Why is every thread criticizing the assassin update immediately downvoted?

dakota saturn··35 votes·2,361 views

Some assassins were either crippled by damage nerfs (Akali, Zed), or completely stripped of their identities and forced into a new role(LeBlanc). Some were done well, adding counterplay while keeping playstyle intact (Kata, Talon).

People who played the aforementioned champs gave feedback during their development cycle on PBE, and were consequently ignored.

I'm cognizant of the fact nobody liked where assassins were in season 5 except the assassin himself, but there should be a middle ground so that they can be counterplayed, but not completely useless where they can't even duel an ADC.

How are we supposed to have a discussion about this if every thread that raises issues is downvoted?

inb4 a few downvotes and no replies

73 Comments

Edge of Daybreak16 votes

Most of the people downvoting realize they are serious nerfs and they hated those champions before so they will downvote any attempt to make the garbage ones playable again. You have to be ignorant as hell or just full of blind hate if you think that most of them deserved these kinds of changes in a game where other classes now do their job better than them without the risk.

See that guy saying deathmark did 1800 damage to him something that would require zed to deal around 3600 damage to you in the duration which is mathematically impossible. That's the kind of person who is downvoting most of the threads.

dakota saturn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bloodborn Knight,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dTAFm64G,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2016-11-10T16:26:04.082+0000)

Most of the people downvoting realize they are serious nerfs and they hated those champions before so they will downvote any attempt to make the garbage ones playable again. You have to be ignorant as hell or just full of blind hate if you think that most of them deserved these kinds of changes in a game where other classes now do their job better than them without the risk.

See that guy saying deathmark did 1800 damage to him something that would require zed to deal around 3600 damage to you in the duration which is mathematically impossible. That's the kind of person who is downvoting most of the threads.

Thank you for this. Good to understand the entire world isn't completely insane.

GULAG 4 U3 votes

Oh that's people treat Yasuo lol

YumaS2Astral1 votes

Blind hate aside, Yasuo is a poorly designed champion, and as long as it continues to be, people will hate him and continue to ban him.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Why exactly is he a poorly designed champion? Don't come up with "he's annoying to play against". <- that's subjective matter.

YumaS2Astral1 votes
  1. He gains too many free stats, and gets to become tankier with his buildpath.

For example, doubled crit chance; Most champions need to get three crit items, and even then they can only gain 80% crit chance at best, by doing that. Yasuo, on other hand, gains 100% crit chance just by getting 2 items. He already gets 100% crit chance with just a item 3046 and a item 1018 early! Yes, Yasuo's crits have their damage reduced, but that doesn't matter that much, as he gets to crit way more often when compared to other champions.

His ult also gives him free armor penetration. Although it only applies to bonus armor, and has been recently nerfed to apply only to his crits, this still makes a lot more difficult for tanks to fight Yasuo, or to survive against him. Itemizing HP may help, but not once Yasuo builds lifesteal.

All of those free stats also allow Yasuo to have a way more flexible build path, since for example, with the armor penetration on his ult, Yasuo doesn't have to build a item 3035, unlike other carries. He also doesn't have to build more than 2 crit items, and thus can focus on getting more raw AD and lifesteal from items like item 3156 or item 3053 or item 3072, all which make him a lot more tankier and harder to fight. Basically, Yasuo is allowed to invest on survivability because his kit gives him a lot of natural damage.

Let's not even talk about his passive, which essentially gives to Yasuo more effective HP.

Oh, and because his Q cooldown is tied to attack speed and his E has a instant cooldown (only being limited by on-target cooldown) Yasuo doesn't have to itemize for cooldown reduction either. His Q cooldown get short by building attack speed which is a stat that he benefits a lot from. Only his ult benefits from CDR and it already has a very short cooldown.

  1. He is completely resourceless

He simply doesn't have to manage any resource. And unlike most other resourceless champions, he doesn't have to build cooldown reduction (as I explained above, his Q's cooldown scales with attack speed, and his ult has a short cooldown already). This makes him a lot harder to fight early game because he can win lane just because you don't have the resources to fight him. He also has a lot more freedom to stay in lane because he only has to back when he is very low on HP. Champions like Pantheon, Malphite, Fizz, Malzahar, or Jax, could have a much better time against Yasuo in lane, but unfortunately, they are mana hungry, so Yasuo can win against them simply because he can outsustain and outlast them, even if they are technically considered counters to him (That's why I consider Yasuo to have no actual counters, as he can win every single lane possible in one way or another).

There is a reason why most resourceless champions have strong early games. They are usually balanced because they tend to fall off late game when other champions can start to better manage their resources or they have better ways to deal with the resourceless champions. But in Yasuo's case, he doesn't fall off. He actually scales incredibly well into mid/late game.

