"Malz players who plan ahead will still be able to make some sick space-crab plays"
Who the fuck are you kidding? Your balance team is a sad joke.
Who the fuck are you kidding? Your balance team is a sad joke.
We don't give a fuck about the voidlings and never did, give us old malz back, give us old space aids back. Nobody wanted his shitty passive on a main ability.
sadly, there were a lot of people that wanted "his playstyle to revolve more around his voidlings" needless to say, those weren't malzahar mains, but people that maybe tried him a few times and then abandoned him. Afterwards coming to leave their input. And riot took it as legit
I was unfortunately one of these people.
Don't worry though now the tank update is going to take vicious revenge on me.
its not really your fault guys, riot is known to not give a shit about champion mains and their perspective almost every single champion rework (if not all of them) was/is hated by mains of the pre-rework version. I know that I still to this day, despise the fiora rework, and i've abandoned malzahar (its not like you could've played him post rework anyway, banned or picked by everyone, due to OPness in numbers)
tho, thx for admitting your small wrong contribution in all of this I just hope that morgana will never change. She's just perfect gameplay wise.
Tell me about it. Way back in the Times of Old, I used to main pre-rework Karma mid lane. People never expected the Shield-bombs and heal-bombs.
One thing I really don't agree with: Fiora is masterpiece among reworks. Before she was toxic stat-check with no counterplay if countering and no options when countered. They made it so now she actually has an outplay potential from both sides and addad really interesting (Vitals and Parry are now very interactive) mechanics, while keeping the feel - by that I refer to the ultimate, she still dashes around her opponent and looks really badass while doing so. I feel like she must be hated just because she now requires a mechanical skill.
And no, I don't even play her, she counters all my toplane mains.
question, did you play main fiora pre rework? i believe the answer is no
she was as much of a stat check as garen is. Or any other champions without skill shots. I'm sry, but that argument holds nothing for me. Everyone and everything is a stat check. Fiora pre rework had plenty of counterplay, such as use shields and negate her ult entirely. Her ult even if it stacked on 5 target with hydra proc on all 5 targets would do LESS DAMAGE than a fizz E on all targets. You had full control of where she would land after ult. Building ninja tabi would've reduced her entire damage by 10% and many more.
Its the current fiora as a champion itself good? not really, to much true damage. Once they remove the true damage from her kit, she's going to be fine. But I'll never EVER like her. She's hard to play, she's gimmicky, once her numbers are a bit out of the water she's overpowered as fuck and nobody can face her.
And its VERY VERY VERY different from what she used to be, aside from the true damage and harder to play (for the new version). Before I could't parry CC, I didn't have escape in lanes, most top laners were soft counters (pre rework fiora only countered teemo, jayce, gnar and top lane adcs), the others where skill match-ups. And then where phanteon, malphite, maokai, jax and shen which you couldn't touch tbh. Its totally different. lil edit: did I win my lane with pre rework fiora vs jax, phanteon and so on? yes, I did. But I had to outplay the living hell out of them, I had to win every trade, I had to be better in every aspect than them in lane to win it. It was still fun. Current fiora is not fun for me to play (yes, i tried a lot).
You can love the new fiora. Nothing wrong with it. She's however an entirely different champion, everything except her name changed. EVERYTHING. Like, I love the post rework MF. But I seen plenty of pre rework MF that hate the rework. It changed their hero in a way that no longer pleases them. Reworks always do that. Because riot takes feedback from everyone else and ignore champion mains who actually understand that hero properly.
If stat-checking kit holds nothing for you, then you have no idea about game health. Yes, I did not play pre-rework Fiora and I had a reason - let me quote myself: "I would never touch that toxic bullshit ever." The skill you are talking about entirely revoles around tracking enemies cooldowns and knowing when to go in and if you have enough damage to kill them and to know how to kite, which are the basics of every champion, otherways her kit was "click on them with all your spells and kill them or die". As you said, there were some things you could do against her, like standing grouped and let the damage soak, but that's another toxic design, because it removed Fiora player's agency from the game. Not talking about her unbearable snowball-depending playstyle, which means if she's been fed, she destroyed the whole team with that ult so the counterplay went away again (except for having Zhonya's) (your sheild argument is countering/countered issue again, not every champion has a shield), but if she was behind, she was so useless she could AFK aswell.
The Vital mechanic is not gimmicky at all, it is perfectly explained in her lore and pushes the swordsman theme to it's limit, couldn't be better. The true damage and heal is a reward for hitting it, which is reasonable. There's only one thing that diverges her theme and that's the ult heal, but I was not able to come up with any better reward for hitting all Vitals which wouldn't be toxic, except the heal effecting only Fiora, but this way it gives her a teamfight presence and team utility I guess.
