Patchly reminder to Meddler that the support role isn't a dumpster for failed mage reworks

Derfel·Apr 5, 2017·250 votes·7,196 views

Revert the poorly thought out and poorly implemented rework that was completely derailed because David Capurro absolutely refused to admit that his new Malzahar passive was a stupid idea that served no purpose but to make the rework unbalanceable. You can even keep the mechanic where his E refreshes.

Shoutouts to who, even though he's now terrible mid thanks to the mage update, at least still retain some of his old self.

And now is getting another nerf on the PBE to his already useless in any lane but bot voidlings. Is it sad or funny that Riot considers things like or healthier for the game than their own miserable rework of

160 Comments

KoggyStyleApr 5, 201750 votes

ya i liked old malz better.

NichtHurzApr 5, 20178 votes

I was just getting good with AD Malz jungle and then Riot did this...gutting every single playstyle he's had before the rework and forcing him into the support role where he's terrible as well now...

TupacoApr 5, 201714 votes

I like better as support tbh his ult was always bad mid because they could simply walk away from minions. 2v2 lanes work for his kit some much better

P0IS0N IVYApr 5, 201713 votes

Revert the MYMU period.

AirKingNeoApr 5, 20174 votes

Except for the new items. Those are good. Also yes do revert Rageblade so it doesn't suck for once.

Also there are a few mage changes that should stay. Annie's for example due to her ult being less INSTANT.

TerozuApr 6, 20172 votes

And Katarina, do not make me go back to that, she takes skill now, has a lot of outplay options, and is more than just qewr, did you get the reset? Now you can strategize, set things up, bait, so much better than old kat, but they still need to further nerf her shunpo time, in fact, I feel they need to up it a ton, but make the preparation reset stronger.

DJMason88Apr 6, 20175 votes

Uhh... Wrong class update

Colgate GatorApr 5, 201710 votes

It actually hurt me to read the title of this thread, mainly because it's true.

Bot lane is where failed mages go to die. They get pushed out of mid, go to bot lane and abuse it for as long as they can before they get nerfed, making them even worse in their original role.

Miku Hime samaApr 5, 201710 votes

Meddler himself personally abuses the failed mages in the support role, especially Brand. He's far too biased to look at this problem impartially, considering he's more inclined to leave them where they're at since it personally benefits himself.

BlåbæretApr 6, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miku Hime sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5T8ogxgo,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-04-05T17:21:05.590+0000)

Meddler himself personally abuses the failed mages in the support role, especially Brand. He's far too biased to look at this problem impartially, considering he's more inclined to leave them where they're at since it personally benefits himself.

I would also put Ghostcrawler into that equation.

Synnx7Apr 5, 201710 votes

FUCK LC$

HethaleanApr 5, 20177 votes

Yeah, I don't know why Malzahar is getting more nerfs when his play rate has fallen a lot, and his win rate / overall placement in the support role aren't even that good. It's not like his Voidlings are all that hard to escape that you need to reduce them to a HP where you can face tank them and just straight up kill them in response without having to run away.

I understand people don't like new things to the bot lane, or a break in what they expect from support which causes them to dislike anything like a mage that does damage there.. but come on.

Luckily for me, I have already got my Mastery 5 on him, so I have no further need to play him as a support main (just personal obsessions).

NymzoApr 5, 20179 votes

Malz is still picked at the LCS

That's why they are probably nerfing him.

HethaleanApr 5, 20172 votes

Oh, that would make sense. I am not all caught up on it. Guess I hadn't seen him that much, but I'm hit or miss which ones I watch anyway lol

It's just unfortunate that they do these periods of 'pro play balancing' which usually means nerf that never get relooked at after the pro scene is over.

Stevev45Apr 5, 201710 votes

He was never picked at LCS pre-rework. Seems like reverting his failed re-work would have also removed him from LCS.

PePsiLemoNNApr 5, 20175 votes

Patchly reminder

Probably first time you do this kind of thread . Probably won't do one next patch.

KarunamonApr 5, 201740 votes

Cmon man, the search box is right there.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2dLmejp4-patchly-reminder-to-meddler-that-the-support-role-isnt-a-dumpster-for-failed-mage-reworks

ChaosThiefApr 5, 201712 votes

And it's also rather unreliable at times, especially when trying to find a specific thread.

Emmy Cha0sApr 5, 20174 votes

Which would be a very valid point, but he probably never tried looking in the first place. You can't find something if you never look for it, regardless of how poorly organized everything is.

ChaosThiefApr 5, 20179 votes

I have tried looking for specific threads before and lemme tell ya... not fun.

TerozuApr 6, 20176 votes

ikr, I entered the name of my old post, and the my summoner name, got a bunch of irrelevant stuff...

DessemApr 5, 20175 votes

Remember when Repertoir would actually post on the forums and talk with people?

Man, sure scared him off.

DerfelApr 5, 201718 votes

Talk is cheap. He reworked ryze, quinn, kog, skarner, garen, malz and rengar. Nuff said.

DessemApr 5, 20178 votes

Your post just reminded me Repertoir hasn't shown himself since his latest reworks, and he's stopped engaging the community ever since... what, five months ago?