  1. He is way more mobile than he should be

Most people say Yasuo has infinite dashes, which is false because his dashes are limited by a static cooldown early, and are limited by the amount of nearby enemy targets. This doesn't make him any less mobile, he still has outstanding mobility early because he can abuse your minions to get in and get out whenever he wants. He can use this to trade with you and give you no chance to fight back, especially if you are melee. For example, if he has his tornado ready, he can dash, get to you, knockup you, auto, and get out, giving you no chance to damage him at all. Even if you damage him, you still have to deal with his shield, so he is incredibly hard to fight early. That's why Yasuo, despite being good against rangeds, is also a nightmare to fight against even as a melee.

  1. He completely negates the range advantage of many champions

Usually, being a ranged should give you the advantage against a melee. Even if you have the tools to gap the close against a ranged, you may still be able to be kited if you mess up. For example, if Zed doesn't use his shadows properly, a ranged will still kite him. This is not the case with Yasuo. He gets to close the gap on you with his E, which hardly has a cooldown, and can abuse his tornado to CC you and have a chance to close the gap. He also usually builds Frozen Mallet, an item that makes him even harder to kite, because he slows you and even if you hit him from distance, the extra HP makes him have a better chance to survive.

  1. Unlike other melee carries, Yasuo has utility

Usually, champions like Fiora or Tryndamere are not allowed to have hard CC because otherwise they would be broken (Fiora has a stun on her W, but it is extremely situtional). This is not case with Yasuo. He has the second best CC in the game on his Q (which is a suspension). Even though it is a skillshot, it is very spammable, costs no resource, and has a low cooldown, in addition to a decent range. Yasuo can actually make it targeted with the help of his E. Yasuo can zone you early with the premise of knocking you up (which is even more dangerous after 6 because he has his ult).

He also has his windwall, which can block even many ultimates, and makes fighting against him as a ranged even harder because he is blocking your auto-attacks.

  1. Yasuo is weak when behind

If Yasuo doesn't manage to snowball, he is weak and can't do much. He has utility but not that much to the point that he is useful even when behind, for example, like a Lulu mid would. He also gets to do little damage and be too squishy if he can't get his items. He is very feast and famine, not that much when compared to champions like old Kat, or Riven, but still, he is feast or famine.

  1. Yasuo abuses items too well

Phantom Dancer: He abuses the damage reduction passive like no tomorrow. He already has decent waveclear (making Statikk Shiv less of a need on him) and is already difficult to outduel. With this item it is almost impossible to outduel him as any champion. There is a reason why the majority of Yasuos rush this item. It even gives him a lot of stats, and makes it even hard to escape from him or kite him.

Statikk Shiv: Although most Yasuos build Phantom Dancer, he can build this if he wants to have even better waveclear. It also gives him burst, and because of his passive which gives him double crit chance, Yasuo gets even more chances to crit with this item's passive.

  1. Yasuo is completely balanced around his skillcap

Like Azir and Kalista, it is almost impossible to make Yasuo balanced for lower tiers or players which are less skilled with him, without completely breaking up him on higher tiers, or at the hands of people which have already mastered him.

This also means that a very good Yasuo is a god and an even below average Yasuo is garbage.

  1. Yasuo is too team composition reliant

Unless you have knockups (other than Yasuo's himself) on his team, Yasuo find himself too reliant on hitting his Q to engage. However, if he manages to get champs like Malphite or Orianna as his partners, he is obnoxious, because not only you have to watch out for the champions themselves, but you also have to watch out for Yasuo.

  1. Yasuo is indeed a case of failed design

Yasuo was designed to be a melee carry at bot lane, replacing the ADC. That's why he has been given so many anti-ranged tools, in addition to making him resourceless. However, those tools have been abused to make Yasuo an obnoxious solo laner.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Wel that was one large post, i'll read it later because i don't have the time atm. Thxs for your time.

Oglaf7 votes

Because 99% of those post are literally just "OMG RITO U RUIN MAH FAVOURITE CHAMPP!!!111two".

Sona x Rubick5 votes

Shaco rework is an insult from riot to every shaco mains, forcing them to leave the game. it's just awful

"what? what is shame? what is that word?"-riot

Forcing him to be AP, illuminati boxes are so TERRIBLE OMFG, and his whole kit was olafed with just illuminati boxes as buffs.

Astôlfo5 votes

lul crappy ADC/mage players that'd rather cry and whine than learn how to play what's not to love?

IcyPepper4 votes

Because people disagree with opinions they don't like.