Overpowered as fuck when her numbers are high? Easy treatment, lower them - which wouldn't be possible with the old Fiora, that'S the flaw of the stat-checking kit, if the numbers are high, champion's broken, if the numbers are low, champion's useless.
You enjoy her less than pre-rework because now she needs skill? Yeah, that's basically what I said in the first comment. The problem is Riot may understand that you enjoy her, but I'm sure every Kassadin main enjoyed Kassadin with his silence. Or LeBlanc. Or release Xin and Zyra. It's nice you enjoy something, but if it's toxic it can't stay because noone else has fun in the game.
Fiora is still the same champion: AA based skirmisher with a dash that rewards agressive usage, parrying ability, AA enhancer and an ultimate which let's her jumping around her target to deal high amount damage and making her survive in a fight. She was just modernized, rework gave her options and interactive gameplay (which "having a shield" isn't) and removed toxic stat-checking (thus unbalancable) and counterpick-revolving elements.
every melee champion is a stat check
fiora is not the same, never will be the same now she has lane safety now she has true damage now she can dash anywhere she wants now she has chase potential now she had more than auto attacks for damage (hello a passive that's not worthless) now she has weave push without items (W) now she has cc now she has guaranteed crit
she changed' in vast ways, she got deleted and replaced. You can't see that as you didn't bother to play her.
again, all melee's are stat checks. That sort of argument holds no values all adcs are stat checks, barring ezreal. EVERYTHING IN THIS FUCKING GAME THAT'S NOT A SKILL SHOT IS STATS STICK
But you can beat a stats stick with CC and strategy, I enjoy her less post rework because: I can't double dash anymore to close 1200 gap in less than a second I can actually block cc and skill shots, that's total bullshit My early game is now weak, but i have escapes to make up for it. I don't like that.
I liked my extra 20-30 AD from her W passive. I liked having easy last hits. I liked having an early game. I liked having to properly execute my combo to win trades instead of just pressing Q. I liked being able to 1v2 the enemy top laner and their jungler if they both came on to me when i had a big minion wave. I liked that even if I was behind, I could QQR and do some damage to the enemy team before dying. I liked being able to cancel turret shots thx to my R and have dives be executed properly. I liked the pressure of having no escapes in lane, despite a strong early game. I liked how hard she snowballed. I liked that I could 1v1 every adc or mage in the game around same gold (even if the adc was ahead by like 2000g) I liked how a properly used zhonias, pool, shield, heal would counter my ult, forcing me to use it smart. I liked how when the enemy was a top lane fiora, I could just build ninja tabi and have a relaxed laning phase. I liked parrying renekton extra W damage or nasus's Q. I liked waiting in the shadows for when the adc is left alone to strike at them. I liked how she didn't have skillshots yet was still a good champ. I liked how I was laughing at Ezreals that were E+flash away from me when I had my ult started on them, running away from their team which could've saved them (if you were away from your team, my ult kept hitting you instead of changing targets). Just showing how little knowledge they had on fiora.
She required more skills than other champions precisely because she had no CC or utility. She required more skill than most champions because most top lane match-ups were counters. Or the way you put it, their stat stick was larger than yours.
And yes, I like easy to play champions. But I don't play Yi for example. Nor do I play Darius or Renekton. Or trynda. Fiora was my dear, and she's gone. You can hate her all you want. The new one is totally different from every point of view except the name. You can argue it fits the lore better, I'd argue that the lore changed with the rework................ you can argue that it fits her title better, I'll argue that she still isn't the best 1v1 hero in the game, and she will never be.
I agree with you, I used to main Fiora back before the rework. Even if you could say her theme was the same, and even if her role/niche was the same, the playstyle completely changed, people don't understand this. I couldn't bring myself to like her again either.
I wouldn't say that simple champs are necessarily easy just because they lack mechanics. I prefer champs like old Fiora because I prefer relying on game knowledge and decisionmaking; strategy and tactics. Those things are greatly diminished with the new Fiora, replaced by mechanics I can't be bothered with, like you said; just look at the new q, it isn't as restricted in its use anymore and thus you need less knowledge or planning to get it to do what you wanted.
For a long time, a lot of people have been thinking that skill is all about mechanically outplaying your opponent, and not about analyzing a situation and planning ahead (like that Ezreal); how many times to you hear/see "outplayed" compared to the amount of times you see "outsmarted" (except for a post a bit below lol, although thats mostly sarcastic)? Partly because it's much harder to notice I suppose.
