20151 votes

When vi was first revealed and no one had even played her on the PBE they thought she was a riven knock off. There are similarities I admit. But then when she started being played everyone saw that wasn't the case at all. Just keep this example in your head when you think execution vs theory.

TehNACHOSep 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The only problem I have with Kindred is not "Recycled abilities" IT'S INFINITELY SCALING CURRENT HEALTH DAMAGE THAT REACHES 100% EVENTUALLY THAT'S THE REAL PROBLEM

You need to kill over 57 targets, 51 champs if we ignore Wolf, to do this. You can't also camp a particular feeder over and over due to the time limit on remarking somebody. This is before you consider Armor Reduction, as well. I'm pretty sure it's not a problem.

On a slightly more serious note, I really am disappointed that people complain about these things. I mean Vi's on 3 hit effect has a much different impact on the game than Mordekaiser's, for example, so I don't see why people need to complain in that regard as long as the effects don't do the exact same job for the exact same effect.

CrettSep 17, 20151 votes

It actually takes 80 stacks to reach 100%. In a custom game, I reached 50 stacks, and my first auto against Baron dealt 7.5k damage Would never happen in a real game, and doesn't do anything for her ability to secure objectives (it's only % current health), so might not be OP

TehNACHOSep 17, 20151 votes

Really.

Wiki isn't accurate then. I realize this should be obvious but that is where I got my numbers from.

But yeah, we both agree it's still not a problem.