DoT mages are suppose to be more effective against tanks than burst mages

Derfel·Apr 7, 2017·78 votes·4,764 views

SO LETS INTRODUCE AN ITEM THAT COMPLETELY FUCKS THAT DYNAMIC UP HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm getting so sick of these reworks.

114 Comments

MakharyaApr 7, 201718 votes

The item reduce DoT and other sustain damage by 15% not 100%. There are two items that reduces total atk speed by 15% and still ADC melt tanks. It will be a birt more harder, but you'll still be the best mage against tank.

Voluug13Apr 7, 201712 votes

Dot/Sustain mages dont scale exponentially with stats like ADCs do.

15% on linear AP/mpen/cdr scaling is much drastic that 15% on expontential AD/AS/Crit/Arpen/LS scaling on adcs and other ad dps.

MakharyaApr 10, 20171 votes

In both case it's -15% damage of all the DPS.

I agree they have different scaling, but it don't change anything. If you want to resist them you have a 15% reduction.

Voluug13Apr 10, 20171 votes

Its not a 15% for both.

15% reduction for ALL magic damage, aka the total damage of the AP champion.

15% reduction for attack speed is only 15% less on one variable, not the final total dps of the AD champion.

A 15% reduction on one variable is completly different that one on the total one.

MakharyaApr 11, 20171 votes

Except that for auto all variable are link.

DPS is: ASADCrit. You can multiply everything by 0.85 or just one thing. It would be the same thing.

Yes ability aren't affected, but for mage it's not all their ability that are affected.

ChaoticPineconeApr 9, 20171 votes

Aside from a select few mages (Cass and Azir, maybe Corki and Kayle), most DoT mages arent melting tanks though. Anivia, Malz, Zyra, Swain, Singed, Akali, Brand, Taliyah, Teemo, A.Sol, Fiddle, Dinger, Kat, Karthus, Vlad, Rumble, Viktor...all these champions are okay into tanks, but arent tank killers.

Its an item that helps deal with the outlier cases that might completely screw over most of the DoT mages.

MakharyaApr 10, 20171 votes

If they aren't too dangerous to tank then the tank will simply not take the item as it's not really usefull for them. Even if they do it, it will be a not really efficient item for them and probably a bad choice (except if they are a lot of sustain damage mage).

Even if they aren't melting tanks but they are still better than burst mages.

ChaoticPineconeApr 10, 20171 votes

But thats the thing - it gives 300hp, 70 MR, and 10% CDR. Those as some pretty solid stats for an item (its the current raw stats of a Banshees with 10% CDR on top). Right now, I think the saving grace of Spirit Visage on tanks without some sort of inherent lifesteal is the CDR, since they dont really benefit from the increased healing. Youre giving the tanks or tankier champions without lifesteal an alternative high-MR item that gives the stats they really do want, along with an "icing on the cake" passive. It works best agasint DoT mages, but also is a good item against burst mages - not only do you get 300hp and 70MR to tank through the upfront burst, it also curbs the damage from the second or third rotation of spells.

If they lowered the stats to something like 55 MR with no CDR, I can see it being a niche item against DoTs. If Force of Nature still existed, it might be a niche item against DoTs. But with its current stats, its not only the highest-MR item in the game, its also going to have a DoT passive while having CDR. What magic-damage dealer wont it be good into?

MakharyaApr 11, 20171 votes

It wont affect burst mage at all (except some exception like syndra ult) (the passive) as the second rotation of spell need to come quickly (now 3 second).

Yes stats are good but look at randuin it's the best defense stats even without the AS reduction.

ChaoticPineconeApr 11, 20171 votes

70 MR and 300 HP wont affect burst mages at all?

Think of it this way - Randiuns is currently the best armor item in the game. The only reason you go Deadmans is if you have no real gapcloser and the only reason you go Sunfire is to clear waves. The 10% Crit reduction they added a few months back is icing on the cake - you see Randiuns in games agasint a non-crit ADC, because its just too good of an item. Thats how I see this item will be - the DoT damage reduction is icing on the cake. It will crowd out other tank MR options.