I'm not arguing whether a newly reworked champion is better or worse, not even if they are more or less healthy. What bothers me is that a champion will get reworked, without retaining the base playstyle, without retaining the same role or niche, sometimes (even though not always gameplay related) not even retain the same theme, and become an impostor. I can feel where you're coming from, I've been there multiple times.
and no champion in the game plays like original fiora.
the only one that's getting close is riven, and she's both mechanically difficult, very buggy (anti cc animation cancel), and with a bunch of mobility skills but shorter distance.
at least malza post rework still did damage with qer, but then they nerfed those damages down, now he's stuck on W only and that gets nerfed too. Cya malza.
Like you said, its not even if the rework is good or not. Its the original version that was loved by its mains, gone forever
sorry to butt in but.. what does 'stat check' mean? I feel like I should know but I don't remember what it stands for.
everything that doesn't have skill shots and will lose/win an a head to head combat situation. as riot's argument is "you can't avoid or outplay the damage"....... #most adcs and melee champions
that's why i've heavily pissed when i see this argument come by. XXXX is a stat's stick, xxxx is a stat check, you either have better stats or you die to it.... and so on. Afterall this game is a numbers game, ofc the better stats gonna win a 1v1 fight, even a 1v5 if you guys don't use your stuff properly (or its post rework rengar with his awesome W)
And yes, this is one of the main reasons offered for fiora's rework. Together with "her theme doesn't fit her playstyle", "she's not the best 1v1 champion". Jax still kills her 1v1 before and after rework >.<
Compared to a few of our recent updates, we launched Fiora pretty darn recently. Still, she’s one of them tricksy melee marksmen/fighter types who was supposed to be a fleet-footed fencing duelist, but who, once she had a few items, could just lunge up to the other team’s squishies and smack ‘em for a quick and easy - and unstoppable - kill. That was her single gear, really, and because Fiora was only good at killing, when she didn't have the damage to do her single job, she couldn’t do much of anything.
Taken from Fiora rework release, bolded is what screams stat check.
Fiora was literally the textbook definition of stat check,and it was the very reason why she was reworked.
Either she outstatted you and wrecked your entire team or she didn't and was completely useless. Are there other cases of champions relying on statcheck? Sure, but Fiora pre-rework was the queen of stat check champions.
You may not like her post-rework, but she hands down in a much healthier state then she was before, if you disagree then I'm sorry but you know very little about game balance. Before either she stomped or she was completely useless since all she brought to the table was damage and more damage, this is bad game design.
Now she has utility and tools which allows her not only to contribute in any situation, but also to act as leverage points for if Fiora becomes too UP or OP.
That was her single gear, really, and because Fiora was only good at killing, when she didn't have the damage to do her single job, she couldn’t do much of anything.
That's wrong. Due to how her ultimate worked. She could: a) sock cc needed to lock her down to stop her b) use ult and do some damage, even if its not 600 damage done randomly (like 100 damage to everyone in the enemy team), still nothing compared to khartus's ult damage wise, but that 600 damage can swing the team fight in your favor or not.
Her job was to do damage, and she was good at it. Everyone is a stat check in this fucking game except skill shots champions. Get this thou your skull. EVERYTHING, THAT'S WHY YOU BUY ITEMS, THAT'S WHY THIS GAME HAS SNOWBALL MECHANIC. THIS IS NOT OVERWATCH, NOR COUNTERSTRIKE. Stats matter.
And no, old fiora was never OP or UP. She always had balanced win ratio, and was played by around 2-3% of the population across all elos. She wasn't as popular as lee sin or lucian. But she wasn't UP. Nor was she OP. When something's op, look at it poping in lcs like no tomorrow. Fiora was NEVER PLAYED IN LCS BEFORE REWORK. That's because SHE WAS BALANCED AND NOT OVERPOWERED.
Current Fiora is a design that's as unhealthy as it can get. Insane mobility. True damage, %max hp damage true damage actually, heal. Massive aoe heal. The moment a mastery or one of her current core items (BC, Hydra, etc) gets a little buff. She is gona be pick or ban, skyrocket to that stage again.
You probably didn't even saw worlds post rework. You probably didn't even watch the first season after 2015 worlds. Fiora and GP's reworks are faliures. Small buffs make them overpowered. Little nerfs make them "meh, I could just play riven or camille or irelia instead". Rework fiora is irelia.2.0. Q is gap closer which can be used multiple times. W is CC stun if used properly. (irelia E). E is atk steroid (irelia W passive), and her passive is similar to irelia's W active, true damage and heal. They only differ ultimate wise. And they complained that they don't want overlapping champions with graves and lucian hahahaha. What a bunch of hypocrites.
Well, yeah.
Prior to the rework, what did Malz do? Push with his spaceaids. Ult anyone that gets close enough with the Aids and W on them (then Q if they were still alive). The voidlings were an afterthought, at least for me - if they spawned and attacked the ulted target, good. If not, its not going to change the fact that I'm still going to ult that Yasuo as soon as he jumps in - I'm not going to think about whether or not my voidlings were being used to their maximum potential before ulting if i had the chance to ult a carry. It was a fairly one-dimensional playstyle that many thought was boring.