It's pretty basic.

ItsOrval4 votes

Because its been 1 fucking day. There is no way you know how to play that champ to its full extent.

Adrian Blackbear2 votes

I was going to say the same thing, but you beat me to it!

dakota saturn1 votes

{quoted}

Because its been 1 fucking day. There is no way you know how to play that champ to its full extent.

The thing is though - the Kata and Talon reworks actually feel good to play, as does Kha. Their kits are strong, high risk high reward, and are true to their assassin namesake. Right from day 1, their new kits just sync'd and came together well. I'm pretty certain most would agree these were good reworks. Rengar too I suppose.

But for LB, they take a champion, completely change their role, add a bunch of arbitrary delays, and REMOVE her deceptive abilities and take away control of them, and say this is supposed to make her more deceptive?

How in any way shape or form is she more deceptive now than before?

Seenan2 votes

[{quoted}](name=dakota saturn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dTAFm64G,comment-id=00120001,timestamp=2016-11-11T01:32:03.920+0000)

The thing is though - the Kata and Talon reworks actually feel good to play, as does Kha. Their kits are strong, high risk high reward, and are true to their assassin namesake. Right from day 1, their new kits just sync'd and came together well. I'm pretty certain most would agree these were good reworks. Rengar too I suppose.

But for LB, they take a champion, completely change their role, add a bunch of arbitrary delays, and REMOVE her deceptive abilities and take away control of them, and say this is supposed to make her more deceptive?

How in any way shape or form is she more deceptive now than before?

There was absolutely no way she was deceptive before, unless people actually knew how to mind-game with her clone. Now, she can mindgame with her ult more often. Only thing Leblanc needs fixing is a smaller delay or a delay that scales down through the game.

dakota saturn1 votes

{quoted}

There was absolutely no way she was deceptive before, unless people actually knew how to mind-game with her clone. Now, she can mindgame with her ult more often. Only thing Leblanc needs fixing is a smaller delay or a delay that scales down through the game.

Well - good- leblanc players actually DID mindgame with the clone. I made use of my clone every. single. time it came up, whether it was running into fog of war and sending it at the enemy, checking a brush, or running in a different direction when escaping and pretending to be the clone, while I make the actual clone run like a person. It actually let you see who was experienced at the champ vs. someone who's played her 10 times.

None of this you can do anymore because it's all automated. The 2.5s clones don't last long enough to micro and they already run around anyway - and the RR isn't controllable at all. What's the difference between a seasoned veteran and a first time LB? Absolutely nothing. The clones move exactly the same for both.

How can you possibly think she's more deceptive when she doesn't actually -do- any of it and it's all automatically done for her, in the exact same way, every single time?

TeCoolMage1 votes

Because you can choose when and where the clone is, and have constant global pressure.

And there's nothing wrong with making a champion easier, balance and counterplay is all that matters, not the elitist 200 member society behind a champion. I understand saying her illusion doesn't 'trick' as well because of how it acts, but saying the fact newer players can pick her up better is a terrible argument

Anyways LeBlanc's delay's aren't even that big if you consider the fact her E used to take the exact same amount of time to proc.

Your Real Mom2 votes

My guess is the people downvoting are those of us who desperately wanted to see change and new gameplay in the new season. Some of us were getting tired of the meta and needed these changes to keep the game interesting and as kind of a refreshment and something fun and new to learn.

Rossendale2 votes

It's called people disagreeing with other's opinions, OP.

Oh and PBE is for catching out game-breaking bugs, not balance. If you disagree, I'd like to remind you of the Juggernaut rework where PBE said that Skarner felt on the weak side. You know, the same Skarner who needed to be hotfixed within 24 hours of release because he had a winrate of over 60%.

dakota saturn1 votes

{quoted}

It's called people disagreeing with other's opinions, OP.

Oh and PBE is for catching out game-breaking bugs, not balance. If you disagree, I'd like to remind you of the Juggernaut rework where PBE said that Skarner felt on the weak side. You know, the same Skarner who needed to be hotfixed within 24 hours of release because he had a winrate of over 60%.

I mean that's cool to disagree, but people have played these characters, sometimes for years. Then suddenly they can't do any of the things that made the player get attached to that character in the first place.

When an assassin can't even kill the unfed ADC farming by himself in bot lane with no wards or support and dies because of stupid delays and damage nerfs, WHY DO WE HAVE THE ASSASSIN CLASS IN THE FIRST PLACE? What is their role if they can't kill the most defenseless, immobile class in the entire game?