Ez dePazApr 5, 201716 votes

That really isn't a good history. At least Taric was good.

AnidanApr 6, 20172 votes

Thinking back, it reminds me of just how easily we can look over obvious faults with something so long as the developer is talking to us. Those reworks were problematic from the very beginning but Repertoire was talking so it wasn't viewed as "that bad." Particularly Kog, Skarner, and Malz. Those weren't really railed against until later, with only minor things coming up at that time despite what should've been immediately apparent flaws.

SociopathFriendApr 6, 20171 votes

Skarner was an experiment in asking for structures to control- something quite a few people have wanted as a concept. As was a mechanic where champions getting kills made them easier to shut-down (Garen) and a minion-controller (Malzahar).

It's not wrong to try and change things. It is wrong to immediately throw the changes away and go back to the old if they're not well received. Work forwards- not back. Skarner and Garen in particular will gain nothing from going backwards.

AWildAPKalistaApr 6, 20175 votes

However, how do we know which direction is ACTUALLY forwards? If you blatantly dumpster a champion, then change them in a way that just guts them again and trails even farther from healthy, doesn't this mean you've been working backwards the whole time? Isn't a failed design that creates more balance problems than it fixes inherently a backwards concept?

I feel like the refusal to admit failure and the refusal to revert said failures, are mere excuses to pump up their own arrogance.

ProvidenceNoxApr 6, 20174 votes

I just hope Riot can admit they messed Malzahar up and revert him. His old kit was by no means the healthiest, but they just made it worse. It's actually pretty laughable how they screwed up every goal they set out in his rework. When they reworked him they kept his ability with the least countrrplay, his ultimate, which was really his only problem anyway, then gave him a frustrating to play against, yet unreliable spellshield and an army of mindless cancer puppies that make laning hell for melees. His kit is more annoying than ever. Not to mention a huge reason they changed his w to voidlings in the first place was to keep jungle ad malz a unique and viable playstyle, yet they just gave up after they had trouble balancing it and just dumpstered ad malz instead. Old malz was my favorite champion, and Riot completely dropped the ball with the direction they took him in. Just look at where malzahar is played to see how bad they dumpstered him. Last I checked he played support 75% of games... and he was supposed to be a mid lane burst mage with a dot aspect. They need to revert him until they have better ways to change his kit.

SweedishGunnerApr 6, 20174 votes

I think his ult should remain as is. It's his identity, he's the anti-assasin/anti-diver mage. The only other one with an ult similar is Liss, but she feels completely different to play due to the rest of her kit.

resumedApr 5, 20173 votes

brand support flares up every time brand mid falls out of the meta why are people thinking it was the mage rework that made mid terrible and not the midlane meta thats if you dont outrange specific champions you straight up just die over and over.

brand gets murdered midlane because of champions like talon and yasuo being popular and gets outranged and outgunned by champions like syndra who can farm from relative safety

brand cant afford that and he never could

DerfelApr 5, 201713 votes

What the fuck are you talking about.

Brand lost a huge portion of his AP ratios in the update, he saw the bases of his Q and E gutted (especially his E, which right now at max rank does a whopping 150 damage with 35% ap scaling), he saw his only hard CC reduced in duration, he saw his primary harass in lane (his W + passive burn) gutted when his passive was reworked to do a negligible amount of damage (from 8% to 2%) unless you proc'd Riot's patented LAND 3 HITS GET A PRIZE. Do you know what happens when an immobile squishy primarily poke oriented mid laner loses most of the damage of his poke, most of the damage from his individual abilities and is forced to combo multiple skillshots in a game that gets progressively more mobile and more stat checky? Well you don't need to guess, you can see it right now. He's become support. Old Brand could always support but it was never his primary role, it was just easier to play and more importantly it was safer. There was always a reason to pick mid Brand because mid Brand actually benefited from gold and kills. Now? He does the same thing in any role with any amount of gold, almost all of his damage is tied to teamfight passive procs and since that damage is almost completely stagnant there's 0 reason to pick Brand in any role but the most income and experience starved.

chipndip1Apr 5, 20174 votes

Brand support was a considerable thing before the update, though. The update just made Brand support more comfy to do as an intended off-role.

Great MutaApr 5, 20172 votes

I'm tired of the mages at bot lane. I don't fear any of the adc's. I fear Sona and Lulu. They outdamage me early and as an adc, once the early game is lost, we're looking at 40+ mins before I get back in it.

ÇhåryzårdApr 5, 201730 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Muta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5T8ogxgo,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-04-05T15:10:23.234+0000)

I'm tired of the mages at bot lane. I don't fear any of the adc's. I fear Sona and Lulu. They outdamage me early and as an adc, once the early game is lost, we're looking at 40+ mins before I get back in it.

"I'm tired of the mages botlane"

-complains about sona and lulu -they're both actual supports

They're poke supports, with Sona having some sustain. So are Nami Morgana Bard Janna Soraka .

Annie Malzahar are botlane mages.

VerdadeApr 5, 20173 votes

Lulu is poke support? In which universe?