Problem is that his rework didnt really do much to address his problems (one dimmensional playstyle). All it did was make his one dimensional playstyle more obnoxious.
what was his playstyle before: anti assassin on mid lane, an alternative to picking Lulu or Lissandra easy to farm with (lv3 e, just like morgana's lv3 w, would've killed the caster minions alone over time) lane bully in good match-ups by maxing Q, if you were confident enough good lane priority due to being able to push most of the time despite all this, he had no mobility skills, no defenses, making him unsafe and easy to gank, requiring the player to think about his (or her) positioning and aggression during the laning phase more than a syndra or cassio or azir, etc very high kill pressure post lv6 due to ultimate allowing easy set-ups for ganks your voildling passive helped you win trades in mid, or push the wave hard.
my favorite thing was his wave push ability with his passive voildling and E for laning phase.
Post laning phase, he transitioned into a tanky control mage. As the general build involved the RoA and Rylays. His W creating a dangerous slow field on the ground (not as strong as viktor's gravity field). Dangerous especially for tanks as if they dared to pass over and might have gotten randomly cced by anyone in malzahar's the team. They would've lost a large chuck of their hp, as it was %max hp dot damage. He was also controlling the battle field with well placed silence fields which, pre rework, didn't just silence but actually did damage. An ADC would lose 50% of their hp if they wouldn't respect malza's zone. Allowing him to have a degree of control over fights, slowing the entry of adcs and mages after their front line engaged (assuming they didn't engage on malza).
His other role post lane phase was, similar to Lulu. Protecting the ADC. Even if the enemy had a feed darius, yi, fiora, phanteon, etc. If they didn't work together with their team, malzahar would have punished that. By instantly locking down that enemy and him together with the adc would burst that target down in his suppress time frame. If they had QSS you would've used E for initial slow and kiting before trying to suppress them.
The difference to this post rework malzahar is that most of his damage comes from his W, his E and Q and even R do very little damage to the point its not even worth building AP for them, but you want to spam em. That's why the build switched from RoA first item to Morello first item. His non W spells became utility only ... which prior to rework, it was only the case for jungle malza. But jungle malza's voidlings were actually stronger and you couldn't do anything without em. And that gave him an alternative position and buildpath. There was even a dia jungle malza main making videos to prove it works at high elo too.
As for one dimensional. Every.......single...........character...........in ........... this game is "one or two dimension playstyle only". Due to the fact that only 1 type of playstyle is more efficient than the other. That's why, despite the fact that Ahri can be played ADC, you will only see her as a Kite Mage or Assassinish. Almost never building adc unless the players are randomly having fun.
What the rework actually did is: make all his spells except W utility. put all power in W, meaning he has less needs for levels than other roles. Usually mid and top are first to 18 due to being solo laners, rework malza has no need for that give him a very very very strong passive (which i said from the start). He receives banshee's passive from minute zero. It was WAY STRONGER post rework before it hit very hard with the nerf bat. The reason this is a problem is that for both summoners/invokers (which is the post rework playstyle) or control mages (pre rework playstyle), their weakness is if someone gets inside their "zone". When they get up close and personal. And his passive negates the possible CC to allow you to get close to him, and bring him close to you.
Classic Anime for proving point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiocmKn9nQM strong when the enemy is in control zone, weak when the enemy gets in
Calling him as a "only one dimensional" just proves how little time you've spend with pre rework malzahar.
Yes, I know what Malz did prior to his rework. I played quite a bit of him. You can try and argue against it, but his playstyle was one-dimensional.
Now, I'm not talking about builds - I'm talking about in-game play. Ahri, as you mentioned, can play as a kite mage or assassin. She can choose to use her R aggressively to engage, she can choose to use it to kite back. She can use her charm to CC the backline or peel the divers. She can use her Q for burst against squishies or to deal true damage to tanks. All these tools allow her to play in multiple ways, regardless of your build.
For the others you mentioned, lets go through them too:
Syndra - she can use her single target damage for bursting down carries, or she can ult the frontline and E for the teamwide AoE stun. She can pick up orbs or she can pick up monsters. She needs to make a choice sometimes - do you want to ult someone in range with only 4 orbs, or do you save it until youre juggling 7? Do you want to Ult-Stun, or do you think you can get a long range stun off and ult after?
Azir - do you attempt a shuffle or play as an AP Marksman at max range? Do you use your E for the shield or to put space between you and the enemy? Do you Q to get your soldiers to your enemy, or do you try to place a W in range so you can save your Q for when they try to escape (or if you need to escape?) Edit - do you play him "bursty" or do you play him DPS?