LongHair FoxApr 7, 201715 votes

The question is not: "should these be effective or not" but rather "how effective should these be". DoT mages at the moment is a bit too effective at killing front lines so they are tuning that down.

DerfelApr 7, 201733 votes

Except all DoT mages in the game currently suck dick but ok sure lets live that fantasy

LongHair FoxApr 7, 201718 votes

Cassio is a top tier pick in high level, azir is seeing pro play, fizz is good, karthus recently saw bannings in korea pro play, katarina recently got nerfed, taliya is seeing pro play, zyra and velkoz are top tier supports... I see plenty of champions this could keep in check. Besides if you can itemize against them, it means that they can be allowed to be stronger vs anyone that is not a tank.

LauchmelderApr 7, 201719 votes

Cass and Azir are DPS mages.

Sure, you can play Cass as a DoT mage (i play hybrid and one lategame Q on their carry means I got 50% of his HP), but overall she's more of a DPS mage.

LongHair FoxApr 7, 201710 votes

but the item works well against them too. Cass and azir are likely the ones getting hit the heaviest of those i listed.

LauchmelderApr 7, 20177 votes

Azir buffs will be obligatory

LongHair FoxApr 7, 201711 votes

Azir cannot be buffed for soloq without being broken in pro play. He needs a rework.

BlakiepugApr 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongHair Fox,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjprTTxV,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-07T14:12:15.497+0000)

Azir cannot be buffed for soloq without being broken in pro play. He needs a rework.

Tbh, Azir would probably be fine right now if they nerfed the actual reason he was strong to begin with instead of gutting everything in his kit that was fine as is and then nerfing what made him strong anyways.

LongHair FoxApr 7, 20174 votes

You do realize that azir right now is as strong as he can be right? If he gets stronger than this he becomes pick ban in pro play again. Anyway what do you think should be nerfed about him? What would allow for more buffs without destroying a core skill in azirs kit?

FairyfleurApr 7, 20175 votes

The problem isn't Taliyah being strong, it's just that everything better is being banned. That, and her utility.

LongHair FoxApr 7, 20174 votes

That was not my point though, I just pointed out that there are champions which this item is good against that are not bottom tier.

BlakiepugApr 7, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongHair Fox,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjprTTxV,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-04-07T10:06:35.574+0000)

Cassio is a top tier pick in high level, azir is seeing pro play, fizz is good, karthus recently saw bannings in korea pro play, katarina recently got nerfed, taliya is seeing pro play, zyra and velkoz are top tier supports... I see plenty of champions this could keep in check. Besides if you can itemize against them, it means that they can be allowed to be stronger vs anyone that is not a tank.

You're just naming AP midlaners. With the exception of Cassiopeia and Fizz, everyone you mention only has DoT through DFT. Plus the argument that, "OMG they picked an AP champion in the LCS" doesn't mean they are overpowered in and of itself.

LongHair FoxApr 7, 20172 votes

The item works on all of them since they all have a spell that hits mulitple times or like to spam the same spell multiple times. While appearing in pro play does not mean they are overpowered, it does mean that they are not trash tier in pro play.

BlakiepugApr 7, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongHair Fox,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjprTTxV,comment-id=00010000000000020000,timestamp=2017-04-07T18:53:29.300+0000)

The item works on all of them since they all have a spell that hits mulitple times or like to spam the same spell multiple times. While appearing in pro play does not mean they are overpowered, it does mean that they are not trash tier in pro play.

That's what we want though. The point isn't to nerf every champion until they are trash tier, so if a champion is balanced, there is no need to change them. And someone can correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I think you don't understand what DoT is. Think Ignite, Teemo poison, Brand burn, Malzahar space thingies. Getting hit with two Lux E's or Cassiopeia E's in a row is not DoT.

LongHair FoxApr 7, 20172 votes

I know what a dot it.... but you do realize we are talking about in item on the pbe that also works on repeated casts of the same spell instead of just dots right?