ModAcademy KaynApr 5, 20173 votes

She's within that Territory, though closer to disengage support. The last thing Lulu wants is to fight full healthed opponents.

ProfDrDeathApr 5, 20175 votes

Lulu is the jack-of-all-trades support, with a tool for almost every situation. She has some tools for disengaging (AoE slow, single-target speedboost) and protecting a single target (shield and ult), but all of her abilities have equal potential in a more offensive role: The speedboost can be used for helping engages, Polymorph is a good pick tool, Pix on an enemy grants True Sight (!), and Wild Growth on an engaging tank is great in-fight control. None of these abilities require Lulu to put herself in danger.

Contrast Janna: Tornado is fairly slow-moving and has a bad CC duration and range if not charged. Eye can only be used on allies. Offensive uses off Monsoon place Janna squarely in the middle of the fight. And her only pick tool is a W that slows. That's a the quintessential disengage support.

ÇhåryzårdApr 6, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Lulu is poke support? In which universe?

The League one.

If you don't consider her a poke support then what is she?

Is she a tank?

Does she sustain her laner?

Or does she spend most of her time poking the enemy?

If you answered no, no, and yes, she's a poke support. You could probably say specifically a poke/utility support.

Xivilai AnaxesApr 6, 201713 votes

Morgana Was a midlane mage way before she got thrown bot.

A top pick/ban too, I might add.

Supreme Senpai69Apr 6, 20174 votes

Blitzcrank was a top laner

10TicklerApr 6, 20178 votes

Morgana Karma Blitzcrank Fiddlesticks Lux Nidalee Annie are all champions created for other places who have been REGULARLY used as supports

AnidanApr 6, 201710 votes

Going to make a small correction: Annie and Morg (alongside Fiddles for the most part) were designed before the meta was solidified. They weren't 'designed' for mid or bot or anything else, they were designed to be taken wherever their kit could be used, more similarly to DotA heroes. I think even Lux was around from this era, though she could've come after the since-stagnant meta of 1-1-2+1 came into vogue.

This means neither of them were designed to be "midlane mages" because a lot of people went mid-lane. Ashe went mid-lane.

10TicklerApr 6, 20174 votes

The point is, they WEREN'T supports, they had actual roles that the filled. Then they ended up shunted into support until a few got to break free

ÇhåryzårdApr 6, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Various Felonies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5T8ogxgo,comment-id=000800000002,timestamp=2017-04-06T01:16:44.865+0000)

are all champions created for other places who have been REGULARLY used as supports

Morgana, Karma, and Blitz have become used more support than mid over the years and currently are considered Supports rather than midlaners. I HAVE seen them all mid, but if you ask someone what they consider those 3 champs they'll usually say 'support'

Like how Zyra was once a midlaner but then people found out she was godlike bot so Riot balanced her more for botlane which kinda made her weaker midlane, and now she's generally taken bot as a support as opposed to mid (but can still mid if you know what you're doing)

However the rest of them are taken mid a lot more often and are considered midlaners/junglers (fidd and nidalee). Tbh I haven't seen a Nid support in such a long time but I have seen a Fidd more recently.

I've also seen this new-ish phenomenon called the "adc support" where people take an adc as support. I'm talking Caits, Ashes, MF's. Seen all 3 recently and I don't think I've ever seen that before in my 2-3 years of playing unless the person was intending to troll, but even then I haven't seen it much.

10TicklerApr 6, 20174 votes

champions **created **for other places

CREATED FOR

I started in Season 3, fell in love with the Support role and began taking Nidalee Support. Establishing Lane dominance with Nuka-spears was easy, and the character did well with little/no AP because of higher bases at that time.

Miku Hime samaApr 5, 201710 votes

Sona has the lowest damage potential of the entire support class. Her lone damage spell is the single-weakest amongst the support class, her bases and scalings are outclassed by every other support and she lacks viable utility otherwise. Sona is the weakest support in the game and officially considered a troll pick.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9Pv7v6hv-im-repeatedly-griefed-for-picking-sona

SuperPewPewApr 6, 20174 votes

Well.. yeah.

I still pick her, and they insulted me for picking her since... S3, i think

Sona has extreme scaling with items, though. Her base numbers are veeeery low, though. Sadly, She can't have the same damage building utility than other poke champs that do build utility. (i.e Lulu, Nami, etc).

And the Bard Buff makes him outscale her, i think.

Miku Hime samaApr 6, 20175 votes

Sona has the lowest scaling of any support. She doesn't have extreme scaling "with items." Rather, artificially scaling items are extremely overpowered and Sona has to cheeze with them as a crutch to not be a liability. Which means, until she has her first completed artificial scaling by 20 minutes, because of shitty support budget and investing into Sightstone, Sona is a liability and a large number of her games are lost before the 20 minute mark as a result. This ALSO means that Sona falls off after 45 minutes, when she runs out of artificial item numbers to buy and the opposing team outscales her because they have real usable scalings on their actual abilities to pair alongside their items.

SuperPewPewApr 6, 20175 votes

That's true.

And that is IF you can manage to get all items by the 45 min mark :/