Cassio - I'll give you this one. She is pretty one-dimmensional, even though the rework tried to change her reliance on her poison. Although you have the option of not poisoning before using your E, you always will if you can.
But what choices did pre-rework Malzahar make? In lane, he pushed with his E and Q (with a little help with autos before your first back). His W was only useful in very specific situations, so I didnt even take it until level 5. There was no real choice to make - if the enemy was stupid enough to walk up for me to E them, I would. If not, I just pushed with zero interaction with the enemy laner (since I played Malz as a safe laner into assassins).
Now he still has very high kill pressure at 6, since his ult is still pretty great at setting up ganks. He is still able to ult the Darius/Fiora/Yi/Pantheon thats diving your carries. If he did 50% of an ADCs health beforehand with a Q, he does 40% now. But now there is an element you have to account for, since his voidlings do so much damage, you have to choose - do you want to wait until a few more voidings spawn to do more damage, or do you need the instant supression?
I'm not saying that his rework was a success. He still has the same basic problems. But it was a step in making him more interactive.
Problem is that his rework didnt really do much to address his problems (one dimmensional playstyle). All it did was make his one dimensional playstyle more obnoxious.
That is basically the rule of class updates and many reworks. They "want" to give champions counterplay, a niche or otherwise fix problems, but they never actually touch the problem.
For example Ryze is still a point'n'click stat-check champion.
Katarina now has tons of AoE (picking a dagger is an instant version her ult doing 1/3 damage) and nearly unconditional blinks.
Youre taking the worst cases and applying them to the whole.
Darius was a success. Gangplank was a success. Fiora was a success. Soraka was a success. Quinn is debatable (successful, but now unfun to play agasint as a meta top as opposed to being unfun to play agasint as a niche top). Yorick, Taric, Warwick, Rengar, Talon, Graves, Vlad, Poppy, Sion, and Nidalee were successful from a gameplay point of view (they became more interactive to play and play against, but their numbers are just too strong or too weak).
The reworks Id put an asterisk next to are Akali, Cass, Malz, Morde, Ryze, Leblanc, FIzz and Shen. I dont know if they became more fun to play or play against. But for the most part, Id say that a lot of their reworks were pretty successful.
Youre taking the worst cases and applying them to the whole.
If a champion after a rework requires to be nerfed so many times, that they are either completely or nearly useless, than it is not a success.
And that's most of the reworks.
Taric is niche and underpowered, Warwick for now is an unknown for me, Yorick is niche, Rengar is effectively unchanged (Geez, now you get a guaranteed crit on the closest champion while ulting!), Talon is still a stat-check with a new gimmick, Vlad got so many gimmicks that they made him even worse to balance than before, Poppy was initially an unkillable cancer (haven't seen her in a while), Sion counterplays himself and Nidalee is at the bottom of the food chain and Riot gives no fucks doing anything about it.
Youre confusing balance with successful reworks.
A champion can be perfectly balanced but still be on the table for a rework, because Riot takes more than just balance into account. They seem to be on a trend of creating kits that are multi faceted, more interactive for the player, and more interactive to play against. They create kits that contain more options for counterplay and also contain more options to counterplay against.
Whether or not their numbers are balanced is a different thing. Any champion, from one dimmensional like Garen to having many options like Riven, can be broken or useless by numbers alone. However, what makes a champion multi facted or one dimensional is usually their kit. Riots reworks are aimed at making champions have more options, so when I say they are "successful", they create meaningful options for split-second decisions or skill order that have to be taken into account depending on the situation instead of "run at them and kill them if you reach them".
You are wrong thinking balance and reworks can be looked at separately.
Look at how "successful" Vlad rework is: If he can hit an enemy with empowered Q they lose. If he can't he is useless. How Riot can balance it? They are making base Q stronger while making empowered Q weaker, so the ultimate outcome becomes pre-rework Q. Sure to an extend his E is better, but because it can be body-blocked, it must be stronger and currently it can 50-0 a squish. You call that a success?
Is a rework introduces more problems than it fixes, it's a failure.
A small number of problems can obviously be dealt with with number changes alone, but majority of them are problems at the very core. Example: Syndra's Force of Will multi-throw passive. There was no way to balance that concept without a full scale rework, so it was removed and replaced with something that can be balanced.
It was successful in that it turned Vlad into a very choice-oriented champion.
If you go for the safe lane (Spirit Visage) you can push and farm easily against mages, but have low damage for early fights. If you go for a more aggressive option, youre pretty squishy. I mean, Old Vlad's kit was stupid. It was a good-in-theory interaction with his stacking E - do you up front damage for a full health bar? But in practice, you just walked around with a fully stacked E healing off anything you can once you got a WoTA.