Imagine you play Darius because you like being a tanky badass who can execute people. But instead, Riot decided his R is now toxic, and now instead of an execute, it is a targetted shield on a minion. You try to say "WTF Riot what am I supposed to do with this?", and are downvoted and told "LAWL YOU USE IT TO DENY CS NOOB GET GUD". You didn't pick Darius to deny CS and shield minions. You picked him to fk sht up. I didn't pick LeBlanc to dance around with useless clones that die instantly before they can deceive anyone.

That's what this is, basically.

ragdollomega1 votes

Well the whole point of the class update was to make assassins less reliable in assassinating, but have more tools to work with. Plus at least a few of them have received healthier, better laning tools. There's gonna have to be a trade off somewhere. Most of the kit changes achieve these and now it's number tweaking from there.

The days of instagibbing should hopefully be gone and it's going to take time to adjust even for the experienced players.

And hopefully, in the future, riot will realize they need to implement a marksman update 2.0 that curbs some of the issues that the previous marksman update caused.

dakota saturn2 votes

[{quoted}](name=A99 Steaksauce,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dTAFm64G,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-11-10T20:27:50.482+0000)

Well the whole point of the class update was to make assassins less reliable in assassinating, but have more tools to work with. Plus at least a few of them have received healthier, better laning tools. There's gonna have to be a trade off somewhere. Most of the kit changes achieve these and now it's number tweaking from there.

The days of instagibbing should hopefully be gone and it's going to take time to adjust even for the experienced players.

And hopefully, in the future, riot will realize they need to implement a marksman update 2.0 that curbs some of the issues that the previous marksman update caused.

The thing though is that in lane, LB is more oppressive than ever. If you land a single chain on someone, they're going to get chunked for 1/3 their HP or more - and for much, MUCH less mana than it used to cost. I find her laning to be much better than it was all through season 6. She's almost as oppressive as she was with the silence in lane because of her flexibility with combos and waveclear. If their goal was to make the laner feel less crappy about being against her, they didn't do a good job.

This is proof that she -CAN- be a great champion late game, but she scales so horridly because of forced delays in her kit, that even if you go 4/0 in laning, she still feels like a potato in teamfights.

All they'd need to do is increase her clones' active time, and decrease the passive time as level increases, and she'll be in a pretty good spot tbh.

ragdollomega1 votes

Then shouldn't the opposing laner be able to fight LB in the time that it takes for her chain to proc? If that's not the case then I could certainly see changes coming in on that. As for the late game, only time will tell and if changes like that are needed then I'm sure Riot will implement them.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Once marksmen stop instagibbing everyone after laning phase you get my like. Until this day riot can go fuck themselves. Without a decent adc it is basically impossible to win fights anymore. It is so sad that they can easily send ADCs now to prevent me from splitpushing when they usually would just get towerdived by any bruiser.

ragdollomega2 votes

I just hope that Riot is actually ABLE to realize that they need a second look at the marksman changes. Sooner rather than later hopefully.

Ralanr2 votes

Mainly because a lot of them are complaints that the rework failed and that they should be reverted.

It's like, the second day. They could at least be constructive without bashing everything and making people think all assassin mains are whiny brats who only liked what made assassins problems in the first place.

Kotex1 votes

Better question is why the worth of ANY topic defined by how many votes in a single direction it receives?

No forum should work that way.

Sup im Carrier1 votes

Zed didnt get a damage nerf... [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Sona x Rubick1 votes

he lost a shit ton of AD except if he kills a target that has 300 AD or more.

his E was also nerfed.

XeroKimo1 votes

I'm sure his e is only nerfed early, but buffed late

Seenan1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dTAFm64G,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2016-11-10T16:06:03.299+0000)

he lost a shit ton of AD except if he kills a target that has 300 AD or more.

his E was also nerfed.

Tbh, I'd say he hardcounters Jhin now. Jhin will prob have like 700 AD, and 15% of that would be siphoned.

Handin Out Naps2 votes

That's not a hard counter lol. Sure he will get a shit ton of ad from killing jhin, but he will still get exhausted every teamfight and made useless.

Seenan1 votes

{quoted}

That's not a hard counter lol. Sure he will get a shit ton of ad from killing jhin, but he will still get exhausted every teamfight and made useless.

Same can be said for every assassin. Fact of the matter is, if that Jhin is alone for a second and gets deleted by Zed through ult, he'll be taking a nice 50+ AD from him.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Not in any decent elo. There will be a janna, nami shielding him, healing him, exhausting you. No way Zed will assassinate ANYONE in a teamfight. Maybe solo him but that's it. Zed is in the gutter since the beginning of season 6 and i hate all the boards and riot for it. All they would have need to make him feel less opressive would have been to revert the range buff on his W. It was buffed to er 1400 or 1600 which ofc made him very opressive spamming his WEQ everytime you tried to CS. With lower range it would have been the proper punishment for the enemy for missstepping. But now? Every anivia just RE chunks have your health away with no counterplay. Same with syndra and others. Sure if you get jungler help and can snowball= great and you might be useful but otherwise rather no.

