Good Morning. Nerf LeBlanc.
Topic.
Topic.
Leblanc is balanced. End of Topic
[{quoted}](name=Xyn VoidReaver,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjOjEGOK,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-04T15:30:01.176+0000)
Leblanc is balanced. End of Topic
I want whatever drugs you're taking.
Explain to me how she isnt balanced. She is the exact same as before with more damage and a much smaller window for execution. She has to stand next to her target for a decent amount of time to pull off her entire combo on them since her passive takes almost 2 seconds before you can proc it. Old leblanc could dump her entire load on you in under a second.
Shes balanced
Can you please explain why?
edit: Wow, I was downvoted for asking a question? Amazing gameplay sections, fucking love it.
Can you please explain why?
She is way too oppressive in lane, and definitely is deserving of nerfs. Even if she doesn't get any nerfs at all, she is sitting at a 50% ban rate, and is banned more frequently than 120+ champions in the roster right now. The fact her winrate is as high as it is, on one of the most difficult to play champions, this early after the rework, means that she is not in a healthy state. If anything, her winrate will only increase as people get better with her and play around her strengths.
If enemy plays safe and backs off the wave, they lose CS and are easy to chain.
If enemy tries for a push & roam strategy, LB can push harder and roam better.
If enemy tries to play anywhere near the wave to avoid getting chained, they will get tagged by W and will get zoned until sigil wears off, or risk getting a Q bounce.
If enemy tries to play safe and farm, she can jump over the wave and nuke them down.
Before, LB's weakness was twofold - she would have to spend mana on waveclearing if the enemy decided to push, OR if they stayed back out of W range, LB would have to waste a lot of mana for a W (no damage) -> Q -> E, with E and Q costing double the mana that they do now.
When I play LB it doesn't matter how safe the enemy plays, how tanky they build, or how much they farm. Unless their name is Ryze, there is almost nothing anyone can do in lane vs LB right now.
She always has the option to just sit and farm if she doesn't feel like fighting. The only bad lane matchup she has right now is Ryze. She currently has the highest% winrate for mid lane in higher tiers of play.
She is disgusting and is very deserving of nerfs. I don't like the rework either, but there is absolutely no question she is stronger than she was, by a lot. She has way too many options early game to get very fed and put everyone else behind.
Thank you. It's also ridiculous how I got downvoted for asking a question lmao.
Thank you. It's also ridiculous how I got downvoted for asking a question lmao.
It's ridiculous how I make this topic and get downvoted consistently by silvers who don't even bother to respond why, despite her being the #1 mid laner with one of the highest banrates of every single character, and she is unquestionably too strong right now, especially in higher elos.
[{quoted}](name=dakota saturn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjOjEGOK,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-04T16:46:56.655+0000)
It's ridiculous how I make this topic and get downvoted consistently by silvers who don't even bother to respond why, despite her being the #1 mid laner with one of the highest banrates of every single character, and she is unquestionably too strong right now, especially in higher elos.
You are pulling numbers out of your ass, that's why I'm downvoting you. 50% ban rate, highest win rate? No, not even. Out of the 48 mid laners there are, her ban rate is 27%, and her win rate is at 51.21% win rate. She's obnoxious, sure, but she's fairly easy to play against. Twitch has the highest winrate at 56.6% right now. For mid specifically, it's kog maw at 54.1%
You are pulling numbers out of your ass, that's why I'm downvoting you. 50% ban rate, highest win rate? No, not even. Out of the 48 mid laners there are, her ban rate is 27%, and her win rate is at 51.21% win rate. She's obnoxious, sure, but she's fairly easy to play against. Twitch has the highest winrate at 56.6% right now. For mid specifically, it's kog maw at 54.1%
champion.gg doesn't update in realtime. Lolalytics.com does.
https://s13.postimg.org/ijvqoe0vr/leblanc.png
Please explain why she has such a ridiculously high ban rate if she is easy to play against, as you are trying to argue. Are all players in diamond/masters just simply bad at the game, and you know better tham all of them?
Certainly someone in challenger isn't simply going to ban a champion because they are un-fun to play against. Do you think people get to the top rankings in the entire world by making retarded decisions like that?
Circled relevant information for ease.
Please feel free to find a champion with a higher winrate when mastered. I'll wait.
If you want to continue arguing that she is balanced and not even remotely out of line, I'll wait.