Reworks are not failures because they introduce more problems than they fix. Reworks are failures when they fail to address the goals of the rework All of Riot's reworks will potentially introduce more problems than they fix, since all their reworks are about giving more depth to a champion. Every single layer of depth is going to be another potential problem. If you want a boring/stagnent, but a perfectly balanced game, Riot would change every champion's kit into something like Annie and Garen.
If you go for the safe lane (Spirit Visage) you can push and farm easily against mages, but have low damage for early fights.
Why is this even an argument here?
He could do that before and it has nothing to do with his kit.
It was a good-in-theory interaction with his stacking E - do you up front damage for a full health bar?
You are confusing what he can do with what he could do.
His E never did that much damage.
It was more of a way to increase his healing that to do damage with it.
But in practice, you just walked around with a fully stacked E healing off anything you can once you got a WoTA.
Now that Gunblade has the same effect WotA did, the execution is no different if you buy it. Except worse, because of his absurd heal.
Reworks are not failures because they introduce more problems than they fix. Reworks are failures when they fail to address the goals of the rework.
If their goal is to "add more interactions" then basically every rework is successful. Because that's going for quantity over quality.
If you want a boring/stagnent, but a perfectly balanced game, Riot would change every champion's kit into something like Annie and Garen.
A perfectly balanced game would require for all champions to be exactly the same and the map to be mirrored. That's not what anybody is asking for.
Plus you're pulling a strawman here.
Why is this even an argument here? He could do that before and it has nothing to do with his kit.
No, he couldnt clear waves with his E with a Spirit Visage rush prior to his rework. Allowing his abilities to scale with his health gave him a lot more options. Old Vlad never rushed Spirit Visage - it just didnt work, since his damage and his natural sustain relied on his AP.
You are confusing what he can do with what he could do. His E never did that much damage. It was more of a way to increase his healing that to do damage with it.
Thats exactly right, and thats exactly the problem. He just spammed it to keep it at 4 stacks. There was no real thought process in whether or not you wanted to fight at full stacks or not - after an item or two you just always kept it at full stacks, which did nothing for interactive gameplay except hurt your hands.
Now that Gunblade has the same effect WotA did, the execution is no different if you buy it. Except worse, because of his absurd heal.
Aside from the fact that Gunblade doesnt give CDR (which Vlad likes), costs almost 33% more (2300 vs 3400), and, you know, the component (Hextech Revolver) doesnt give Spellvamp anymore, so youre a sitting duck until you invest the full amount of the item. Plus, WoTA's heals were based on pre-mitigation damage, while Gunblade is postmitigation damage.
They are two very different items.
If their goal is to "add more interactions" then basically every rework is successful. Because that's going for quantity over quality.
No, not really. Its not just about interactions - its about meaningful interactions and meaningful counterplay. What meaningful interactions did Shaco gain in his rework? How about Brand? Skarner? And thats why I said Malz's rework wasnt a complete success - it gave more interactions, but failed to really give him any meaningful changes to his one dimensional playstyle.
A perfectly balanced game would require for all champions to be exactly the same and the map to be mirrored. That's not what anybody is asking for.
Again, exactly right. People dont want a boring game. They want interaction. Old Malz didnt really give you much.
No, he couldnt clear waves with his E with a Spirit Visage rush prior to his rework. Allowing his abilities to scale with his health gave him a lot more options. Old Vlad never rushed Spirit Visage - it just didnt work, since his damage and his natural sustain relied on his AP.
His maxed E dealt from 120 to 320 base damage based on rank and had 4.5 second cooldown. That's plenty to clear waves.
Thats exactly right, and thats exactly the problem. He just spammed it to keep it at 4 stacks. There was no real thought process in whether or not you wanted to fight at full stacks or not - after an item or two you just always kept it at full stacks, which did nothing for interactive gameplay except hurt your hands.
Pressing E once every 9 seconds. Hurting hands. How about playing Cassiopeia and pressing E 9 times a second?
And where's the thought process now? You charge E to the max, unless you can kill them with less. No, the idea behind changing it was to make it possible to miss or counterplay it without being Fizz.
Aside from the fact that Gunblade doesnt give CDR (which Vlad likes), costs almost 33% more (2300 vs 3400), and, you know, the component (Hextech Revolver) doesnt give Spellvamp anymore, so youre a sitting duck until you invest the full amount of the item.
I don't disagree the build path is worse than WotA, but the idea was always to heal more.
Plus, WoTA's heals were based on pre-mitigation damage, while Gunblade is postmitigation damage.
Holy crap, you're serious. Gunblade was literally given WotA's passive.