BlakiepugApr 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongHair Fox,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjprTTxV,comment-id=0001000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-07T19:07:14.273+0000)

I know what a dot it.... but you do realize we are talking about in item on the pbe that also works on repeated casts of the same spell instead of just dots right?

My mistake, I misread the item passive. You are right that it would affect all the champions you listed pretty heavily. Regardless though, I would still disagree that those champions are out of check. I honestly think they are all in a good spot right now while not being overbearing (let's not forget how long Syndra was queen of the mid lane). If any mid lane champion is too strong, I would say it is Orianna as we've being seeing her picked a ton in LCS and even first-picked quite a bit recently. But even then, this item doesn't affect Orianna and I don't think she's completely overbearing.

TeCoolMageApr 8, 20172 votes

5 seconds is pretty long so syndra, xerath and ziggs as well are going to be affected. It's not anti DoT or DPS, it's anti everything-but-short-ranged-burst like annie.

ChaoticPineconeApr 7, 20173 votes

No matter how popular they are, support Zyra, Velkoz, Brand, or Malz arent really going to be melting a tank unless they are massively fed. And while they might be top picks, they arent top picks because of their DoT damage to tanks. They arent killing frontlines.

Fizz is hardly a DoT. He is just an Assassin with delayed burst - kinda like Leblanc. Taliyah isnt a problem for being too effective damage-wise agasint a tank - her damage is just too low for someone so squishy (A.Sol is in the same boat). Swains in a good spot, but he isnt going to be melting tanks. He might be able to run them down over a long period of time, but it will take a while. None of them are obliterating frontines either.

As for Cassio and Azir (maybe Corki), the two who are actually threats to tanks who might buy the item, we dont even know if it works against them. "Taking magic damage from a spell or effect reduces all subsequent magic damage taken from _that _spell or effect by 15% for 5 seconds." Does Cassio's E spam count as each a separate spells or one spell cast over and over for the passive? Does Azir's soldier-autos count as one spell or as autos?

It seems to me that the picks that the passive is good against - the Malz space aids, the Singed poison, the Zyra plants, the Brand burn, the Teemo E and mushroom - arent threatening frontlines too hard. And if you buff them based on this item's existence, then they are even more of a threat to squishies who arent buying the item.

LongHair FoxApr 7, 20172 votes

We know that cassio e spam gets reduced. Rioters have already stated this. They have also stated that magic damage dealers are too effective at dealing with tanks.

SkyblazeHydraX3Apr 7, 201711 votes

It's almost like Riot wants people to be able to counter build based on the opponents capabilities.

I mean after all, Marskmen are supposed to excel at melting down the front line with a constant output of damage. item 3082 item 3143 item 3110

DerfelApr 7, 20178 votes

Are you high? Riot just gave ADCs and all ADs an item that costs 100 gold and removes 50% armor.

TheSnackenApr 7, 20179 votes

Last I checked, Last Whisper costs 1300g. Also, Attack Speed reductions still hurt.

WheatloafApr 7, 20172 votes

Plus, it's 45% bonus armor pen. Believe it or not, base armor actually puts in work.

ArakadiaApr 7, 20173 votes

It was probably just a typo, calm down. Nobody thinks LW costs 100g.

SpoofghoulApr 7, 20179 votes

meanwhile our brand support is out dpsing both adc's

such bandwagon

Supreme Senpai69Apr 7, 20174 votes

He's supposed to though. ADCs are for towers and objectives and tanks/late game. Brand has early damage af. But games don't go late game anymore :[

VekknaApr 7, 20178 votes

The item hard counters mages with any amount of multi-hit spells or spam spells, along with Liandry's burn. I mean, we're talking about a huge, indiscriminate blow to mages regardless of whether they're even doing well right now.

And we know what's going to happen here. Divers, skirmishers, and juggernauts are going to pick this up and be even harder to kill for mages than they already are.