I'm arguing these points as the #3 player in the entire world for Mastery Points for the champion. There is almost nobody in the world who has played more LeBlanc than me.
EDIT : Dropped to #7. haven't played too much of the game since I'm sick of playing an OP champion, and sick of the community trying to argue she's not OP yet turn around and ban her every single game.
Consistency? Naw, not in my League.
[{quoted}](name=dakota saturn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjOjEGOK,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-04T18:05:25.185+0000)
champion.gg doesn't update in realtime. Lolalytics.com does.
https://s13.postimg.org/ijvqoe0vr/leblanc.png
Please explain why she has such a ridiculously high ban rate if she is easy to play against, as you are trying to argue. Are all players in diamond/masters just simply bad at the game, and you know better tham all of them?
Certainly someone in challenger isn't simply going to ban a champion because they are un-fun to play against. Do you think people get to the top rankings in the entire world by making retarded decisions like that?
Circled relevant information for ease.
Please feel free to find a champion with a higher winrate when mastered. I'll wait.
If you want to continue arguing that she is balanced and not even remotely out of line, I'll wait.
I'm arguing these points as the #3 player in the entire world for Mastery Points for the champion. There is almost nobody in the world who has played more LeBlanc than me.
The majority of players are in silver/bronze, so it's like, the people who prefer not playing against annoying people control the ban rate. People in diamond/masters make up a VERY small percentage of the league population.
You didn't circle the relevant information, you're circling what you think is relevant.
Win Rate for ALL ranks is 52%. Win rate for platinum + is 51%. The BEST LEBLANCS have a win rate of 63%. The best of a champion better have a high win rate with that champion. You trying to argue about high level play being the balancing point around a game where the majority of players are at a low level of play is invalid when lower level leblancs have a higher win rate than higher level leblancs.
And you're level 18.
The majority of players are in silver/bronze, so it's like, the people who prefer not playing against annoying people control the ban rate. People in diamond/masters make up a VERY small percentage of the league population.
You didn't circle the relevant information, you're circling what you think is relevant.
Win Rate for ALL ranks is 52%. Win rate for platinum + is 51%. The BEST LEBLANCS have a win rate of 63%. The best of a champion better have a high win rate with that champion. You trying to argue about high level play being the balancing point around a game where the majority of players are at a low level of play is invalid when lower level leblancs have a higher win rate than higher level leblancs.
And you're level 18.
Riot has said time and time again they balance the game for the highest ranks of players. The reason being - lower level players don't use champions anywhere near their full potential.
If they were to balance around low level players, Yi and Tryn would have been gutted a long time ago, along with other easy to play champions like Annie - these are the champions that many silver/bronze players complain about, despite rarely being seen in higher ranks.
Yes, you absolutely should balance around what the best players can do with a champion - reason being, that as time goes by, the strategies that higher players use eventually get picked up by lower level players by watching streams and whatnot. Riot generally balances around LCS and tournaments, hence why a lot of the nerfs/buffs they do don't tend to make sense to the average player.
But in every single elo, her winrate has increased substantially, she has become easier to carry with, easier to roam with, and easier to just simply win games with. She was a champion rarely seen before the rework, except by onetricks, or people specifically counterpicking one champion.
New LB does well against almost every single champion, and it's difficult, if not impossible, to shut her down in lane because of her multitude of options to either push the enemy out of lane or just shove them to turret while she roams.
Yes, I would argue that the opinion of diamond+ players should be taken into account for balancing, rather than listening to silver/bronze people complaining about how a champion is 'toxic' or 'unfun'. The lower level players don't know how to coordinate to shut down Yi/Tryn, while they're braindead easy to counter amongst teams that know what they are doing.
Low level players won't complain about LB because she is a high skillcap champion, but Orianna was out of control a few seasons ago. Low level players didn't understand why she was so complained about because they weren't using her anywhere near her full potential. LB is the same - a high skillcap champion that takes a lot of practice and game mechanics to do well with - but once a player masters her, she is just statistically better than almost every other champion in her role.
[{quoted}](name=dakota saturn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjOjEGOK,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-04T18:38:27.222+0000)
Riot has said time and time again they balance the game for the highest ranks of players. The reason being - lower level players don't use champions anywhere near their full potential.