No, not really. Its not just about interactions - its about meaningful interactions and meaningful counterplay. What meaningful interactions did Shaco gain in his rework? How about Brand? Skarner? And thats why I said Malz's rework wasnt a complete success - it gave more interactions, but failed to really give him any meaningful changes to his one dimensional playstyle.
Shaco gained none. Brand gained none. Skarner gained none. LeBlanc gained none. Rengar gained none. Katarina lost most.
Again, exactly right. People dont want a boring game. They want interaction. Old Malz didnt really give you much.
People also want fair games and don't want to see their champions ruined for no reason (not "not reworked", but "reworked parts that didn't need it").
You can't just do whatever the fuck you want for the sake of "making it interesting".
For example it's not interesting when games are decided in 10 minutes and last 25 minutes on average.
His maxed E dealt from 120 to 320 base damage based on rank and had 4.5 second cooldown. That's plenty to clear waves.
Not when you max Q and not when you dont buy any AP. Apparently you never really played Vlad pre rework trying to rush Spirit Visage, cause he had a lot of trouble clearing waves with no AP and a rank 1 E. He also had a lot of trouble staying healthy while doing it.
Pressing E once every 9 seconds. Hurting hands. How about playing Cassiopeia and pressing E 9 times a second?
*when there is a target around that you can attack. Cass isnt walking back to lane pressing her E for a buff, is she?
What a stupid comment.
And where's the thought process now? You charge E to the max, unless you can kill them with less. No, the idea behind changing it was to make it possible to miss or counterplay it without being Fizz.
Which makes him more interactive, both for the player and against the player. Thats my point.
I don't disagree the build path is worse than WotA, but the idea was always to heal more.
So then dont compare the two saying they are essentially the same.
Holy crap, you're serious. Gunblade was literally given WotA's passive.
Apparently the idea of premitigation damage and postmitigation damage got lost on you. Healing based on damage dealt is a lot lower than healing based on raw damage dealt. Guess which one is stronger?
Shaco gained none. Brand gained none. Skarner gained none. LeBlanc gained none. Rengar gained none. Katarina lost most.
Leblanc gained a lot. Rengar gained some. Katarina gained some. But we arent talking about those champions. We are talking about Malz, and whether he gained more meaningful interactions or not.
People also want fair games and don't want to see their champions ruined for no reason (not "not reworked", but "reworked parts that didn't need it").
And people dont want to face boring statcheck champions.
You can't just do whatever the fuck you want for the sake of "making it interesting".
For example it's not interesting when games are decided in 10 minutes and last 25 minutes on average.
Nothing to do with this conversation buddy. Thats a whole different discussion.
Not when you max Q and not when you dont buy any AP. Apparently you never really played Vlad pre rework trying to rush Spirit Visage, cause he had a lot of trouble clearing waves with no AP and a rank 1 E. He also had a lot of trouble staying healthy while doing it.
You'd be surprised.
*when there is a target around that you can attack. Cass isnt walking back to lane pressing her E for a buff, is she?
What a stupid comment.
You are arguing that pressing a button once every 10 seconds is hurtful for your finger.
Don't you dare labelling anything as "stupid".
Which makes him more interactive, both for the player and against the player. Thats my point.
So it changed from "don't be in melee range" to "have a minion in front of Vlad".
So then dont compare the two saying they are essentially the same.
I never said the items are the same. I said the result after buying them is the same.
Humph. You'd think that a native speaker would be able to read between the lines.
Leblanc gained a lot. Rengar gained some. Katarina gained some. But we arent talking about those champions. We are talking about Malz, and whether he gained more meaningful interactions or not.
Funny. You were the one who derailed by mentioning Shaco and Brand.
And people dont want to face boring statcheck champions.
Guess what. They are still stat checking after their reworks.
Nothing to do with this conversation buddy. Thats a whole different discussion.
Half of the stuff you're saying "has nothing to do with this discussion". This is a thread about Malzahar, so why are you still responding to my Vlad comments?
You'd be surprised.
No, I wouldnt be. Cause I've actually tried it. I even bought spellvamp quints to try and skip a first item WoTA. It just didnt work out as well.
You are arguing that pressing a button once every 10 seconds is hurtful for your finger.
Don't you dare labelling anything as "stupid".
You dont get it. I dont know if I can explain it any better.
Lets try one more time: pressing a button for the sake of pressing a button is stupid if there are no meaningful choices associated with that button. Vlad essentially walked around with 4 E stacks for most of the game - no meaningful choice, youre weaker without it, and there was no benefit not to.
You might as well just give him the buff full time cause thats what it was used for. There was no meaningful choice to his spamming E - it was before a fight, during a fight, after a fight, when pushing, when harassing, when walking, etc. The only thing his E-stacking mechanism did was make you press the button more times. There was no real "choice" associated with it.
So it changed from "don't be in melee range" to "have a minion in front of Vlad".