Here's a list of what gets fucked by this item:

Ahri QWR Akali R Amumu W Anivia QR Annie QR AurelionSol Passive Azir AA Passive, R Cassiopeia QWE Corki QR Diana WR Elise Spiderlings Evelynn Q Fiddlesticks WER Heimerdinger QWR Karma W, R+Q Karthus Q, aura Katarina ER, Passive Kayle E Kennen R Leblanc E Malzahar WER MissFortune ER Mordekaiser R Morgana WR Rumble Everything Ryze Everything Sejuani W Singed Q Swain QER Syndra QR Taliyah QW Teemo R Velkoz Passive, WR Viktor ER Vladimir QWR Zyra Plants

CatastropApr 7, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Q, R (not sure if R is coded as one damage packet or multi-hit)

Yep it's a multi-hit, as a matter of fact, it's coded as several individual spells.

Baron of BreadApr 7, 20173 votes

Anivia: Her Q is multi-hit if you are good.

Diana: Her W is multi-hit.

Fiddle: His Q is his fear. If you want his Dark Wind (bird throw) that is his E.

Katarina: Her passive doesn't do any damage, her E isn't multi-tic. You should count one or the other because of the passive allowing spam with kills.

Kennen: His E can only damage someone once per cast.

Mordekaiser: His W is also a DoT, and it might also apply to his Q.

Swain: W is Nevermove, if you wanted Torment (his other DoT), that is his E.

Teemo: His E is also a DoT.

VekknaApr 7, 20172 votes

Edited. =)

Kat's passive is also the dagger pickup damage, which is typically twice per fight. E cooldown gets a huge refund on dagger pickup, so it's used 2-3 times within a couple seconds.

Teemo's E isn't considered a spell or spell effect. It's an on-hit effect, which is why the hit and dot damage do not proc Liandry's, Rylai's, Deathfire, Luden's, etc.

Baron of BreadApr 7, 20172 votes

I thought the dagger damage was part of her W, my bad.

CatastropApr 7, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjprTTxV,comment-id=00070002,timestamp=2017-04-07T16:24:25.007+0000)

Katarina: Her passive doesn't do any damage

Do we play the same champion?

TeCoolMageApr 8, 20172 votes

The nerf to anivia Q multi hit is triggering me so hard

Here's some extras

Zyra's plants are her passive
Ryze passive, R and W aren't used multiple times. It's only EQ
Karthus aura is his E I'm fairly certain
Sona Q
Teemo's E is also nerfed, I'm very sure it affects all magic damage since they specify 'or effect', so it includes things like Malzahar W, Mordekaiser Q and Shen Q as well.
Xerath (QR), Ziggs (QE), Orianna (QW and passive) and Lux (passive E) are all affected due to their poke spells encouraging them to build CDR, they'll cast their main spell within 5 seconds of each other like Ryze, Annie, Evelynn and Syndra.
Some non-mages like Mundo, Zac, Rammus, Shyvana, Udyr and Volibear are affected as well
R+E LeBlanc of course
Soraka QE feelsbadman
Nidalee traps tickle less
Nunu E
Leona passive
Kassadin R
Fizz W
Kog'maw RW
Lissandra Q
Ivern WR
Maybe Azir should have W instead of AA
I think MF ult is physical with AP scaling and only her E is magical
Cho'gath E
Ekko Q
Varus W
Viktor Q is multihit
Thresh E
Zilean Q+W

Wînter FoxApr 7, 20177 votes

They basically deleted Malzahar already. I'm seeing a trend here

Big LincolnApr 7, 20171 votes

mages mad they can actually be counterbuilt now LUL

DerfelApr 7, 201720 votes

Do you just enjoy going into every thread and saying stupid shit?

Big LincolnApr 7, 20175 votes

I enjoy DPS mages having a counter item that matters

you should be glad too, now buffs for Azir and Karthus can be justified

Voluug13Apr 7, 20174 votes

Karthus I can believe, but Azir? Azir was nerfed numerically a dozen times but it didnt stick, he is broken because of his mobility/utility/cc, not his damage.

TyrekGoldenspearApr 7, 20171 votes

His mobility is nothing compared to other mobile mages, his utility is a grand total of one weak slow on Q and a knockback on his ultimate, not impressive CC at all.

He isn't picked for his CC, he's picked for his late game damage.