If they were to balance around low level players, Yi and Tryn would have been gutted a long time ago, along with other easy to play champions like Annie - these are the champions that many silver/bronze players complain about, despite rarely being seen in higher ranks.
Yes, you absolutely should balance around what the best players can do with a champion - reason being, that as time goes by, the strategies that higher players use eventually get picked up by lower level players by watching streams and whatnot. Riot generally balances around LCS and tournaments, hence why a lot of the nerfs/buffs they do don't tend to make sense to the average player.
But in every single elo, her winrate has increased substantially, she has become easier to carry with, easier to roam with, and easier to just simply win games with. She was a champion rarely seen before the rework, except by onetricks, or people specifically counterpicking one champion.
New LB does well against almost every single champion, and it's difficult, if not impossible, to shut her down in lane because of her multitude of options to either push the enemy out of lane or just shove them to turret while she roams.
Yes, I would argue that the opinion of diamond+ players should be taken into account for balancing, rather than listening to silver/bronze people complaining about how a champion is 'toxic' or 'unfun'. The lower level players don't know how to coordinate to shut down Yi/Tryn, while they're braindead easy to counter amongst teams that know what they are doing.
As a silver 3 ranked person, yi and tryn haven't been problems, never had anyone complain other than occasionally someone mentioning how braindead they are to play.
I'm not saying you don't balance around high level players. What I said is your point about it being balanced that way doesn't mean a whole lot when lower level players do better win rate wise than high level players do. Her winrate is only slightly above the average. If it increased dramatically, it's because she got put into a better spot. That 63% win rate you mentioned is with the best of the best players out there for leblanc, and they should have a high win rate as her. They're the best.
As a silver 3 ranked person, yi and tryn haven't been problems, never had anyone complain other than occasionally someone mentioning how braindead they are to play.
I'm not saying you don't balance around high level players. What I said is your point about it being balanced that way doesn't mean a whole lot when lower level players do better win rate wise than high level players do. Her winrate is only slightly above the average. If it increased dramatically, it's because she got put into a better spot. That 63% win rate you mentioned is with the best of the best players out there for leblanc, and they should have a high win rate as her. They're the best.
The thing is - being in silver, of course you won't see LB as a problem. She is a high skillcap champion. That means other people in your elo who pick her aren't going to use her anywhere near her full potential.
She now has a higher skillfloor, and takes practice to not mess up her combos and to harass in lane. People in silver are going to fail more often than not, which brings her winrate% down overall - that winrate you're looking at is across all elos. People in silver don't understand concepts like roaming or harassing - they play the same way every single game, and don't understand many of the game's mechanics. If they did, they wouldn't be silver.
Let's look at other champions who are frequently complained about on forums - Lee Sin, Vayne, and Yasuo, all champions that I'd argue have a high skillcap/skillfloor, and also have a very high pickrate. Lee sin highest winrate - 56%. Vayne highest winrate - 58%. Yasuo highest winrate - 53%.
These are all relatively balanced champions, despite 99% of this forum believing they are OP and toxic.
Now look at LB's 60+% winrate, and tell me again she's balanced and doesn't need to be nerfed to hell and back.
Please tell me with a straight face.
[{quoted}](name=dakota saturn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjOjEGOK,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-04T19:10:49.912+0000)
The thing is - being in silver, of course you won't see LB as a problem. She is a high skillcap champion. That means other people in your elo who pick her aren't going to use her anywhere near her full potential.
She now has a higher skillfloor, and takes practice to not mess up her combos and to harass in lane. People in silver are going to fail more often than not, which brings her winrate% down overall - that winrate you're looking at is across all elos. People in silver don't understand concepts like roaming or harassing - they play the same way every single game, and don't understand many of the game's mechanics. If they did, they wouldn't be silver.
Let's look at other champions who are frequently complained about on forums - Lee Sin, Vayne, and Yasuo, all champions that I'd argue have a high skillcap/skillfloor, and also have a very high pickrate. Lee sin highest winrate - 56%. Vayne highest winrate - 58%. Yasuo highest winrate - 53%.
These are all relatively balanced champions, despite 99% of this forum believing they are OP and toxic.
Now look at LB's 60+% winrate, and tell me again she's balanced and doesn't need to be nerfed to hell and back.
Please tell me with a straight face.
Again, she does not have a 60+% winrate except from master level Leblanc mains, which its their main, if they don't do well above average as a master with it, how are they master?