I never said the items are the same. I said the result after buying them is the same.
Wow, okay - after this right here, I'm done. This is what you said:
Now that Gunblade has the same effect WotA did, the execution is no different if you buy it. Except worse, because of his absurd heal.
No, the execution is very different. It was very different costs, buildpaths, and even benefits with the item purchase. And the result really isnt the same, because premitigation heal is different from postmitigation heals.
If youre just going to go back on everything you said so you can think youre right, I'm done. I refuse to try and talk sense into an idiot.
Not even close to most of the reworks. Here, let me remind you exactly how many times Riot has reworked champions, since your memory seems to only stretch back two years:
Tryndamere - AP Tryn cancer is gone. Rework successful. Jax - Managed to keep his identity even after dodge was completely removed from the game. Rework successful. Master Yi - % missing health scaling on Meditate made it infinitely more useful on AD Yi. Only 70% reset on kills instead of 100 took away press Q to Penta. No more AP Yi, no more random chance on Q to kill minions. Rework was phenomenal. Karma - Her old kit was incredibly confusing and no one played her. After her rework she built up enough of a following that people actually got angry and loud when Riot removed her shieldbomb. Rework is probably the best one done so far. Sion - His old kit was either AD or AP, but you felt like you were missing half the kit, and his infinite health scaling made you want him to be a tank but he had no tanking abilities. His new rework is super fun to play with a lot of skill expression. Rework successful. Tristana - She can attach her E to turrets now. How fucking awesome is that? Rework successful. Draven - Draven's old passive was toxic as hell. This one is pretty minor but I still count it as a rework because he got a completely brand new ability that changes the way people play Draven forever. Rework is good. Evelyn - Evelyn used to be stupidly ungodly the best champion in the entire game period. Then they removed her stun and her winrate fell through the floor until invisible pink wards were removed. Rework failure. Kassadin - Ninety fucking percent ban rate. Ninety percent. You think Ruot can't rework shit? People can play Kassadin now. That's a huge step up. Rework successful. Olaf - Absolutely dumpstered because of his successs in competitive play, took Riot two years to get him back to any sort of viability. Rework failure.
So yeah, you don't know what you're talking about.
Just like Kog'Maw mains figured out how to kite with W at 5AS. Those who picked Kog'Maw up a game or two are the ones that stood still while auto attacking. I mastered Kog'Maw but now he's really unrewarding to play as
What do you mean? Pressing R while your jungler goes ham on the enemy isnt a "sick play"?
malz players are just mad because they cant E the enemy adc to 20% hp and have to use their other abilities to refresh the E active to be usefull.
I was making a joke about how boring Malz is to play and play against
His E does no damage after rework. All your damage is from your voidlings.
What do you mean? Pressing R while your jungler goes ham on the enemy isnt a "sick play"?
#OUTSMARTED.
200 IQ
200 IQ
Basically the face of myself while ulting a yasuo or any assassin is identical to Sir Issac Newton himself. He has the certain stern WTF look being pissed after seeing something disgusting and awkward.
http://cdn8.openculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/30193908/isaac-newton-list-of-sins.jpg
I, on the other hand, have the face of Descartes, as I am confirmed once more that my huge ego is justified by my huge skills.
http://www.military-history.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Descartes.jpg
Back when Zed mid was still a threat, Zed R's you under turret. You R him right back. Outplayed bitch.
[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
It's a tactic that worked before for the balance team. Stroke the ego of players, so they start looking down on those complaining on changes, as a way to shut them up. Not sure if players got wiser or just tired of their shit, but anyway it doesn't work as well now.
So, you saying Riot are liberals and Malz mains are Trump supporters?
When Riot has a long history of having an attitude of an overbearing egotist afraid to the point of having the inability to admit fault or mistakes, glorifying what they've done and talking down to criticism, dismissing it as "WRONG" and insisting over and over that they know best with the subtle "believe me" message summary after an asinine change gets shoved through despite backlash...well, I think you might have it backwards.
Those things you mentioned have nothing to do with the post I responded to. Good to know your bias.
What exactly did your post even attempt to accomplish besides bringing random political crap that wasn't necessary, anyway? Just curious.
Not to mention that he's also a hypocrite. "Those things you mentioned have nothing to do with the post I responded to."
And that post had nothing to do with the subject matter. smh
Plays with Malz? The only "plays" there we're were placing the Voidlings to block skillshots but you nerfed that Rito. Thanks. Malz has no "plays" its EWWRQ
Revert Malz. I miss using his old W to zone
Please just revert Malz.
He had problems, but they were problems both sides understood and could play around. With Malz sucking at his intended role (killing people) in his intended lane (mid) so much that he is now being played support should be a wake up call for Riot to go back to square one.