Seenan1 votes

{quoted}

Not in any decent elo. There will be a janna, nami shielding him, healing him, exhausting you. No way Zed will assassinate ANYONE in a teamfight. Maybe solo him but that's it. Zed is in the gutter since the beginning of season 6 and i hate all the boards and riot for it. All they would have need to make him feel less opressive would have been to revert the range buff on his W. It was buffed to er 1400 or 1600 which ofc made him very opressive spamming his WEQ everytime you tried to CS. With lower range it would have been the proper punishment for the enemy for missstepping. But now? Every anivia just RE chunks have your health away with no counterplay. Same with syndra and others. Sure if you get jungler help and can snowball= great and you might be useful but otherwise rather no.

Yeah, I didn't say hardcounters Jhin and whatever support he has. I said Jhin. Anivia can't chunk as hard anymore and they're changing her slightly next patch too.

TeCoolMage1 votes

I wouldn't call her changes 'slight' as they're pretty huge, speaking as an anivia main.

Anivia can't chunk at all now without being in point blank range, paired with good ally engage/cc, or in an enclosed space so she sucks in laning phase now. Her late game's much better tho when she's in a team.

Only Play Darius1 votes

Because the boards are Mage/ADC mains who don't want Riot to buff assassins even if they are weak

Ralanr2 votes

Whenever the boards are in full downvote mode people suddenly say it "Full of X mains who don't want to see Y strong"

Bisaknosp1 votes

well they all take less skill (except kata) and are more cancer thats all i have to say about this 'great' assassin rework

GULAG 4 U3 votes

"they all take less skill" Where's the problem?

"they are more cancer"

They aren't.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

Zed, crippled by damage nerfs? Alrighty then. IMO, Leblanc's identity got way more defined. She used to be, "Oh look, an AP burst champ who has that one passive" now she's "My brain hurts in this lane", becoming the deceiver she was meant to be.

dakota saturn1 votes

{quoted}

Zed, crippled by damage nerfs? Alrighty then. IMO, Leblanc's identity got way more defined. She used to be, "Oh look, an AP burst champ who has that one passive" now she's "My brain hurts in this lane", becoming the deceiver she was meant to be.

The problem with her is that the tools they gave her to deceive with aren't effective in doing their job. One of my favorite things to do as LB was being low hp, and baiting people while juking in the jungle. I'd send my clone into a bush while I'd sneak out the other way, or throw my clone into a teamfight into their ADC, and since it didn't blow up immediately, it was effective.

The clones and deceptive tools that LB has now either don't last long enough, or the lack of control and fragility makes them so much less satisfying than they used to be.

LB's old passive was so powerful and they just watered it down so much in her kit - that was what made her the deceiver, and it's gone.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

Don't you have more control with Leblanc now?

dakota saturn2 votes

{quoted}

Don't you have more control with Leblanc now?

Absolutely not. Between the delays on blinkback and her dmg, and her main clone RR being uncontrollable, and the other ones only lasting 2.5s and only during your combo, a lot of LB is auto pilot now.

Irelia Bot1 votes

Another champ to look at is akali and her shroud.

They added a blink but effectively nerfed every single way the players had been using it due to the pink ward counter making it not ideal for stealth but still good for the slow and speed boost.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Meh i hate LeBlancs new playstyle. Yes she is very strong right now (atleast it seems like she is) but the fact alone i can't do my favorite micro intensive combo anymore really saddens me. It was one of the few combos to show you were a great leblanc and not just some gargabe player who got fed by trash in midlane. Maybe i get back to her if i play her more often but right now she feels very meh to play. And idk if her ult can really be used to "deceive" someone because it is clearly visible it is NOT the real leblanc and just a shadow.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

What combo was that? Also, I believe that the Leblanc clone your create looks exactly like Leblanc, looking only different to you and teammates.

The Deckowner1 votes

It is pronably salty adc mains.

TeCoolMage1 votes

I get carried consistently by talon and rengar players now, but I'm still at a state where I can duel them and it feels fair (because I have hard CC but the enemy team usually doesn't :PP).

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

I still don't get zed rework being a nerf unless they patched in something else? He never maxed w early in the first place so the ulti gives more easier as long as you actually put effort into it. And late as long as it isn't an on-hit adc you'll get even more.

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