Plat and higher has her win rates at 51%. When you add in the rest of the community, the win rate goes up. The rest of the community being these silvers and bronzes and golds.
Please read what I'm saying instead of repeatedly bringing up irrelevant information.
Again, she does not have a 60+% winrate except from master level Leblanc mains, which its their main, if they don't do well above average as a master with it, how are they master?
Plat and higher has her win rates at 51%. When you add in the rest of the community, the win rate goes up. The rest of the community being these silvers and bronzes and golds.
Please read what I'm saying instead of repeatedly bringing up irrelevant information.
You're not understanding what I am saying.
There is NO. OTHER. CHAMPION. IN. THE. ENTIRE. ROSTER. who has a 60+% amonst top level players. NONE. ZERO. LeBlanc is the ONLY ONE. She is a very obvious outlier amongst 130+ champions.
No champion should have a 60+% winrate among all top level players. This means just by virtue of playing her, you have a 60% chance of winning if you're playing her vs the best players in the entire world, playing their own best champions who they themselves have mastered.
Does it make more sense now?
Go on lolalytics. Find ONE champion besides LeBlanc who has a 60+% winrate among top level players. They don't exist. If LB is the ONLY ONE who has a 60%+ winrate, don't you think that's pretty indicative that she's a problem?
She is a high skillcap champion - when you look at the overall winrate, that includes people who just played her for the first time. For a champion like her, you have to look at what she can do once a player is proficient with her - same as Yasuo, Lee Sin and the like. LB is easily in the top 5 for most difficult to play champion in the game.
The site literally ranks her as the #1 champion overall right now. Let that sink in.
If you still don't get it after my explanation, then I'm sorry, and not to sound mean, but that is exactly why you're silver 3.
[{quoted}](name=dakota saturn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AjOjEGOK,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-05T13:38:02.035+0000)
You're not understanding what I am saying.
There is NO. OTHER. CHAMPION. IN. THE. ENTIRE. ROSTER. who has a 60+% amonst top level players. NONE. ZERO. LeBlanc is the ONLY ONE. She is a very obvious outlier amongst 130+ champions.
No champion should have a 60+% winrate among all top level players. This means just by virtue of playing her, you have a 60% chance of winning if you're playing her vs the best players in the entire world, playing their own best champions who they themselves have mastered.
Does it make more sense now?Go on lolalytics. Find ONE champion besides LeBlanc who has a 60+% winrate among top level players. They don't exist. If LB is the ONLY ONE who has a 60%+ winrate, don't you think that's pretty indicative that she's a problem?
She is a high skillcap champion - when you look at the overall winrate, that includes people who just played her for the first time. For a champion like her, you have to look at what she can do once a player is proficient with her - same as Yasuo, Lee Sin and the like. LB is easily in the top 5 for most difficult to play champion in the game.
The site literally ranks her as the #1 champion overall right now. Let that sink in.
If you still don't get it after my explanation, then I'm sorry, and not to sound mean, but that is exactly why you're silver 3.
I don't think you even know what you're talking about. http://current.lolalytics.com/champion/Darius/Top/ Found that real quick, and there are several that are just on the bridge of that 60%.
In no means am I saying she's weak. But your entire argument is "Win rate among mains" and "No one else has 60% win rate among top mains" When darius does. And we all know darius is just fine. Unless you're going to call him broke too.
I get your explanation, it's just wrong, and based off of nothing that proves anything.
And if you're going to insult someone who played ranked, to get silver specifically, at least be ranked, not level 18.
I don't think you even know what you're talking about. http://current.lolalytics.com/champion/Darius/Top/ Found that real quick, and there are several that are just on the bridge of that 60%.
In no means am I saying she's weak. But your entire argument is "Win rate among mains" and "No one else has 60% win rate among top mains" When darius does. And we all know darius is just fine. Unless you're going to call him broke too.
I get your explanation, it's just wrong, and based off of nothing that proves anything.
And if you're going to insult someone who played ranked, to get silver specifically, at least be ranked, not level 18.
nerf leblanc
no argument? just garbage waste of space thread? ok
She needs either raw damage nerf or tether range nerf to previous range or tether not proccing 2 times because its impossible to get out of that ridiculous range. Yes she has more counterplay but she now has waveclear so the extreme damage buffs werent needed.